Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

[Aquillion]

Honestly, I don't think it's anything as complex as that. Here's the issue:

Units don't cost money to make. That has massive implications in a strategy game, because it means that even a very poor side can build up its treasury for a bit, then choose to overextend itself and pop units that cost more than they can maintain upkeep for. Since units don't cost money, you just need to be able to bear that overwhelming upkeep long enough to seize a few cities with your newly-massive army.

This means that you stick to just an army you can afford, and don't build any more units than that, you're going to get crushed by a neighbor who chooses to overextend themselves like that. And the fact that cities and other forms of income yield diminishing returns means you're never "safe" - even a large, strong side is always vulnerable to that sort of overextended rush from smaller neighbors.

[tomaO2]

You can pop 8 pikers a turn per city, that is as fast as it gets. A small side is looking at having 2-4 cities, so that's 32 pikers, at best, and the cities are not close to each other. On top of that, how many turns do you think you can just wait around not even making new units?

I think you are vastly overestimating how much money you can gain, how fast you can create the army, how fast you can MOVE the army to attack an enemy city, and underestimating how strong cities can be. Even 100 troops can defend against a much larger opponent, as long as they can't just fly in.

My system, which is not even remotely complicated, does exactly what you propose, only more efficiently, because you are simultaneously making extra money, and popping excess units. Rather than doing one or the other.

[Douglas]

Yeah, units may not cost money to make, but they do cost time. The really big game-changing ones cost a lot of time, such as a Royal Heir, though that one's more of a game-changer in the strategic sense of making it possible for the side to survive the Ruler's death than in any direct military power advantage. There's a possible exception if you get lucky when popping a warlord and get a caster instead, but that's not something you can reliably plan for.

[deuterio12]

You can pop 8 pikers a turn per city, that is as fast as it gets. A small side is looking at having 2-4 cities, so that's 32 pikers, at best, and the cities are not close to each other. On top of that, how many turns do you think you can just wait around not even making new units?

I think you are vastly overestimating how much money you can gain, how fast you can create the army, how fast you can MOVE the army to attack an enemy city, and underestimating how strong cities can be. Even 100 troops can defend against a much larger opponent, as long as they can't just fly in.

My system, which is not even remotely complicated, does exactly what you propose, only more efficiently, because you are simultaneously making extra money, and popping excess units. Rather than doing one or the other.

Except we had Olive Branche's side not bothering to build any new units anymore because they couldn't afford it.

Then there's natural allies screwing the math up because you can just throw money at those to bypass city production limitations.

And yes high-move fliers do exist in Erfworld, dragons and gwiffons to name a few, TV can just mass produce flying warlords backed up by bat hordes and we've seen just how they're all pretty effective at raiding cities out of nowhere and if you have a cunning chief warlord you can also tear down any slow infantry forces trying to march on your stuff.

Like, the RCC had overwhelming numerical superiority and still needed Jillian and TV and Charlescom air coverage to prevent themselves from just being destroyed by dwagon hit-and-runs.

[tomaO2]

Except we had Olive Branche's side not bothering to build any new units anymore because they couldn't afford it.

There are two main methods of smucker reduction.

1. Every new city level you get makes slightly less money than the previous one. Eventually, this number goes to 0$ per city added. (largely canon)
2. When a city stops popping units, it immediately drops down to 50% of its previous smucker production. (speculation)

If you have 20 city levels, the first one might produce 2000$ smuckers when popping troops but only 1000$ when unit creation ceases. The twentieth level, on the other hand, might only produce 1000$ smuckers when popping units but only 500$ when not.

Haffington had simply gotten so big that new cities no longer added additional smuckers, regardless of whether or not they were popping new units. After that happened, it becomes exceedingly difficult to add more troops and expand borders, which is why decrypted soldiers became so important, because they have exceptionally low upkeep.

The fact that Haffington kept up its conquering ways anyway, such as attacking Faq the moment it was discovered, shows how exceedingly expansionist the nation is. Any sane country would be setting up a tribute system from some piddly 3 city Side to help fund their upkeep, not wiping it out and conquering it, which just adds more strain on their system.

Obviously, the concept of the Transilvito model, that is based around extortion, was rejected by them. They just kept taking their limited pool of soldiers, and massed it at whatever target was convenient to them. Meanwhile, the actual cities had next to no soldiers, because they just could not afford it.

Then there's natural allies screwing the math up because you can just throw money at those to bypass city production limitations.

Yes, it's a quick way to increase your army size, although there is a hard, if unknown, limit on the max number of units that a tribe can make in this fashion, and it costs money, which many sides don't have a lot of.

It was extremely useful for Haffington to have a tribe of elves so that she could immediately create a small reserve of troops if a hot spot developed. On the other hand, that same tribe got bought off by Charlie in the end, and ended up betraying Olive. That would not have been possible if those were her troops instead. Always keep in mind that a tribe is other, not yours, and money spent on a tribe is money growing something that might eventually attack you, if the right deal comes along. So there are certainly reasons to not let a tribe get too big.

And yes high-move fliers do exist in Erfworld, dragons and gwiffons to name a few, TV can just mass produce flying warlords backed up by bat hordes and we've seen just how they're all pretty effective at raiding cities out of nowhere and if you have a cunning chief warlord you can also tear down any slow infantry forces trying to march on your stuff.

I never said they didn't exist, but they can't exactly be relied on for every side, now can they? And even the sides that have them still take awhile to move around. The crown coalition had very few fliers that made up its army, and cities have a specific defense that ONLY targets fliers. Flier move can vary by a lot as well.

Also, we don't know what sort of disadvantages an exclusively flier army has. It's worthwhile to note that TV warlords have a magic coat to hold their bats, maybe a bat army is harder to move around without it? TV is also the only side with a significant number of flying warlords. This strategy would have been useless otherwise, because even if the bats could move around fast, land based warlords can't without a mount, and TV doesn't have mounts. Stanley could cheat because he can go around and tame new dwagons to bulk up his fliers, and Jillian was getting all sorts of funding from TWO sides in order to boost her amy up to an extent that would not normally be possible.

Like, the RCC had overwhelming numerical superiority and still needed Jillian and TV and Charlescom air coverage to prevent themselves from just being destroyed by dwagon hit-and-runs.

I think the books have done a great disservice by making the fliers seem to be the uber units of Erfworld, and not really giving any good counters for them. I mean, there are archer units but they come across as a soft counter instead, and cities need to be powered up by an actual caster, who will waste a TON of juice doing so (unless caster is a shockomancer) to take down fliers.

Again though, not all sides have ready access to fliers, and sides don't get to choose what units they make. We also don't know what sort of disadvantages an exclusively flier side has.

[halfeye]

Haffington

Haffaton. There was a band I once heard of called "Half a ton and a feather", I don't remember ever hearing their music (I think maybe they were a soul band?), but the name stuck with me, and I'm pretty sure that's where the name of this side came from.

[Aquillion]

There are two main methods of smucker reduction.

1. Every new city level you get makes slightly less money than the previous one. Eventually, this number goes to 0$ per city added. (largely canon)
2. When a city stops popping units, it immediately drops down to 50% of its previous smucker production. (speculation)

The point is, your speculation in the second point doesn't make any sense. If it worked that way, Haffaton would want to keep producing units no matter what (and would just kill them as soon as they popped), because stopping popping would mysteriously halve your production. In fact, it would never make sense for a city to do otherwise.

I'm just... not seeing any reason at all why it would work that way. It introduces lots of weird setting problems and doesn't really solve anything that couldn't much more reasonably be solved by a more straightforward and far more thematically-meaningful "if you don't maintain a large army, your neighbors invade and conquer you."

[tomaO2]

The point is, your speculation in the second point doesn't make any sense. If it worked that way, Haffaton would want to keep producing units no matter what (and would just kill them as soon as they popped), because stopping popping would mysteriously halve your production.

1. Haffaton is lead by a hippymancer. I'd imagine she would dislike killing her own troops.
2. It's been stated that sides do not disband their troops, because it causes moral issues. It's an unexplained mechanic that tells us that, no, this doesn't happen. Sorry man, canon says that rulers don't go around killing their troops, regardless of the economic sense of doing so. Hell, even Queen Bea didn't disband her army, she sent them outside of the city so they would auto disband after she croaked. Why did she do it like that? There is a clear issue against this act.
3. On the other hand, who says they don't pop troops and then kill them? That would be an excellent way to use a croakamancer. However, a croakamancer can only be in so many places at once, so unit popping could be focused around a certain group of cities, while far off ones would not produce anything.

In the end, it doesn't really matter either way for Haffaton, because it is the biggest side that has ever been shown. Even with every trick in the book, it would still be chronically short on troops. This particular nation is just no good to use as an example to argue either way.

In fact, it would never make sense for a city to do otherwise.

Yes, it doesn't make sense to stop popping more troops, that's the point. You have a financial incentive to constantly pop more, because popping troops doesn't cost you money, it MAKES you money. Unfortunately, the upkeep from all the troops causes you to eventually start losing money anyway. However, if you stop making troops at this point, you go into deficit, so you can't stop at this point, which leads to the only alternative, kill off your army units. Since disbanding troops causes undefined problems, the best alternative is to have someone else kill them off for you, so you go to war.

It's why they constantly fight each other instead, because that is the ideal way to bleed off excess troops. It makes the most sense to constantly pop armies, and then have them fight when you get close to the smucker cap, so then you have room to keep popping more troops, and get the added smucker bonus for doing so. It ENCOURAGES you to fight.

Without this, then there is no real reason to keep attacking after you hit a certain size. Growing further doesn't get you enough gain in smuckers to offset the problems with protecting your newly enlarged kingdom, but if you are constantly popping excess troops, then you will be encouraged to keep attacking, and not even care if you win or lose, because this is the most efficient way to make money.

I'm just... not seeing any reason at all why it would work that way.

I told you why. It encourages you to pop an army that is far larger than what you can afford, and then go to war to keep upkeep under your smucker cap.

It introduces lots of weird setting problems

Like what?

and doesn't really solve anything that couldn't much more reasonably be solved by a more straightforward and far more thematically-meaningful "if you don't maintain a large army, your neighbors invade and conquer you."

Except the fact that every side is considered to be unsustainable. You must have forgotten that bit. It's not just a large army they maintain, every side has an army so large that they can't actually afford it, and sides that avoid this sustainability problem are called "bubble kingdoms", which is such a rare phenomenon that they are said to not exist.

This is the core problem, and it goes way beyond needing a big army to prevent attacks, because EVERY side has this issue.

When we hear this, readers ask why do sides keep popping armies that they can't afford? Why is Parson so dumb that he can't understand that if you don't want a side to be unsustainable, you just pop what you can afford upkeep for? When I play wargames, I don't create armies that cause me to go into deficit every turn. I make what I can afford and do what I can with that. If I need a push for a specific military objective, sure, I might temporarily increase the numbers but I would not remain in perpetual debt forever after I did so. That doesn't make any economic sense at all.

My solution makes it economically viable to pop more troops then you could afford if you didn't pop them.

[Anteros]

Honestly, I don't think it's anything as complex as that. Here's the issue:

Units don't cost money to make. That has massive implications in a strategy game, because it means that even a very poor side can build up its treasury for a bit, then choose to overextend itself and pop units that cost more than they can maintain upkeep for. Since units don't cost money, you just need to be able to bear that overwhelming upkeep long enough to seize a few cities with your newly-massive army.

This means that you stick to just an army you can afford, and don't build any more units than that, you're going to get crushed by a neighbor who chooses to overextend themselves like that. And the fact that cities and other forms of income yield diminishing returns means you're never "safe" - even a large, strong side is always vulnerable to that sort of overextended rush from smaller neighbors.

For what it's worth, I pretty much agree with 100% of your assessment on this despite other people shooting it down. This is exactly what would happen, and it's exactly how you should play the game if this mechanic is in place. The time to pop units would have to be truly significant in order to counter the advantage you'd get from doing this.

Hoard money. Pop an unsustainable number of flyers. Capture enemy city. Raze it if keeping it is unsustainable. This is exactly how this mechanic would play out in any strategy game ever, and anyone not abusing it would get annihilated almost immediately. This isn't even revolutionary. It's already completely standard in any type of game that allows it. Heck, it happens in real life. History is littered with examples of leaders raising unsustainable armies for a short term advantage, banking on either victory flooding their coffers, or defeat shrinking their army to a sustainable size. Making unit production free just makes this strategy even more necessary.

Regardless, I seem to remember that there was a mention at some point that cities can pop random units and it's up to the ruler if he wants to pay the cost to pop them or disband them, so it seems obvious to me that unit production has a cost anyway.

[DataNinja]

Except the fact that every side is considered to be unsustainable. You must have forgotten that bit. It's not just a large army they maintain, every side has an army so large that they can't actually afford it, and sides that avoid this sustainability problem are called "bubble kingdoms", which is such a rare phenomenon that they are said to not exist.

This is the core problem, and it goes way beyond needing a big army to prevent attacks, because EVERY side has this issue.

Every side has this issue because, as mentioned, if one side breaks it, they'll be able to sustain themselves at the expense of all others. So, in an ideal world, everyone as a bubble kingdom would work. But, some rulers wouldn't take that option even if it was presented to them, I'm sure. They'd want more.

So, in theory, everyone being a bubble kingdom could work. But it relies on everyone else agreeing to doing the same. And because of the mentality of Erf, the likelihood of that happening is very, very low. And as soon as one side stops following it... all the rest need to do the same, or else perish.

[Douglas]

New update.

Spoiler

Show

Charlie would have such a fit over how incredibly vague this contract is if he saw it.

[NEO|Phyte]

New update.

Spoiler

Show

Charlie would have such a fit over how incredibly vague this contract is if he saw it.

Spoiler

Show

Decent fellows don't go trying to loophole contracts.

[HandofShadows]

New update.

Spoiler

Show

Charlie would have such a fit over how incredibly vague this contract is if he saw it.

I think that might be part of the point with this.

[Aquillion]

Keep in mind that this contract's author is a master signamancer. Partially it might be his decency and willingness to trust the other party, yes, but partially it might be that a master signamancer doesn't need to do rules-lawyer stuff because he's good enough to put the full meaning and intentions of the contract into plain language.

(Also remember that Charlie's contracts are convoluted, in part, because he likes to cheat them. This contract may actually be more solid than his - "a decent fellow" may be vague, say, but it's also pretty hard to cheat around.)

The only part that seems odd to me is the "everyone feels comfortable doing something else" language, which, to me, implies that all parties must agree before they can stop paying Fumo's upkeep. Then again, they can just declare Fumo's actions "non-decent" if they want to stop.

[Kornaki]

No, if the point of the plain language is that as a master signamancer the full intent of the agreement is baked into it, then they can't just randomly declare him not to be decent if he is being decent.

Besides which, I think the point is they have promised to pay his upkeep indefinitely until he has found something better to do, even if he doesn't realize that. Remember Noah's wife wanted to know his full story, I doubt she intends for it to end with "and then four turns after the agreement Fumo disbanded because he was stuck in the ocean and we stopped supporting him"

[JavaScribe]

The latest.

And it finally intersects the main plot I guess.

[smuchmuch]

I have honneslty no idea of whta is happening anymore. As much as I actualy liked the text updates and side storry for a while, this part compellty threaw me off. I can't get invested in it or the new characters. Could someone tell me what these last 15 page or so were about please ? Because I can't make head or tails of them or how they are supposed to be connected to ...w ell anything else that happened before

[slayerx]

I have honneslty no idea of whta is happening anymore. As much as I actualy liked the text updates and side storry for a while, this part compellty threaw me off. I can't get invested in it or the new characters. Could someone tell me what these last 15 page or so were about please ? Because I can't make head or tails of them or how they are supposed to be connected to ...w ell anything else that happened before

You're not as confused as you think you are. We don't know how this whole plot line is supposed to connect to the main story; so far the only thing we know is that its happening at around the same time. Its actually one of the things that has annoyed me about this whole plot line being considered "prologue" since it seems to have almost nothing to do with the main plot.

To summarize... Nestly is a small side lead by Paige Turner a feral warlord turned ruler who likes to write stories about other feral warlords. Noah her husband/chief caster discovers these feral warlords while sending out scouts, the most recent of which is Fumo. Fumo popped as a feral warlord and managed to survive long enough to get caught by tidepool, which is part of carpool who is one of Transylvito's enemies. Tidepool captured Fumo to take him to fight against TV, but their mathamancer for some reason thinks he might be connected to some long lost side called Atlanta which he is obsessed with for unknown reasons. The ships they were riding came too close to Nestly and were sunk by gun whales who Noah had befriended to act as nestly's defenders. The Gun whales, via natural date-a-mancy, were able to sense that Fumo might be friends with Noah (because Noah had been tracking his story), so they spared his life and told Noah. Noah came out to meet them, contracted Fumo as a Merc, had Fumo capture the surviving tidepool units, and now he's going back to Nestly to consult Paige Turner about it... oh and it turns out that this is all happening at the same time the towers are awakening and Wanda was captured and was going to be executed.

What does ANY of this have to do with the main plot and why is this story considered a prologue for the next book? We have no idea.

[Zalabim]

Many people guessed it already, but Nestly is the side where, I'll let the update speak for itself on this one, "If there is a Happening and it's a serious bummer, and the Magic Kingdom isn't a safe space for Free Hippiemancers to live, then they can come crash at Noah's pad, and stay there as long as it takes to get back on their feet."

But I'm sure confused as to what this might have to do with the main plot, yessiree.

[lord_khaine]

Did we have it confirmed Page Turned were a feral warlord?
It seemed like Atlanta were important somehow, because it was one of the original 99 sides.

[NEO|Phyte]

Did we have it confirmed Page Turned were a feral warlord?
It seemed like Atlanta were important somehow, because it was one of the original 99 sides.

It's said somewhere in the updates, it's part of why she wants to know about other ferals.

[Mando Knight]

Many people guessed it already, but Nestly is the side where, I'll let the update speak for itself on this one, "If there is a Happening and it's a serious bummer, and the Magic Kingdom isn't a safe space for Free Hippiemancers to live, then they can come crash at Noah's pad, and stay there as long as it takes to get back on their feet."

But I'm sure confused as to what this might have to do with the main plot, yessiree.

We might not get back around to it until next decade, but Parson counts as a Hippiemancer, at least according to Janis.

Other than that, this was a long tale about how a lost-island side got its Temple/Tower.

Did we have it confirmed Page Turned were a feral warlord?
It seemed like Atlanta were important somehow, because it was one of the original 99 sides.

It's said somewhere in the updates, it's part of why she wants to know about other ferals.

It's in Prologue 6: "He would point out that these stories about ferals did not need to end. Hers hadn't (luckily for him)."

[The Glyphstone]

Seem more like a shaggy dogErf story right now.

[halfeye]

We might not get back around to it until next decade, but Parson counts as a Hippiemancer, at least according to Janis.

Other than that, this was a long tale about how a lost-island side got its Temple/Tower.

Which implies that every city got one. Which was probably already implied, but not quite so strongly. I wonder whether this one speaks gibberish too?

Seem more like a shaggy dogErf story right now.

It might all connect up. I mean, that's presumably the aim, in a way, though it seems that the goal is to spin it out as long as possible, so maybe not? If the intention is never to end, there ought to be sub-climaxes before the end, otherwise nobody is going to hang around.

[Welf]

Which implies that every city got one. Which was probably already implied, but not quite so strongly. I wonder whether this one speaks gibberish too?

That was already established firmly. The first two pages of the prologue were about some guy visiting some other guys in some place and then he said stuff and then there was suddenly temple.

[lord_khaine]

It's in Prologue 6: "He would point out that these stories about ferals did not need to end. Hers hadn't (luckily for him)."

Ahh thank you.
And now i also see where the actual importance comes from.
Its because their Library holds the journal of one of the original 99 kings and queens.
Suposedly that holds some sort of big secret about the world.

[RowenMorland]

Ahh thank you.
And now i also see where the actual importance comes from.
Its because their Library holds the journal of one of the original 99 kings and queens.
Suposedly that holds some sort of big secret about the world.

I thought journal was that that side popped on a little island where the king couldn't get the resources to expand off of said island, that all his units died from lack of upkeep and that he became mad from being imprisoned on a minimum hex island for however many turns and destroyed himself.

And that the secret was the location of Nestly which is a big secret because of how well it being hidden works for the Hippiemancer bail out plan.

As for a temple for every city/capital could it be that there will only be one for each of the original side capitals?

[sherlock]

You're not as confused as you think you are. We don't know how this whole plot line is supposed to connect to the main story; so far the only thing we know is that its happening at around the same time. Its actually one of the things that has annoyed me about this whole plot line being considered "prologue" since it seems to have almost nothing to do with the main plot.

To summarize... Nestly is a small side lead by Paige Turner a feral warlord turned ruler who likes to write stories about other feral warlords. Noah her husband/chief caster discovers these feral warlords while sending out scouts, the most recent of which is Fumo. Fumo popped as a feral warlord and managed to survive long enough to get caught by tidepool, which is part of carpool who is one of Transylvito's enemies. Tidepool captured Fumo to take him to fight against TV, but their mathamancer for some reason thinks he might be connected to some long lost side called Atlanta which he is obsessed with for unknown reasons. The ships they were riding came too close to Nestly and were sunk by gun whales who Noah had befriended to act as nestly's defenders. The Gun whales, via natural date-a-mancy, were able to sense that Fumo might be friends with Noah (because Noah had been tracking his story), so they spared his life and told Noah. Noah came out to meet them, contracted Fumo as a Merc, had Fumo capture the surviving tidepool units, and now he's going back to Nestly to consult Paige Turner about it... oh and it turns out that this is all happening at the same time the towers are awakening and Wanda was captured and was going to be executed.

What does ANY of this have to do with the main plot and why is this story considered a prologue for the next book? We have no idea.

About six months and 20-25 updates for this?
Imagine Peter Jackson putting one hour of tales from the Silmarillion at the beginning of "The return of the King" movie, before letting the audience finally know how the main story goes on?

Anyway, thank you for the synopsis. Now I'm confirmed in the choice I made to NOT read this prologue and wait for the main story to resume, because I began reading the story of Parson Gotti and a few other characters a lot of time ago and I'd like to know how it ends (if ever it will), with little interest in this more and more complex world-building around with thousands of more characters.

[-D-]

What does ANY of this have to do with the main plot and why is this story considered a prologue for the next book? We have no idea.

Of course we do. We need MOAR characters. Characters up the wazoo. Basically, Rob decided to go full Tito Kube. When you are low on inspiration, just add moar fuki*** characters. It's the universal solution to all plot problems.

[Anteros]

Of course we do. We need MOAR characters. Characters up the wazoo. Basically, Rob decided to go full Tito Kube. When you are low on inspiration, just add moar fuki*** characters. It's the universal solution to all plot problems.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but you're really selling Tite Kubo short here. His characters actually have somewhat unique personalities and are visually interesting instead of cheap canned references. Most of the "things" we get from Erfworld barely qualify as characters at all.