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2018-07-31, 07:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as well?
Based on this debate in the Class & Geekery Thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...neapple/page28
I was arguing that Belkar was doing a simultaneous (or as good as) Stake & Behead.
The SRD doesn't specifically list beheading alone as "automatically killing a vampire".
The closest is this bit of the Vorpal Weapon property:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...ons.htm#vorpal
Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off.
It would be interesting to hear The Giant's take on it.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2018-07-31, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
Well, since Belkar's stake hand is free in cutting off ponchela's head, with no conclusive evidence of where the stake was, it looks like in OoTS that decapitation does kill vampires permanently.
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2018-07-31, 07:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
By RAW, it doesn't.
"Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent)."
So Cindy is instead forced to assume gaseous form. She now has two hours to return to her coffin or else she'll be destroyed. "If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed."
As far as we know, she doesn't have a coffin though, so she's a goner. In 2 hours she'll be utterly destroyed.
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2018-07-31, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
Vampires that have assumed gaseous form usually have visible eyes though:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html
On the other side of the coin - even if a permanently destroyed vamp's body automatically turns to dust/mist, in OOTS it usually leaves stuff behind:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html
So, if Ponchula was "properly dead" - where's her armour and holy symbol? They ought to be at Belkar's feet.Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-07-31 at 07:54 AM.
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2018-07-31, 08:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
If you look at this, you'll see that the vampire Roy hit also didn't drop anything: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html
Maybe a vampire drops all items once time runs out (so 2 hours)? Another example of vampires not dropping anything: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html
Malack was destroyed in sunlight, while the others will be destroyed in 2 hours, so I suppose that might explain why they didn't drop their items (assuming they don't actually have coffins, that is).
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2018-07-31, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
Lack of a coffin should do for her in about two hours. The mist was floating out of the frame after the Belkster cut off her head.
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2018-07-31, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
My initial thought was that the mist was the same kind of mist that was seen immediately after Malack's destruction - but based on the lack of "stuff left behind" it does seem more probable that Belkar just reduced her to 0 hit points, with the beheading being how it was done.
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2018-07-31, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
It seems clear to me that vampires reduced to 0 HP without a coffin instantly dust and Rich is just ignoring/retconning how Malack left items behind for the sake of not having the scene cluttered.
As for the beheading, I just assumed it to be an artistic representation of "doing a lot of damage."
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2018-07-31, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
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2018-07-31, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
It counts as destroying the body only if there's a stake through their heart. Otherwise, it's just a graphic way of reducing them to 0 (or negative) HP. Anything that would otherwise count as "destroying the body" is useless if there's no stake (except the other methods to kill a vampire, such as sunlight or running water).
Also, Belkar didn't fill the vampire's mouth with holy wafers, which is mentioned as a necessary part of destroying their body by decapitation, so it's pretty clear that was not what happened.
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2018-07-31, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
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2018-07-31, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
Last edited by Gift Jeraff; 2018-07-31 at 11:22 AM.
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2018-07-31, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
OK, my headcanon is now that they weren't destroyed, but that they misted as a consequence of dropping below 0 HP, as per RAW (and that that mist is slightly different from the voluntary mist because comic is a visual medium), and that the vampire spirits are now trapped in that form until they reach the coffins they know they don't have - thus they now have two hours left of existence in which to contemplate their lives as they know their time comes slowly to an end. And I'm fine with that.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-07-31 at 11:15 AM.
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2018-07-31, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
Well, I think we'll have our answer soon enough.
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2018-07-31, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
I'm gonna say stakes'll do it.
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2018-07-31, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
This is almost all correct, except that it's not a retcon with Malack because Malack does have a coffin, it's just not within range. So he follows the normal vampire rules, while the vampires created by the quick-rise spell (i.e. all the others seen so far) are dead as soon as they hit 0 hp (like most undead). I'm treating it like it is the bond with the coffin that keeps them from dying the moment they hit 0 hp the way most other undead do, rather than an inherent property of their vampire body.
And yes, that's so I don't have to draw a whole bunch of empty armor/robes in every scene.Rich Burlew
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2018-07-31, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-07-31, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
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2018-07-31, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
Well...
If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, [the vampire] automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed.
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2018-07-31, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
I'm treating it like it is the bond with the coffin that keeps them from dying the moment they hit 0 hp the way most other undead do.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2018-07-31, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
It makes a difference because it means the undead creature is ultimately destroyed and the trapped soul is instantly freed, thus Resurrection is possible 2 hours sooner. It would have also made a huge difference if there was a spell that instantly revives force-misted vampires, which is exactly the kind of thing that you would expect to find in Malack's staff.
EDIT: And narratively it makes a difference because now there's no question as to whether or not a slain quick-rise vampire gained a coffin off-panel. If they're dust, they're gone for good.Last edited by Gift Jeraff; 2018-07-31 at 04:25 PM.
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2018-07-31, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
Going by the "you do not yet have a sarcophagus"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html
it's possible for them to gain a coffin and a bond - but it may be a somewhat time-consuming process.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2018-07-31, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
That's what I'm saying. Now that we have official confirmation that the vampires are being dusted it shuts down any speculation that they gained a sarcophagus off-panel.
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2018-07-31, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
I consider myself an author first, a GM second and a player third.
The three skill-sets are only tangentially related.
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2018-07-31, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
The curious thing about that is that it meant Malack wasn't gone-forever when Laurin said "Eye for an eye. Malack's never returning. Neither's his killer." Given that she can (and does) teleport all over the place, including to Bleedingham and back, surely she could have fetched his coffin...
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2018-07-31, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
That only applies when reduced to gaseous form. Sunlight kills it outright, rather than just inflicting hit point damage - so does running water:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm
Slaying a Vampire
Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion.Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-07-31 at 06:09 PM.
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2018-07-31, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
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2018-07-31, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
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2018-08-01, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
The vampires don't have graves in the first place, so that wouldn't work either. There are no rules for this situation in core 3.5 because the "instant raise" spell Malack had is entirely Rich's home-brew, so whatever method Malack planned to use to link Durkula with a sarcophagus is similarly home-brewed--and I suspect the Giant hasn't actually bothered to figure out what that is, because it's simply not relevant to the story he's told thus far.
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2018-08-01, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do OOTS vampires die permanently to beheading alone, or must stakes be used as we
So Malack left stuff behind because he was killed by the sun, but if was killed by being reduced to 0hp he would have misted out to try and reach his coffin with his stuff. Meanwhile quick-raised vampires mist when dying (and so don't leave anything behind) but since they don't have a coffin they instantly croak as well.
Do I have that right?
Does it mean all of Durkon's stuff is destroyed?Forum Wisdom
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