Erfworld 77, page 71

[teratorn]

By the way, do croaked dwagons stay in the air? I like the half-Leeroys hanging to the side.

The only wrinkle here is that it's clear that units in disparate starting hexes (or at least, stacks with leaders) can reinforce each other during combat,

I'm not convinced. I just think Parson was not expecting it and the "blink" it took to happen was not enough for him to make counterplans because he had already acted. I still think Jill and Ansom stacks merged prior to the second combat, and thus it's not really reinforcement.

The thing with your scenario is that then there would be no dwagon problem for Ansom, unless you can only reinforce and not remove units from stack. But that would be weird.

[SteveMB]

Not only that, but Parson isn't getting these rules changes either. Stanley, Wanda, and Sizemore all know, because Parson has told them, that he doesn't know the rules of the game. Apparently, not a single one of them have seen fit to school him in the rules he really needs to know.

Wanda has attempted to do so. She didn't do a very good job of it. Well, duh. How the boop is someone who lives in a world where everybody comes into existence already pre-loaded with skills and knowledge supposed to have a clue about providing a ground-up basic education?

If anything, the deck has been stacked a bit in Parson's favor by having an unusually "geeky" and intellectual native (Sizemore) on the scene. Pity he doesn't know much about the military stuff, but it would be convenient to the point of cheesiness for him to be able to explain both magic and warcraft.

Retask the stack to Ansom. Ansom is clearly more valuable a target than any other unit on the battlefield. He has to enter the stack unjoined to the rest of the units except Vinny.

Er, if he's "unjoined to the rest of the units except Vinny", then he isn't providing a fat leadership bonus to the gwiffons and Archons. Jillian is. That makes her the immediate priority (Parson specifically said that the objective was to remove her leadership bonus.)

[Zeku]

Some posters here aren't liking the comic because it isn't predictable enough, except they're (strangely enough) not calling what they expect to happen predictability. I guess each individual has an idea that their own level of perception and insight is above the baseline, as if the existence of a external baseline would have any significance for the individual.

Things like this always remind me of the familiar map that Bilbo liked to look at, and how very much he hated the adventure that was thrust in his lap.

On page 6, someone mentioned how needlessly complex the quantum trap was for a strategic scenario that either was or wasn't easily winnable. The entire point of the trap was to lure warlords away from the column by convincing them to invest all their move before using bats to scout for the wounded As in a comprehensive fashion. This was accomplished.

Parson left the A dwagons too near, because of misinformation from Wanda, and because he miscalculated the advantage of Ansom's lack of real-time battle data. The original trap is still in effect, all the siege die and/or, major enemy warlords are captured on the next turn.

I hinted at this earlier in the thread, but Parson and Wanda can still be used as warlords, even if all of the uncroaked warlords and A dwagons are destroyed.

[Lefty the Drunken Lush]

I actually have to log on and make my once every two month post to say...

I am rapidly losing interest. Where this once held promise for a quirky and confusing series, it seems to be going downhill fast.

[Vreejack]

I actually have to log on and make my once every two month post to say...

I am rapidly losing interest. Where this once held promise for a quirky and confusing series, it seems to be going downhill fast.

As far as disses go, that was pretty lame. No one wants to hear a boring lamentation of personal ennui. I can watch Lost in Translation for that.

[SteveMB]

I hinted at this earlier in the thread, but Parson and Wanda can still be used as warlords, even if all of the uncroaked warlords and A dwagons are destroyed.

We have no indication that Wanda has a leadership stat. Parson has an impression that she knows more than she lets on about military matters, but there's no mention of trying to get a peek at her through his X-ray specs Stupid Meal goggles to check out her leadership stat (if any).

[teratorn]

there's no mention of trying to get a peek at her through his X-ray specs Stupid Meal goggles to check out her leadership stat (if any).

That sounds naughty.

[Ozar]

As far as disses go, that was pretty lame. No one wants to hear a boring lamentation of personal ennui. I can watch Lost in Translation for that.

Let me attempt to speak for the discontented.

Erfworld is Parson's story.

Parson's story is that of the classic Last Hope for an otherwise doomed nation/side. The draw of his character to the discontented readers (And probably many of the ones that are still enjoying themselves) is the dramatic irony of GK suddenly having a hardcore gamer at the helm. Someone who can turn not only turn the entire tide of the conflict, but also radically alter the balance of power in the setting. Aha! Finally someone to help the losers kick some boop!

Presently, this is not what is occurring.

It's a little too early in the story for the protagonist to be suffering a crippling setback like this. Imagine if the first issue of Batman had gone like this. The reader wouldn't (Typically) enjoy that. Usually a narrative waits a bit before humbling the protagonist so badly. What if Luke Skywalker never made it off Tatooine alive? What if Mario had died in Stage 1-1? That's no fun.

I believe that to those who are losing interest, Erfworld appears to be ending before it ever really got started.

Just my 2¢.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Let me attempt to speak for the discontented.

Erfworld is Parson's story.

Parson's story is that of the classic Last Hope for an otherwise doomed nation/side…

So what you're saying is that you expected a certain stereotype, Erfworld hasn't conformed to that stereotype, and now you're bored because it's something different and original.

Right. Thanks for clearing that up. Now I can go back to ignoring the naysayers with a clear conscience.

[Ozar]

So what you're saying is that you expected a certain stereotype, Erfworld hasn't conformed to that stereotype, and now you're bored because it's something different and original.

Right. Thanks for clearing that up. Now I can go back to ignoring the naysayers with a clear conscience.

I was trying to speak in general of those who are expressing dissatisfaction, not myself. I personally haven't lost interest in Erfworld (Quite the opposite, it's been on my mind more than usual lately.)

Some conventions are frequently found in storytelling for a reason. Ignoring them wouldn't necessarily be original though, nor does following them automatically make them unoriginal.

[Lombard]

So what you're saying is that you expected a certain stereotype, Erfworld hasn't conformed to that stereotype, and now you're bored because it's something different and original.

Right. Thanks for clearing that up. Now I can go back to ignoring the naysayers with a clear conscience.

The handsome prince rescues the princess just in the nick of time. How delightfully original.

[Krellen]

So what you're saying is that you expected a certain stereotype, Erfworld hasn't conformed to that stereotype, and now you're bored because it's something different and original.

So new = good?

Don't be that guy. Seriously. It doesn't end well.

The disappointment comes from the fact that for the bulk of the comic, we've been set up to expect it to follow the story of Stanley and Parson. When you're following the story of a certain group, it's natural to expect not only for the action to centre on that group, but also for that group to experience certain ups and downs - set up specifically so you can follow those ups and downs with them and feel their journey with them.

But thus far Stanley and Parson have had mostly downs, with only one tiny up. And now the story's suddenly switched to make us think we're supposed to be following the story of Ansom and Jillian.

This isn't different and original, it's psychotic.

There is a reason there are certain expectations in stories - it's because the expectations work, and have been proven over millennia to make for engaging, entertaining, and fascinating stories. And when you break from these expectations, you jar the senses of your audience, and will more often than not lose their interest, because you've disconnected yourself from their communal experience. Your story no longer resonates with them, and gets lost in the chaos - and that means the death of your story.

One central theme in virtually every successful story ever told is overcoming adversity. But Ansom has failed to do this, because he's never faced adversity. Even when it seemed he might face adversity - trapped in a forest with a potential traitor as his only hope for escape - instead of overcoming it, we find out there was never adversity at all. The traitor was true, the trap was shattered, and no challenge ever came. We cannot be excited about Ansom's victory because we've been led from the beginning to expect his victory. Does anyone cheer when the 20-point favourite leaps into the lead, or do they cheer when the underdog unexpectedly pulls to the fore?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

[Ozar]

Don't be that guy.*snip*

Well, that put my feeble attempt to utter shame.

[berrew]

I still think Jill and Ansom stacks merged prior to the second combat, and thus it's not really reinforcement.

The thing with your scenario is that then there would be no dwagon problem for Ansom, unless you can only reinforce and not remove units from stack. But that would be weird.

Whether youcall it the second combat ot the 2nd (3rd) combat round is irrelevant, IMO. But I am confused. This is Ansom's turn , and his units have move points and are on the offensive. He can selectively attack and withdraw. Is when Parson moves that things become dicey, eh?

[Girl Wonder]

The handsome prince rescues the princess just in the nick of time. How delightfully original.

I posted something to this point a while ago, but I think it is gone now, but I definitely see ArkenPuttyKnife's point. To be honest, the above, while not original, IS a bit unexpected in these days of postmodern deconstructionism, where we've been conditioned to suspect every prince of secretly being a toad and that it's always some sort of unconventional outsider who saves the day. The popular kids are always snobs and monsters, the rebels are always diamonds in the rough. It's been a trend that arguably began to gain hold in late 19th century popular culture, but didn't really see its flowering until the latter half of the last century. It has, however, become so pervasive that one could make the argument that the 'conventional' is now unconventional, and the 'unexpected' is now expected.

Opinions, of course, shall differ, but I for one see his point.

[teratorn]

I believe that to those who are losing interest, Erfworld appears to be ending before it ever really got started.

Just my 2¢.

I just reread this lake battle, it took me a few minutes. The problem is the time it takes between strips.

It's fun because after the siege thing there were people complaining that the story was nearly over and it had been too easy for Parson. I was already seeing him cutting the column in half with his spidews after the dwagons had finished the heavies.

Even if this thing is only half a victory, Parson knows much more now and he'll exploit something else that won't depend on double-agent Jillian. Of course that means Jillian is not important to the story now. I still hope she'll die, and Vinny also.

[GWvsJohn]

I posted something to this point a while ago, but I think it is gone now, but I definitely see ArkenPuttyKnife's point. To be honest, the above, while not original, IS a bit unexpected in these days of postmodern deconstructionism, where we've been conditioned to suspect every prince of secretly being a toad and that it's always some sort of unconventional outsider who saves the day. The popular kids are always snobs and monsters, the rebels are always diamonds in the rough. It's been a trend that arguably began to gain hold in late 19th century popular culture, but didn't really see its flowering until the latter half of the last century. It has, however, become so pervasive that one could make the argument that the 'conventional' is now unconventional, and the 'unexpected' is now expected.

Opinions, of course, shall differ, but I for one see his point.

How stereotypically Post-Postmodern of you :)

Remember kids, Postmodernism is dead

[teratorn]

Whether youcall it the second combat ot the 2nd (3rd) combat round is irrelevant, IMO. But I am confused. This is Ansom's turn , and his units have move points and are on the offensive. He can selectively attack and withdraw. Is when Parson moves that things become dicey, eh?

I don't see it like that. When a combat action is decided all the stacks not entering the fight have their move frozen, even inside hex move. Jillian (Ansom's turn) could end the fight and disengage only if she left the hex (she's not fighting ground units).

She had to finish Leeroy's stack before next action was decided. She did and all units regain their move. Parson decided for the second fight to join his stacks and Ansom entered and did the same thing. Then battle starts and everything not in those two stacks freezes.

In this scenario there are no reinforcements and no one outside from the hex can enter except between combats.

[CNagy]

Had he known that Ansom could reinforce Jillian that same turn, he would not have given any mind to the odds calculated by his mathmancy thingy. He would have said "as long as they don't reinforce" or "I hope he has no units with enough move to reinforce" or "I hope Jillian has no means to call for help" when quoting the odds.

So yeah, this is one more rule he was not aware of. Again. It gets old.

That rule is insignificant to the fact that Parson has complete knowledge of the battlefield, knows the movement rates of individual units, and still left the injured Dwagons on a hex that both Jillian and Ansom could conceivably reach. He had an awesome game plan that fell to pieces either because he didn't look at all of the numbers/miscalculated, or was too greedy in going after the siege and didn't leave himself enough move to place the A group completely out of retaliation range.

[Arameus]

Alright. So they lose all the dragons. What about all the other dragons? When the turn ends, can't every last dragon swarm the bastards and crush them? No warlord bonuses, but sheer numbers alone would seem to work considering the simple number of dwagons that can get at them. On the other hand, that's at least Ansom, Vinnie, and Slut that would give great leadership bonuses, and the Archons may give bonuses as well in addition to being superpowerful. It'd be a good fight. Ah, to have Parson's Math Glove...

It'll be fun to see some profoundly-negative repercussions for Wanda. Who likes torture now, hah?! The immediate plot could go anywhere from here, but at least I got to see some good action.

And did anyone else see Manpower's sword? Stranger, Stranger, now that's a weapon!

[Nightgaunt]

Some posters here aren't liking the comic because it isn't predictable enough, except they're (strangely enough) not calling what they expect to happen predictability. I guess each individual has an idea that their own level of perception and insight is above the baseline, as if they existence of a external baseline would have any significance for the individual.

While that may be true for some posters here. I think the majority are actually complaining about the way the work is flowing. To use an over simplied example, think about the difference between a twist in "Scooby-Doo" and the "Sixth Sense". The Sixth Sense makes you go, "Damn why didn't I think of that", Scooby-Doo just makes you go "Huh?". I get the impression that many posters here are feeling more of a Scooby-Doo. It's not that the plot fails to meet some pre-conceived notions it's that the plot just does whatever it wants to, without making the characters or story consistent and 'realistic'. I think most people can figure out what I mean by realistic in this sentence. Granted I'm comparing a surprise ending convention with an entire plot, but I'm hoping my analogy sinks in somewhat.

That being said I do not feel that way, I like the story just as it is and the way it's going. But I think saying that most of the people here are just unhappy their preconceived notions didn't come true is a bit harsh. Many posters here actually seem to have a pretty good grasp of what is going on, and some of their points are valid.


That being said, can anyone think of how the mechanics of a RTS/TBS game like this would work. As a retired gamer I can't get the rules of ErfWorld in my head.

-> J Engages Dragons
-> Archons Attack
-> Griffons + J attack
-> Dragons Begin CounterAttack (This is my ?)
-> Vinny + Ansom appear half-way through Counter Attack
-> Vinny + Ansom interrupt dragon turn with own attack.

-> Dragons Attack?

Does this seem correct in terms of Erfworld game-rules combat? Based on what little evidence we have. The fact that Parson even says "Hurry" is itself outside of the standard convention of an RTS. Their is no Hurry in an RTS, so the combat must be some kind of bizzare real time. Which is almost reasonable, accept that during the Pseudo Real Time combat reinforcements from the Turn Based combat can enter, in the middle of the turn. I know analyzing the rules is mostly useless, but I like to think about it anyway.

[GWvsJohn]

Maybe the solution is...

Spoiler

Show

Ansom has some sort of "Knight in Shining Armor" rule that allows stats he directly commands to interrupt combats?

[Eten]

GK is down two warlords. GK is running out of warlords... Parson's moves have been on selective fighting, he naturally favors it due to the tactical implications of fighting 25 against 1. Parson is getting booped at the start if he has his tactical control as Warlord decimated in these warlords.

He really has had the ideal setup. He has a thinkamancer, foolamancer, eyemancer link for real time battle view and info, very strong mobile superior air units, and the warlords to control them with utmost precision(such as withdrawing and assumingly unit targeting in a fight.)

This reminds me of WWII history. At the start, we had many Battleships and only a few Aircraft Carriers. In pearl harbor, we lost many battleships, but got lucky and did not lose any aircraft carriers. Command was forced to make as much use as possible of the aircraft carriers. When they proved to be so extremely effective, Battleships construction was canceled and Aircraft carriers took their place. In fact, Aircraft carriers have dominated naval warfare ever since.

This can be very similar. As Parson finds his current setup booped, it may be for the better in the long run. For example, short on warlords, he acts as a field warlord himself, and unlinks the casters to make use of their other abilities(veiling anyone?).

This story path is further supported by previous events. Parson showed Empathy for the linked casters(he even knows one by name now, Misty). This increases his likely hood to want to break the link. The in-combat impact of Ansom, Jillian, and other Jetstone allied forces warlords- which could be mimicked by Parson and Stanley. Lastly, the surprise introduction of veiling is a forshadowing of its use in the future, and the only known foolamancer is in Stanley's forces.

This War is far from over. There is much more than can happen as the fighting evolves.

[docstrange]

Registered just to post my prediction:

Spoiler

Show

It's not over until... Lady Phat-Singh croaks Ansom. You can't have requited love in Act I of the opera, sorry. Jillian withdraws with the Arkenpliers, at Vinny's insistence, and becomes Chief Warlord for Jetstone. In later strips the Pliers begin to "attune" to her with unknown consequenses. Jillian is torn between her desire to finish the attack on Gobwin Knob for Ansom, her complicated relationship with Wanda, and her mistrust of all things civilized and Jetstonian.

[Arameus]

Let me attempt to speak for the discontented.

Erfworld is Parson's story.

Parson's story is that of the classic Last Hope for an otherwise doomed nation/side. The draw of his character to the discontented readers (And probably many of the ones that are still enjoying themselves) is the dramatic irony of GK suddenly having a hardcore gamer at the helm. Someone who can turn not only turn the entire tide of the conflict, but also radically alter the balance of power in the setting. Aha! Finally someone to help the losers kick some boop!

Presently, this is not what is occurring.

It's a little too early in the story for the protagonist to be suffering a crippling setback like this. Imagine if the first issue of Batman had gone like this. The reader wouldn't (Typically) enjoy that. Usually a narrative waits a bit before humbling the protagonist so badly. What if Luke Skywalker never made it off Tatooine alive? What if Mario had died in Stage 1-1? That's no fun.

I believe that to those who are losing interest, Erfworld appears to be ending before it ever really got started.

Just my 2¢.

Maybe it 'appears' that way to you, but maybe it looks that way because you take crazy pills. Have you considered the possibility that maybe they're not dead in the water?

The way Ansom described it, the siege of Gobwin Knob was going to be an epic challenge, even without the unforeseen loss of 40% of his siege units, which isn't, as some person described it, 'one tiny up.' Worse comes to worst, Parson loses the 'A' stack and maybe a few more of the dwagons as they flee back to GK. This doesn't seem too catastrophic; it's a heavy blow, to be sure, but he still has a good leadership corps left and the great majority of the dwagons. That doesn't sound like 'over before it started' to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's Ansom's turn to get pounded next.

This is not going to be the end; it's chapter one, and it's not even near the end of the chapter yet. So don't get too worked up overy a faulty conception, because that's your problem, not Erfworld's.

[R.I.P. Manpower]

Did anyone else notice the strange looking pieces either side of the red dwagon in the middle of panel 1...if I'm not very much mistaken, it's the two halves of Leeroy falling back to Erf!

Poor manpower ...well at least it's not over until Lady Phat-singh (s)

personally I'm of the opinion of just enjoying the ride and seeing where we end up...though I think I hold more affinity to the classically evil side; Parson et al.

...and don't forget that the tool is on a Divine mission from the Titans, he may be considered classically evil but a Divine mission has got to count for something...I mean, the titans wouldn't just give him the powers of the Arkenhammer for nothing...would they?

[Krellen]

Maybe it 'appears' that way to you, but maybe it looks that way because you take crazy pills. Have you considered the possibility that maybe they're not dead in the water?

Briefly. Then I realised people that think otherwise are expecting a Deus Ex Machina that ignores previously established setting facts. Despite Ansom's claim that he has four times the forces required to take Gobwin Knob, despite Wanda's assessment that they are outnumbered twenty-five to one, despite the statement that Stanley has not won a single battle since starting his quest for the Arkentools, they were expecting Parson to win. Therefore, they are "pleasantly" surprised by reversals of fortune that make it seem less likely he will.

Destroying 40% of Ansom's siege is "one tiny up". Even at 60% strength, Ansom has over twice the siege he'd need to take Gobwin Knob. He could lose another 35% of the total and still have sufficient siege to win; and even if it drops beneath that threshold, the overwhelming force in the rest of the ranks makes up for a lot of it, making Gobwin Knob still doomed.

Too many people that see the "bright side" seem to have simply dismissed the background setting we've been given as pure meaningless fluff. I did not, and am disappointed to see nothing change in regard of it.

Losing the dwagons is not a minor setback. It's been established that the dwagons are Stanley's only real asset (the dwagons were the only things that worried Ansom when he was relaying his battle plans), and between the stack Ansom eliminated and the wounded dwagons over the lake, Stanley will lose approximately half his dwagons (22 of 46). He's certainly not left with a "great majority" of them.

So what we're faced with here is Ansom losing an insignificant portion of his siege force, while Stanley loses a near-crippling portion of his dwagon corps. So how are we supposed to believe there's hope for Stanley? Heck, all this fighting in the open is exactly what Ansom wanted.

[SteveMB]

The way Ansom described it, the siege of Gobwin Knob was going to be an epic challenge

Huh? Ansom was expecting a straightforward march to victory ("We have four times the forces we need to take that city..."). That's part of the reason he walked into the trap -- fighting against the hapless Stanley has made him overconfident.

I can see why people looking for an interesting fight are annoyed that Ansom has caught some breaks (like he needs them). OTOH, in the long run, it would be unsatisfying if everything Parson did worked out OK (despite his ignorance of the basics of Erfworld); it would seem too much like winning through the power of PLOT.

[GWvsJohn]

Registered just to post my prediction:

Spoiler

Show

It's not over until... Lady Phat-Singh croaks Ansom. You can't have requited love in Act I of the opera, sorry. Jillian withdraws with the Arkenpliers, at Vinny's insistence, and becomes Chief Warlord for Jetstone. In later strips the Pliers begin to "attune" to her with unknown consequenses. Jillian is torn between her desire to finish the attack on Gobwin Knob for Ansom, her complicated relationship with Wanda, and her mistrust of all things civilized and Jetstonian.

Oh my, I like that idea :)

[Bongos]

Do we know for certain that the dwagons Parson used in this battle are ALL the dwagons GK has?

Or maybe these are just the ones he used? The ones with enough move for this battle?

Seems like the gwiffons have a wide range in moves, maybe the dwagons do too?