Erfworld 77, page 71

[ShiningTed]

And since then, we don't know what the boop to expect. The dwagons were way the hell off in the middle of nowhere, except that they were evidently between Ansom and Jill. Jill was bound by strong magic to not attack that target, except that she did. And now, Ansom can interrupt an enemy's attack phase from three hexes away? -sigh-

Agreed.

This "oh, wait, here's a mechanic of the game world you didn't know about" thing is getting old.

Agreed.

This was done for dramatic purposes, but it's weird from a gaming perspective.

Agreed.

I think its a case of consistency: when the comic is published this way (1-2 updates a week), we need that consistency to keep us going in the long hours / days between.

That being said, its still a great comic, and just because things don't work out the way I personally like doesn't mean I am going to disparage the comic.

[FlyByNight]

come on! why won't one of them die! The good guys are just so much less interesting than the bad ones.. argh. all those dwagons lost...

I have a hard time imagining that parson couldn't see this happen in advance however..

[teratorn]

Now that you've mentioned it, I think that's exactly what "the flight" entailed.

Not really, they never break the stack with the bats. They just cross the hex sustaining losses all along the way. It's different from this where it seems there was a change in the stack with a fight going on.

Of course this is drama. In game mechanics I would see something like

1) Archons and Jill engage weak stack and win. Their team has now a foot inside the hex and another stack can join.
2) Ansom enters the hex from the other side and merges stack with Jillian (he is higher ranking so it's up to him)
3) Parson merges his stacks and gives orders not noticing Ansom coming from the other side. He only notices something when it's too late.

But I'd rather see Jillian croaked. Parson can still turn this into a winning scenario. He just needs to kill the peeps. Ansom and Vinny don't have the move back into the column. Parson then needs to finish off the flyers from the alliance. If he can not finish siege he can at least remove air cover from the siege. They'll be vulnerable all the way to GK and less effective on the walls.

[Nitan]

I don't know why but this feels like the end of Ansom.

[ag30476]

There's only two warlords dead by my count on Stanley's side... still one uncroaked one if they decided to make a mad run for destroying the rest of the siege weaponry if she lives through the next couple of frames. =)

Even if that one survives it's probly not enough to take out the siege. Anyway, the siege is moot at this point. The game has turned into the hunt. But who's the hunted? It's all about the here and now.

[ag30476]

The A dwagons are croaked - and have been croaked since Jillian stumbled upon them. Thus I don't see a lot of tension here, except for the tension that's existed for a half-dozen strips now.

It's always darkest before the the start of Stanley's turn.

[ag30476]

I don't know why but this feels like the end of Ansom.

Is it because BBEG Stanley foretold Ansom bringing him the pliers? Is it because Vinnie had a bad omen a few panels ago? Is it because this is exactly what Ansom wanted, the dwagons croaked, Jillian as his trusted warlord happy to see him, coming to her rescue, fighting side by side?

[Arkenputtyknife]

I laughed at the last panel. Vinny is a kung-fu master!

Kung fu? Ti kwan leep, methinks.

That's just accidental.

Take three sugar cubes and book a root canal surgery as punishment.

So the Arkenpliers croak undead warlords? Somehow I was hoping for something more spectacular, since they can be croaked with conventional weapons as well.

Well, yes—though I agree, it was a surprise that Manpower wasn't dusted.

Then again, as I've pointed out elsewhere, the dusting happened when an uncroaked was hit with the Arkenpliers, which is a misuse of the tool. Here, Ansom was using them correctly (which is a worrying development in itself). The main purpose of pliers is to grip things (in the case of point-nose pliers like these, things that are too small to hold comfortably in your fingers), so maybe we're seeing one of their primary intended uses: positioning characters in the world—something that might have been tricky for the Titan's enormous fingers.

The croaking only happened when Ansom squeezed hard. But that makes sense; the Arkenpliers wouldn't have been very useful if the character disintegrated every time a Titan tried to pick it up. But now the dusting/sparkly effects makes sense (at least to me): after all, what happens when you hit your precious garage kit with a pair of pliers, or squeeze too hard?

If Phat-Singh is dusted, Parson can't do his hit and run tactics with the dwagons currently out in the field. So Ansom will lose siege, but not all of it.

He still has Ensign Toast and one other, although I don't know where they are. Wouldn't it be funny for the redshirt to be the only one to survive?

[Ensign Toast]'s still but at GK

Where does it say that?

I just though it was a BFS.

I thought it was a +lots Surfboard of Sharpness.

Stanley complaining of loosing 3 dwagons to trap Ansom.

I don't want to be a grammar nazi, but could folks take more care over “loose” vs. “lose”? There's a huge difference between “loosing a dwagon” and “losing a dwagon”; both expressions make perfect sense, but they mean very different things, and discussions can get really confusing when the wrong word is used.

The wussiest dwagons in the universe. They never kill anything. They just get worfed over and over again. Fried, toasted, electrocuted, reduced to atomic bits, kicked in the chops, they're just there to be destroyed in different artistic ways.

And all very badly injured at the start of this skirmish, which wasn't supposed to happen—they were supposed to be resting and healing. The strongest boss monster in the universe is easy to defeat when one HP from death.

You can't make this Boop up!

Er… I think Rob just did.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

it seems like a tactical victory is assured for Ansom, but at the cost of a major strategic setback. Even if they win, they are now stuck away from the column with little hope of getting to safety and likely wounded. Next turn, while unable to hit and run the column, they will be able to use the circle of dwagons to counterattack and wipe out the high leadership. Stanley has sacrificed himself and his position to save Jillian after she professed her love...how sweet...and how foolish.

They will likely take some casualties and some wounds, but they will wipe the wounded dwagons for sure. But next turn, the only thing Parson can do would be to wipe out the leaders and return to base to try and counterattack that way...hopefully the arkenpliers will assist them.

Maybe, Jillian knew that Ansom would come...that is she said what she did (and it might all be true), that he would come to her rescue. But she does 'like it'...maybe she wants it all...maybe she wants Ansom to 'like it' too...perhaps she knew he'd come and they'd win, but then they would be rolled and both (all 3?) taken to GK as prisoners.

The angels are the wild card...they are real mercenaries...if they get orders to do something else, they just might...anyone wanna gamble on the odds that Wanda will pay Charlie for services? If they left, then Jillian and the others would seriously be screwed...

[teratorn]

I don't know why but this feels like the end of Ansom.

It's not over until the phat lady singh...and even then, who knows? The last few strips have been like:
"oh boop, Parson is booped"
to
"oh boop, Ansom is booped"
to
"oh boop, Parson is booped"
to
"oh boop, Jillian is booped"
etc., etc.

Anything can happen, from the Archon's having done enough for what they've been paid for and leaving, a giant lake monster deciding to kill everyone who is bothering its sleep, Ansom and Jillian starting to make out on his carpet and ignoring the war...

Stanley has sacrificed himself and his position to save Jillian after she professed her love...how sweet...and how foolish.

Ansom not His Toolship. And it was not foolish. This fight needed to end with all uncroaked warlords finished off.

[lovelyluthien]

Maybe, Jillian knew that Ansom would come...that is she said what she did (and it might all be true), that he would come to her rescue. But she does 'like it'...maybe she wants it all...maybe she wants Ansom to 'like it' too...perhaps she knew he'd come and they'd win, but then they would be rolled and both (all 3?) taken to GK as prisoners.

*disturbing mental image created*

The angels are the wild card...they are real mercenaries...if they get orders to do something else, they just might...anyone wanna gamble on the odds that Wanda will pay Charlie for services? If they left, then Jillian and the others would seriously be screwed...

Thing is, Wanda probably doesn't have that kind of money... They spent most of the treasury on summoning Parson, didn't they?

[Fuzzy_Juan]

wait a sec...

did someone say the dwagons got 'Worfed'?

ok...who was at the GOTFT part 1...go on...you can admit it...you play white wolf

Spoiler

Show

For those who are very confused, in an online tournament of fictional characters, the winner was decided by the votes of the forumites. People expressed their opinions and then voted. Worf, of Star Trek: The Next Generation/DS9 fame, had the unfortunate luck of getting placed against Master Chief, star of the Halo series. By way of popularity the round drew many more votes than the previous few rounds...and resulted in the most lopsided victory of the first round to date. Not only that, but noone even tried to argue that he would win...few so much as said he would even put up a fight against the mechanized Spartan. The term 'Worfed' was adopted after that to describe similar mismatches where one side was just rolled hard.

[ag30476]

Originally Posted by ag30476
[Ensign Toast]'s still but at GK

Where does it say that?

Nowhere but if I was an Ensign, I wouldn't you leave the ship.

I thought it was a +lots Surfboard of Sharpness.

Hontou? So desk ka. Hai! Korewai Hiraikotsu no ishu des.

I don't want to be a grammar nazi, but could folks take more care over “loose” vs. “lose”? There's a huge difference between “loosing a dwagon” and “losing a dwagon”; both expressions make perfect sense, but they mean very different things, and discussions can get really confusing when the wrong word is used.

You're right but don't lose patience or is that loose patience?

[Girl Wonder]

Wanda defanged and *gasp* a little vulnerable? Maybe if she'd been nicer to the rest of the world they'd be a little more sympathetic when she said 'Please.' I hope she learns from this lesson.

Vinny kicking bottoms?

Parson standing up to Wanda?

Stanley siding with Parson?

Ansom riding to the rescue in the nick of time?

And best of all, the look of pure love Jillian and Ansom give each other when they meet again?

All I can say is...

YAY! :) :) :)

This comic made me SO happy :) I'll have warm and snuggly dreams tonight about this (however fleeting) happy moment for the forces of goodness, cuteness, and plush ;)

[Zelig the Liar]

I've got a really bad feeling about that smile...

You're right but don't lose patience or is that loose patience?

Loose patients. >_>

[ShiningTed]

Is that a symptom of folks in hospital with a semi-colon?

[Etheric]

I don't want to be a grammar nazi, but could folks take more care over “loose” vs. “lose”? There's a huge difference between “loosing a dwagon” and “losing a dwagon”; both expressions make perfect sense, but they mean very different things, and discussions can get really confusing when the wrong word is used.

As you asked nicely sure.

As Parson was looking like losing, he loosed the dwagons. After they were loosed he did not lose a single one (but did lose a lot of battles). The dwagons were winning while losing after being loosed. After the counter attack was loosed, some dwagons were lost. It seems most of the loosed dwagons will be lost.

Hmm maybe I can do a better one :(.

Anyway right now there feels like two ways this could go. Ansom is STILL in a vulnarable position, so there is scope for a counter attack with the B dwagons, any dwagons team stanley has in reserve and all warlords. Stanley wants the arkenpliars above all else, and this happens to be his best chance of getting it, it does depend on the reserve forces.

The other option is that the fat lady has sung (or been turned to dust by the pliars), parson will be sent into combat. With a combination of WTF he has not stats, he gets caputred and after gobwin knob falls becomes a free agent of some sort. The Acheons could be involved in dealing with the spell on him too.

I have too agree with some of the sentiments up there, there is a problem in that Parson is a tactical genuis, but Rob probably isn't, so it gets tricky.

There can be only a few turns left in the battle of gobwin knob I think, either Ansom gets croked/captured and the pliars taken ot stanley or stanley will run away/lose soon.

[Pepz]

yay new comic!!

all I want for christmas is more comics like this one :D

loved vinnie kicking the dwagon in the last panel :)

[CNagy]

No you wouldn't. Generally, once two stacks engage no outside units enter until they're done. Parson merged his stacks and attacked Jillian's stack. The only way for Ansom to pull this thing would have been for him to merge his stack with Jillian's before the engagement.

He could have entered after the Leeroy's stack was wiped out (first engagement over), but Parson would have noticed the merging of stacks in the other side.

This was done for dramatic purposes, but it's weird from a gaming perspective.

For a really old school example of reinforcements mid-turn-based battle, take a look at Stronghold (the old one made by SSI, not the newer games of the same name). It was a turn-based game disguised as a RTS, so when large battles occurred you could pull in reinforcements who would get there as fast as they could move.

And remember, a character inventing new and innovative ways to exploit a system is not Deus Ex Machina

It is if that character bounces a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish.

wait a sec...

did someone say the dwagons got 'Worfed'?

ok...who was at the GOTFT part 1...go on...you can admit it...you play white wolf

Alternatively, they could be referring the Worf Effect. So named because the hostile aliens encountered could and would throw Worf around and into walls, to get some credibility with the audience at home for being a threat (because Worf is the most physically intimidating crew member on the show, and because Data isn't a warrior). In comic books, this can be the Wolverine Effect. And you are the only person who plays White Wolf.

[Ethesis]

No you wouldn't. Generally, once two stacks engage no outside units enter until they're done. Parson merged his stacks and attacked Jillian's stack. The only way for Ansom to pull this thing would have been for him to merge his stack with Jillian's before the engagement.

He could have entered after the Leeroy's stack was wiped out (first engagement over), but Parson would have noticed the merging of stacks in the other side.

This was done for dramatic purposes, but it's weird from a gaming perspective.

No kidding. I read from a gaming perspective, having worked in the area.

[teratorn]

It's nice when someone remembers us that not all the readers are nerds obsessed with game mechanics.

And best of all, the look of pure love Jillian and Ansom give each other when they meet again?All I can say is... YAY! :) :) :)

When I read your comment, I looked back into the strip and had this vision of them singing and dancing while they croak the dwagons. The horror, the horror.

This comic made me SO happy :) I'll have warm and snuggly dreams tonight about this (however fleeting) happy moment for the forces of goodness, cuteness, and plush ;)

Oh well, at least someone is happy (I cursed Rob and Jamie for letting Jillian live).

For a really old school example of reinforcements mid-turn-based battle, take a look at Stronghold (the old one made by SSI, not the newer games of the same name). It was a turn-based game disguised as a RTS, so when large battles occurred you could pull in reinforcements who would get there as fast as they could move.

Yes but from what you tell there was a concept of time in that game ("as fast as they could move"). I guess there were well defined rounds during fights in that game.

I still think Ansom entered and merged with Jillian's stack after she defeated Leeroy. But Parson should have seen the change in stats.

[Ethesis]

The difference is that was clever plan, and as readers we could enjoy the wargaming aspects of exploiting the ruleset to completely pull one over on the opponent. I can follow everything up to Ansom being completely rope-a-doped because he knows that it must be a dumb plan because Stanley devised it.

And since then, we don't know what the boop to expect. The dwagons were way the hell off in the middle of nowhere, except that they were evidently between Ansom and Jill. Jill was bound by strong magic to not attack that target, except that she did. And now, Ansom can interrupt an enemy's attack phase from three hexes away? -sigh-

One of the great strengths of this comic is that I've long wondered what would happen next, because it's kind of cool to watch a wargame unfolding one segment at a time. But I'm not going to do that tonight. I'm sure that, in time, we'll find that these were the rules the entire time, but it's just not so much fun to learn about them in this order.

Nicely said.

I'll keep reading, I've got hope this will pull through. ;)

[teratorn]

Nicely said.

I'll keep reading, I've got hope this will pull through. ;)

Or Parson may object as we do, and someone explains him what happened. The guy knows as much as we do. I'd be frustrated if I were him. Such a good plan and it went so badly.

[Demonix]

Yeah, going to have to weigh in on the meh side as well. I forget who was talking about deus ex writing, but this is it.

Although, and this is probably too much to hope, but:

Maybe Wanda has a kill switch on Jillian she doesn't want to use. Now THAT would be bad ass!

The 17th can't get here fast enough :)

[Karellen]

You know, I just realized why I don't like the current scenario much. I always kind of disliked the notion that Parson was starting an operation using only dragons, because that's emblematic of a variety of unsophisticated brute-force methods and frankly, not that interesting. Also, now it looks like the use he thought for them was near suicidal - basically, he put his only trump card on stake in this fight, in a kind of all or nothing kind of bid.

That's not bad in itself. Only... let's suppose that we don't get a Deus ex Machina and that Parson loses all of the A dragons. Can he still win the campaign? The genre conventions would have us think yes. Only... if he actually can win without his trump card, the trump card so superior that he didn't even bother using anything else on his first operation, then do you know what that means? It means that the strategic situation wasn't anywhere near desperate enough to actually warrant an operation this desperate.

Now consider this: Why did Parson bother with the trap in the first place? It had certain success as a diversion, perhaps, but clearly since breaking out of it was this unproblematic for Ansom, it brought Parson barely any strategic advantage whatsoever. As it stands, he'd probably be better off if he actually had used the B dragons to defend the wounded stacks. It's not that his plans have failed, they've backfired. He's worse off than when he started, in part because he did things that were more clever than actually useful.

If he doesn't lose his dragons, at this stage it pretty much has to happen in a cheesy and lame way. If he loses his dragons and then still goes on to win, I'll be thinking all the time how by any logic it should have been pretty easy if he hadn't screwed up this badly at the beginning. It's going to leave a sour taste to my mouth, one way or another. Pretty much the only way Parson could possibly even the odds at this stage would be to croak Ansom and/or get the Arkenpliers, scoring a Plot Victory, but fact is, no matter how, I'll probably still think that he's a boop-up.

[CNagy]

Yes but from what you tell there was a concept of time in that game ("as fast as they could move"). I guess there were well defined rounds during fights in that game.

A misleading statement on my part, since every unit moved the same speed. I originally phrased it that way because you couldn't actually plot unit movement, you set an attraction on the pyramid and units that weren't home-bound to a certain coordinate would make their own way there, as quickly as they could. Time stopped during battle, except for units attracted to the battle location.

Incidentally, Stronghold also allowed units to engage in combat and withdraw to the opposite side (much like the charging retreat option proposed by Vinnie when they fell into the "trap") if you set the attraction point to that effect.

[Fineous Orlon]

It's not over until the phat lady singh...and even then, who knows? The last few strips have been like:
"oh boop, Parson is booped"
to
"oh boop, Ansom is booped"
to
"oh boop, Parson is booped"
to
"oh boop, Jillian is booped"
etc., etc.

I dunno, I think the last 6 or 7 strips have had the theme of things being really screwed up for Parson, and several of the strips before then, as well. As well, things look really booped, here as Ansom's turn is ending in a flurry of destruction of GK units, GK warlords, and GK tactics.

It doesn't look winnable or even salvageable, and DEM looms....

I really hope not.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I laughed at the last panel. Vinny is a kung-fu master!

Was Wanda pleading? I must have missed something there.

Kung fu master? I saw it as Russian Folk Dance...

Meh... Different cultural references for different people.

I'm right, you're wrong...
You're right, I'm wrong...

Still funny either way.

[Wolf_Shade]

Now you could claim that's why the Archons were so powerful but I feel cheated.

I've felt that way since they started spinning Jillian's alignment like the big wheel on The Price is Right.

Kung fu master? I saw it as Russian Folk Dance...

Curled toe shoes. I'm with you.

And to the person who said Jillian lost her sword, she's holding it panel 7.

[SteveMB]

You know, I just realized why I don't like the current scenario much. I always kind of disliked the notion that Parson was starting an operation using only dragons, because that's emblematic of a variety of unsophisticated brute-force methods and frankly, not that interesting. Also, now it looks like the use he thought for them was near suicidal - basically, he put his only trump card on stake in this fight, in a kind of all or nothing kind of bid.

Both sides have been driven by seeing an opening and concluding that they must grab it without further ado because 1)it's the only chance they have and 2)the window of opportunity is going to close quickly. Parson figured that he had to hit the key targets in Ansom's column before enemy air cover returned (which dictated the use of the dwagons; they're his only flying units and probably his only units of any sort with sufficient move). Once his siege units got chewed up, Ansom figured that he had to take out the wounded dwagons from the raid before they healed and destroyed what was left of his siege train (helpfully, Parson dangled what appeared to be their hiding place just within his reach).

That's not bad in itself. Only... let's suppose that we don't get a Deus ex Machina and that Parson loses all of the A dragons. Can he still win the campaign? The genre conventions would have us think yes. Only... if he actually can win without his trump card, the trump card so superior that he didn't even bother using anything else on his first operation, then do you know what that means? It means that the strategic situation wasn't anywhere near desperate enough to actually warrant an operation this desperate.

Being outnumbered 25:1 is pretty desperate no matter how you slice it. One might argue that Parson booped up by staking too much on the bet that the wounded dwagons would not be attacked (either Ansom wouldn't find them or the spell on Jillian would work as advertised). My read is that he saw the lake, realized that it would put the dwagons out of reach of all but the few air units that could reach the area, and stopped considering the other option (send the wounded dwagons further into the heavy woods, accepting reduced damage to the siege train in exchange for greater safety). That was a mistake that will cost him, but an understandable one -- perhaps he simply underestimated how much damage his raids would do (remember, he came up with the plan before breakfast) and thought he couldn't make that trade-off and still take out Ansom's siege capability before his air cover got back.

Parson isn't a Perfect Warlord, just a pretty good one.

Now consider this: Why did Parson bother with the trap in the first place? It had certain success as a diversion, perhaps, but clearly since breaking out of it was this unproblematic for Ansom, it brought Parson barely any strategic advantage whatsoever.

Ansom didn't have to "break out" of the trap; the wounded dwagons were three hexes away if he came out of the ring the same way he came in, through the now-empty hex. He didn't have the move to return to the column that way, which was the original point of the trap.

If, at the end of the day, the remaining gwiffons and Archons can't carry the three of them back to his forces, he's simply exchanged one trap for another.

Spoiler

Show

What if it turns out that some but not all them could escape? Vinny would volunteer to stay, and Ansom would have none of it. I'm not really expecting this scenario, unless the cliche gets subverted somehow, but it did occur to me as a possibility.

As it stands, he'd probably be better off if he actually had used the B dragons to defend the wounded stacks. It's not that his plans have failed, they've backfired. He's worse off than when he started, in part because he did things that were more clever than actually useful.

That wouldn't have helped all that much if the fort had been in the same location -- fighting through four dwagons (the weakest hex in the original dwagon-ring plan) isn't that much harder than fighting through three of them. However, if he also backed it up a couple hexes (so that fewer forest units could reach), that might have worked.

That said, I think there's some validity to your point that Parson outsmarted himself (see above re using the lake to protect the wounded dwagons).

If he doesn't lose his dragons, at this stage it pretty much has to happen in a cheesy and lame way. If he loses his dragons and then still goes on to win, I'll be thinking all the time how by any logic it should have been pretty easy if he hadn't screwed up this badly at the beginning. It's going to leave a sour taste to my mouth, one way or another. Pretty much the only way Parson could possibly even the odds at this stage would be to croak Ansom and/or get the Arkenpliers, scoring a Plot Victory, but fact is, no matter how, I'll probably still think that he's a boop-up.

OTOH, it would have been cheesy and lame if Parson never screwed up anything (especially given that he's still learning a lot of very basic things about how Erfworld works).