New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Gear Treadmill?

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    lord pringle's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    North California
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Gear Treadmill?

    Continuing my trend of getting into things years and years too late, I've finally decided to actually try 4e. Everything seems well laid out and easy to learn.
    My one concern is if there is a strict gear progression that must be monitored like WbL in 3.X. If there is, does anyone have any house rules to detach that so I don't have to worry about counting every coin handed out?
    If you need me somewhere, don't hesitate to PM me. I have bad mental health days sometimes, so if I vanish that's probably why. PMs will help break me out of that.
    ~~~~~
    Games I'm Running:
    Digimon: Recollections (OoC)
    Fate/Grand Order: Chaldean Irregulars (OoC)
    ~~~~~
    Kyoko-atar by Coronalwave

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
    LibraryOgre's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gear Treadmill?

    There was an alternate rule called Inherent Bonuses, with the idea that you'd stop using gear and just get the appropriate bonuses.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ThePurple's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Shameland (4e Forums)

    Default Re: Gear Treadmill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There was an alternate rule called Inherent Bonuses, with the idea that you'd stop using gear and just get the appropriate bonuses.
    Inherent bonuses as presented in Dark Sun were actually meant to be used in sync with the normal gear system. They made you less reliant upon gear in order to progress along the treadmill but it was specifically designed to give you those bonuses 1-3 levels after you'd be getting them through gear normally. It also didn't provide all of the other non-enhancement bonus stuff that gear provides, which adds up a lot towards the epic end of the game.

    As to the OP, I don't track money in the games I run. If it costs enough that the players would need to save up to buy it, then the only way for them to get it is via adventuring (since the exploding prices make it such that anything beyond the heroic tier starts becoming worth the entire GDP of a nation). All I do is track gear and the only way for players to get gear is via adventuring. I compensate a bit by giving one additional level+1 item to the party per level, however, and, quite often, when players have a preferred weapon, I'll just level up their existing weapon (via something like "exposure to the dying X has imbued your weapon with greater strength; it is now +2 rather than +1") rather than provide straight gear drops.
    4e Homebrew: Shadow Knight, Scout
    roll20: Kitru

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Gear Treadmill?

    The original rule is that a party of 5 should receive 4 items per level (of character level +1, +2, +3, +4), and gold equal to 2x an item of their level (so a level 1 party would receive 360gp*2=720gp). At the time, there was also a rule about daily item usage (1 daily item power per milestone per tier). Essentials introduced item rarity and expected about half of the items a party would receive would be Common, but given that the vast, vast majority of items are Uncommon, I wouldn't stick hard and fast to that particular piece. It's not a bad idea to restrict access to purchases of Uncommons and certainly to do so with Rares, though.

    The original rules also suggested having player provide a wishlist- that's probably a good idea, given that there are many, many items that will be useless to everyone in a party, let alone to an individual character.

    Beyond that, there is definitely an expectation that each character will upgrade their weapon/implement, neck item, and armor every 5 levels. The math really requires that- monsters see their defenses and to-hit ratings increase every level, and the baked in math that lets PCs keep up assumes that they'll be upgrading those items (and maybe others, but definitely those 3).

    2 possible alternatives:

    If you want to make bookkeeping easy, the gold value of the 4 items listed above (level +1, 2, 3, 4) is about that of 5 items of level +1 or +2. So if you don't want to deal with "I gave 4 out of 5 party members an item," then flatten that level curve and give everyone an item.

    There's also an idea that was released in one of the DMGs and then refined in Dark Sun, called Inherent Bonuses. In that case, the assumption is that the party receives 2 items per level, and then everyone's Enhancement Bonus to Hit and to Damage (what you'd usually get by upgrading a weapon) increases at level 2/7/12/17/22/27, along with a +1d6 on a crit for each of those levels, and an increase to all defenses (what you'd get with the armor and neck item) at level 4/9/14/19/24/29. That way everyone gets a couple of items here and there, but you don't have to keep up with the treadmill as much.

    One last thing- it's not a huge deal at level 1, but if you're playing at higher levels, be upfront with your players about how much choice they'll have with items. Many, many builds and guides that you'll see around assume that a player more or less gets to choose their items (which was the case with Living Forgotten Realms, the most common organized play form for 4e). It's ok if they're not getting to pick items, but you should let them know so they won't rely on them.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gear Treadmill?

    Main Weapon/Implement, Armor and Neck are the main slots and a big chunk of the cost.

    The other slots have more leeway, but tend to be "boring but practical" vs. "once a day ____"

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Gear Treadmill?

    In 4e, the price of gear is exponential.

    There are a few things to watch out for.

    First, masterwork armor. It sounds fancy, but it is really a math patch. If you fail to hand out level appropriate masterwork armor, it hits Heary Armor wearers hardest, and you end up with rediculous situations like the Fighter being more fragile than the Rogue.

    Beyond that, 4e item value is exponential. If they have the ability to reforge their gear (ie, have a ritual caster with create magic item, and the time to do it every 2-3 levels) they won't fall significantly behind monsters, and you give them within a factor of 2 the "right" amount of gear.

    The "right" amount of gear for a party of 5 per level is a L+1, +2, +3 and +4 item, plus gold (and an occasional chance to spend it) equal to twice the value of an even-level magic item.

    Every 5 levels a magic item's price goes up by x5. Magic items sell for 5x less than their price (or can be disenchanted into materials worth that much). This means that if the players "liqudiate" the +1,+2,+3,+4 items they get gold enough for a L-4,-3,-2 and -1 item.

    Having gear that are 5 levels under means that your players suffer roughly a -1 penalty to all attacks and damage and a -1 to -2 penalty to defences. This isn't a huge thing: roughly a half-levels worth of character power. That is what happens when your party never gets an item they like, and they have to reforge everything into lower level versions.

    ---

    There are two official item systems in 4e that you can use. The original one has players getting "daily magic item" uses. The later one has magic items being rated as common/uncommon/rare/legendary.

    With the later one (from "Essentials" era), players are only able to buy or enchant common items easily; uncommon/rare/legendary items can only be found, or made with DM's permission. And daily magic item uses on a per-character basis are gone.

    Common items are enough to "keep up with math" and about it. So in the Essentials era, magic items are in the DM's prevue to a significant degree.

    There is also a transfer enchantment ritual that lets a player who uses fullblades find a longsword and move it over to their favorite exact weapon type.

    ---

    In general, I find that you want to be familiar with your player's character sheets and find items that would be great for them.

    "Key" items include armbands of power or archery (Level 6, 16, 26), a weapon or implement (and sometimes 2) of the appropriate kind, armor (and as masterwork as it is permitted for the enchantment level), a neck slot item (within 5 levels), and then stuff for other slots.

    Items that "punch above their weight" include items that add stacking bonuses to charging, items that grant extra attacks (especially on a per-encounter basis) as a non-standard action, non-weapon items that grant bonuses to damage rolls, items that grant non-enchantment bonuses (like Item bonus to AC, or concealment) to AC. Also, items that let you change the damage type of attacks to cold, radiant, psychic, etc (some damage types more than others), because they chain with a bunch of feats and other items.

    ---

    Ways to handle loot:
    1) Ask for wish lists from characters; 5 items over the next 10 levels. Look for holes (did they not ask for armor? A neck slot?) and add 3 more items. Put all items from all characters in one big list; you should have roughly 4 items for each level.

    Each character level has 8-10 encounters. So you'll want to hand out roughly one item every 2 encounters. Pick an item within <= party level+4 from the list, cross it off, and make it part of the treasure.

    2) Look over each character and optimize their character with level appropriate items. Use this as your loot list.

    3) Create a pseudo-random 5 level loot plan. For each character, roll (1d6+1d10)/2 (round down)+Level 4 times for each of (armor) (weapon) (necklace) (other).

    If they wear hide armor, make that armor hide. If they use a greatbow, the weapon is a greatbow.

    Other than that, grab a book and take an item of that level that seems fun.

    Accumulate this loot list. Every 2 encounters hand out an item, roughly 4 times per level, starting with the lowest level item(s). You can also clump them -- have 5 encounters with no loot, and the 6th has 3 items.

    ---

    Or, really, you can simply hand out random crap and watch them disenchant it and make the gear they want.

    For gold, you can just keep track of how much you need to hand out, or you could make a random table based on encounter level.

    A typical level of adventure has a L+0, 2 L+1, 2 L+2, 2 L+3 and a L+4 encounter in it.

    If each encounter generates 1/8th of the same level magic item in gold on average, you'll get the expected amount of gold, roughly.

    So, for a level X encounter, take the value of a level X magic item. Divide by 20. Multiply by 1d4. That is how much gold you should distribute. If you don't think there should be treasure in the encounter, simply add it to the next one.

    If your party is larger/smaller than 5, scale treasure if you feel like it, or use the size-5 party treasure value.

    Concrete example:

    Level 5 encounter. A level 5 magic item is worth 1000 gp. 1000 gp/20 = 50 gp. So treasure in this encounter is 1d4*50 gp (rolled a 2) 100 gp.

    A level 9 encounter. L9 item is 3400 gp. /20 is 170. So treasure is 1d4 (rolled a 3) = 510 gp.

    This should give you a "stateless" way to distribute gold that shouldn't be too far off what the expected WBL will be.

    ---

    All this talk of random might worry you. But the thing is, if you have 2x the treasure of 1/2 the treasure, your character power will be off by a fraction of a level.

    The optimization level of the characters will make a larger difference. You'll have to adapt how hard you push the party more than this anyhow.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Dimers's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gear Treadmill?

    Quote Originally Posted by lord pringle View Post
    Continuing my trend of getting into things years and years too late, I've finally decided to actually try 4e. Everything seems well laid out and easy to learn.
    My one concern is if there is a strict gear progression that must be monitored like WbL in 3.X. If there is, does anyone have any house rules to detach that so I don't have to worry about counting every coin handed out?
    Gear progression is "supposed to be" (I say with a slight sneer of disdain) +1 every five levels for attack and all four defenses, plus a smattering of other stuff. If the PCs get notably more than that, they'll have an easier time in combats ... until you raise the difficulty per combat, whether with tactics or statblocks. If the PCs get less than they're "supposed to", you can lower combat difficulty.

    I won't try to tell you no problem exists, but no problem exists if you're interacting with your players more than a computer game does. Players start to bitch about things being too hard, give 'em better equipment or weaker monsters. They start to treat the game like a cakewalk, hand them foes that are a challenge for their playstyle and abilities, and stop ramping up their toys for a while.

    That said, inherent bonuses are a good idea anyway. They encourage the players to keep the fun, interesting equipment even if it'd normally be weaker.

    Outside combat, equipment isn't likely to play a very large role. I mean, I love 4e, but outside combat NOTHING has a big role in the rules except rituals, and those are borked in their own way.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

    Current games list

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Gear Treadmill?

    Quote Originally Posted by lord pringle View Post
    My one concern is if there is a strict gear progression that must be monitored like WbL in 3.X. If there is, does anyone have any house rules to detach that so I don't have to worry about counting every coin handed out?
    Because the cost of equipment is exponential by level, paragon or epic characters can buy large numbers of heroic-tier items for pocket change, e.g. to use their activated powers. WOTC has said that that's not actually what they intended, and has tried several mechanisms for stopping this. And the only one that really works is inherent bonuses.

    They also have the advantage of speeding up the game, since a fully equipped character has twice as many options to consider every turn than one with inherent bonuses; and I like the idea that the power of a hero comes from his background and training, not from the christmas tree of gear that he happens to be carrying.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: Gear Treadmill?

    I've found that implementing Inherent Bonuses as outlined and then sprinkling in magic items as related to plot and narrative (rather than mechanical milestones) retains the "special" quality of items in accord with myth and literature. Plus, it essentially maintains the mathematics of game balance.

    If your players are really into magic items as rewards (as presented in most editions of the game), you can use IBs and then aggressively adhere to the 2 items + cash / level progression outlined along with the rules for IBs,
    Through a series of unfortunate events, my handle on the WotC boards was darkwarlock.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •