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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    OMG plot actually advancing two comics in a row???
    To end the book, no less....

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    You cannot hate a character without an emotional investment in them.

    So ... author attempting to get readers emotionally attached to characters: success?
    So you'll insert the horse into the Large Hadron Collider next?
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Gotta love the "We're starting the new book but will only figure out the name later". In particular since they only came out with the name for book 4 literally after ending. So just more confirmation they've simply been improvising at the last minute for the last years.

    Also they've got some real courage to claim they're not making cliffhangers considering all the months we were stuck waiting what had happened to Wanda after rocks fell on her.

    And "no major breaks in the schedule". Meaning expect lots of "minor" breaks in the schedule.

    Quote Originally Posted by keybounce View Post
    You cannot hate a character without an emotional investment in them.

    So ... author attempting to get readers emotionally attached to characters: success?
    I'll give that much to Rob, he can really make us care about the characters, for better and worst.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Also they've got some real courage to claim they're not making cliffhangers considering all the months we were stuck waiting what had happened to Wanda after rocks fell on her.
    No, the specific thing here is that Rob doesn't want a hiatus cliffhanger where nothing gets shown. While it was a long period of time where we didn't know what happened to Wanda, there were still other updates (which, yes, caused information to be much more dispersed due to the smaller update sizes).

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    I think killing Wanda is just plain annoying. She has survived so many things over the course of the story, but dies to rocks falling? That is about the easiest thing for Fate to stop from happening that is possible. Which can only mean, in my mind, that Fate wanted her to die.

    If Wanda was going to die, I would like there to be this epic push and pull of fate trying to rescue Wanda from constant attempts of killing, maybe some multiple prophecies that duel with each other, or possibly Wanda ignoring clear signs that she needs to do X thing and Fate just finally shrugging its shoulders and giving up. At least the dynamic of Charlie vs. Fate has some interesting byplay when we see just how absurd things have to get in order to keep Parson around.

    Now that the moment has finally arrived with a character that is Fated to keep living getting killed off, I want to see what is this "worse" thing that supposedly happens when fate is thwarted. I want reality to twist, for maybe some sort of natural reconjumancy to happen and things reset to the day before, but someone is now tasked to putting things back to right.

    There are so many interesting directions things can go, but we already know how this is going down, right?

    Awakened arkenepliers, as soon as this happens Fate goes, "guess we can kill wanda off in a meaningless manner and put her under the thumb of the pliers." Pliers then decrypt her. Instead of interesting mechanics, we just get a another bullcrap boop-pull to bring things back to normal.

    Boring. In the end, Fate always wins, and the rules will break in absurd ways to keep the status quo. It didn't need to go this way, and I don't know why Rob felt so strongly that we MUST have sentient Pliers to continue the story. One thing I really like about OOTS is that there are absolute limits on what you can do, and Rich also discourages the stuff that can quickly solve problems, like how long the resurrection of Roy took, or making sure V can't use teleport. One would think that a wargame/rpg would also have hard rules, but that just never seems to be the case. Rob just refuses to write higher stakes without pulling out bull**** for the protagonists to win.

    Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if Rob regrets making Parson the protagonist in the first place, a protagonist that uses his head to win wars has no place in a story like this, which we can clearly see by the fact of Parson being sidelined for such a long time, Rob had some good ideas during the first two books, but that well seems to have run dry.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by DataNinja View Post
    No, the specific thing here is that Rob doesn't want a hiatus cliffhanger where nothing gets shown. While it was a long period of time where we didn't know what happened to Wanda, there were still other updates (which, yes, caused information to be much more dispersed due to the smaller update sizes).
    Interrumpting the Wanda battle with countless pages of tower legalese in a completely parallel conflict in another dimension that had zero interactions to what was happening with Wanda may as well count as a cliffhanger for all pratical purposes.

    Meanwhile we also got the "not"-cliffhanger of what exactly happened to Caesar. Stop switching scenes when a character is about to croak damnit!

    Quote Originally Posted by tomaO2 View Post

    If Wanda was going to die, I would like there to be this epic push and pull of fate trying to rescue Wanda from constant attempts of killing, maybe some multiple prophecies that duel with each other, or possibly Wanda ignoring clear signs that she needs to do X thing and Fate just finally shrugging its shoulders and giving up. At least the dynamic of Charlie vs. Fate has some interesting byplay when we see just how absurd things have to get in order to keep Parson around.
    There's already been contant attempts of killing Wanda and she escaping by absurd conditions:
    -Survived a battle in the Mee Kay between Charlie's archons with rifles then the free mancers ganking her.
    -Got sentenced to croak by the free mancers only to escape due to Ivan just dying.
    -Got ganked by archons with rifles again, refusing to team up with Charlie only for the thinkmancer gestalt to pop in at the last second.
    -Kept hanging in the underground instead of rushing back to her side only to finally a team of dirtmancers stopping her.

    And I'm not even counting earlier stuff like all the times in book 1 and 2 that Wanda tastes the dirt and luckily there happens to be an allied caster nearby with a healomancy scroll handy.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomaO2 View Post

    Now that the moment has finally arrived with a character that is Fated to keep living getting killed off, I want to see what is this "worse" thing that supposedly happens when fate is thwarted. I want reality to twist, for maybe some sort of natural reconjumancy to happen and things reset to the day before, but someone is now tasked to putting things back to right.

    There are so many interesting directions things can go, but we already know how this is going down, right?

    Awakened arkenepliers, as soon as this happens Fate goes, "guess we can kill wanda off in a meaningless manner and put her under the thumb of the pliers." Pliers then decrypt her. Instead of interesting mechanics, we just get a another bullcrap boop-pull to bring things back to normal.
    To be fair, people had been predicting "And now Wanda will be decrypted by her own pliers!" since book 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomaO2 View Post

    Boring. In the end, Fate always wins, and the rules will break in absurd ways to keep the status quo. It didn't need to go this way, and I don't know why Rob felt so strongly that we MUST have sentient Pliers to continue the story. One thing I really like about OOTS is that there are absolute limits on what you can do, and Rich also discourages the stuff that can quickly solve problems, like how long the resurrection of Roy took, or making sure V can't use teleport. One would think that a wargame/rpg would also have hard rules, but that just never seems to be the case. Rob just refuses to write higher stakes without pulling out bull**** for the protagonists to win.

    Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if Rob regrets making Parson the protagonist in the first place, a protagonist that uses his head to win wars has no place in a story like this, which we can clearly see by the fact of Parson being sidelined for such a long time, Rob had some good ideas during the first two books, but that well seems to have run dry.
    "Run dry" pretty much since it indeed feels like he's just been throwing stuff at the wall and pray something sticks for the last 2 books. "Awakened cities!" "Thinkmancer Gestalt!" "Awakened golems!" "Awakened arkentool!" "STRINGSSTRINGSSTRINGSbored now let's talk about city sign language".
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    I understand that Wanda has has a lot of machinations to save her, I didn't mean to imply that she didn't. I'm just pointing out that her dying at this point for something as mundane as rocks falling is a real let down. If a character that is protected by fate dies, then I expect epic reasoning as to why that is the case, along with big consequences.

    Neither of these things is the case, and I know the reason why is because Fate WANTS her to die, so the pliers can decrypt her, which makes her death worse than meaningless in my eyes. I'm sure Rob has a plan for why this is the case, but I just absolutely HATE the rule breaking power creep. I hate all of it.

    I'm sick of "Awakened cities!" "Thinkmancer Gestalt!" "Awakened golems!" "Awakened arkentool!" "STRINGSSTRINGSSTRINGS".

    I want a god damned strategy wargame, with some D&D elements. I want combat pragmatists, and interesting tactics. That is what was advertised when I came in, and this story is just not delivering.

    To be fair, people had been predicting "And now Wanda will be decrypted by her own pliers!" since book 2.
    Just because people can guess a story element, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to it.
    Actually, I take that back a bit, if the arkenpliers had attuned to a new person, and that person has ressed Wanda, I would be... okay with that. What I don't like is awakened pliers doing it.
    Last edited by tomaO2; 2018-10-12 at 02:28 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by tomaO2 View Post

    I want a god damned strategy wargame, with some D&D elements. I want combat pragmatists, and interesting tactics. That is what was advertised when I came in, and this story is just not delivering
    Well said! Remember Ansom and Trems and Vinnie? Rob clearly doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomaO2 View Post

    Just because people can guess a story element, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to it.
    Actually, I take that back a bit, if the arkenpliers had attuned to a new person, and that person has ressed Wanda, I would be... okay with that. What I don't like is awakened pliers doing it.
    Heh, technically the awakened pliers can't move on their own, so somebody will need to pick them up and "attune" enough to don't get their head made to explode so they can carry them to Wanda's corpse.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2018-10-12 at 01:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Pliers can decrypt anything in the hex. They don't need to be next to her, and I'm sure they know she just died.

    They'll probably decrypt her, and the other corpses, at the start of book 5.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Hmmm, can they on their own? Wanda was a croakmancer that could animate every body in an hex in her own. I always viewed the ability to hex decrypt was a combination of her magic with the pliers. With no Wanda, I don't think they can pull that trick by themselves, like Ansom couldn't decrypt anything at all, just use it as a melee weapon with bonus against uncroaked.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2018-10-12 at 02:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Wanda died as she lived. As a Rock(y) Horror Show.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Didn't Parson describe his rpg game as a scenario you need to cheat massively and do weird, nonsensical power ups to win? Later he also noted in book 1 the key to victory was magic threesomes? Clearly Rob likes these kind of games/stories.

    As for Wanda, I wonder how much rl influenced the story. It's very appealing in his kind of situation to think about Wanda dying then resurrecting without all the addiction/illness and Contract/insurance/loans drugging you down.
    Last edited by guttering flame; 2018-10-12 at 04:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by guttering flame View Post
    Didn't Parson describe his rpg game as a scenario you need to cheat massively and do weird, nonsensical power ups to win? Later he also noted in book 1 the key to victory was magic threesomes? Clearly Rob likes these kind of games/stories.

    As for Wanda, I wonder how much rl influenced the story. It's very appealing in his kind of situation to think about Wanda dying then resurrecting without all the addiction/illness and Contract/insurance/loans drugging you down.
    Sure, but in book one it was more of a one off climax after a series of tactical back and forths. Quite different from the complete nonsense we get now where rules are simply re-written on the fly to make the latest plot twists work.

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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by guttering flame View Post
    Didn't Parson describe his rpg game as a scenario you need to cheat massively and do weird, nonsensical power ups to win?
    Okay so,

    1) You made me go through nearly all of Book 1 to find the text where Parson said this.

    2) It's here on page 147. Basically yes, the players had to cheat and think of ways to break the rules.

    3) Boy did I enjoy the archive romp through Book 1. It's a grand and tight story. Thank you for that.
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!


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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaScribe View Post
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    I feel like crying myself. More Isacc?!

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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by guttering flame View Post
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    I feel like crying myself. More Isacc?!
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    Isaac wasn't that bad before he became Big Think and this Isaac does not seem to be Big Think. I also don't think he will become Big Think when he decrypts.
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2018-10-14 at 10:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Gotta love the "We're starting the new book but will only figure out the name later". In particular since they only came out with the name for book 4 literally after ending. So just more confirmation they've simply been improvising at the last minute for the last years.
    No. The title for book 4 was announced when they said "Oh, we're ending book 3 some 50 pages back, we are now in book 4 titled xxxxxxx".

    Meanwhile, I can remember "Hamster Dance vs the Charlie Foxtrot", but not the name of book 4.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    So, we are just starting with the whole "none of this (the deaths) matters" / "all of this (the deaths) anti-matters"? :-)

    (I'll see myself out.)
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by keybounce View Post
    Meanwhile, I can remember "Hamster Dance vs the Charlie Foxtrot", but not the name of book 4.
    Lies and Dolls.

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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by keybounce View Post
    So, we are just starting with the whole "none of this (the deaths) matters" / "all of this (the deaths) anti-matters"? :-)
    Well the Arkenpliers did say not to cry over exploding. Anti-matter tends to make anything that matters explode, so... ;)


    Pfft. vowel movement with spelling Arkenpliers.
    Last edited by DigoDragon; 2018-10-15 at 06:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaScribe View Post
    Lies and Dolls.
    I thought it was Strings and Exposition.
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    What's the difference?

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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yana View Post
    What's the difference?

    Statler and Waldorf: DOHOHOHOHOHO!
    You got me there, mate
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    >> Lies and Dolls.
    > I thought it was Strings and Exposition.

    Twists and Turns?
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    About the first epilogue:

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    Someone pointed in the Erfworld Forums that the Tool speech somewhat sounds like Wanda's Speech on book one afte being beaten by Ansom.

    And the way Isaac reacts after being chastised, not in awe from the Tool, but just speaking like to someone he already knew.

    Well, what if Wanda managed to transfer her own string to the Arkentool? After all, she had learned how to deal with strings when fighting Charlie for Lilith, and later used that knowledge to Bind Isaac's string to the Doll. She already had a strong link between her string and the tool on the attunement. If her imminent croaking was fated, as Wanda seemed to be aware, why not take that gamble? It would also allows her to fulfill her fate of serving with Jillian, who is also fated to one day attune with an Arkentool. And it's the convenient way for Wanda to bypass the deal of a lifetime. Also, it links obliquely with the book's overall theme of strings and puppets. Wanda becoming something that will be manipulated by other person.

    So, Wanda basically becomes a Soul Reaver. And there's the old annecdote that Wanda is a Chinese Plier manufacturer in our world.

    Edit: Oh, yes, and also there's giving sentience to each City's tower. She may have learned a few tricks from that.
    Last edited by Slayn82; 2018-10-18 at 07:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    Now you have me picturing someone using a Pretentious Fantasy Sword of Destiny for mundane tasks.

    "It is called Chirodin, Blade of Eternity! It was forged in the heart of the sun by the god Dathir, using the moon as a hammer and the corpse of Turtaris, Mother of All Dragons, as an anvil. No physical barrier can divert its blow, for it always goes exactly where its wielder wills it. So, as you can imagine, it cuts simply amazing flank steaks!"

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Ok, is the next book going to be "Tool Time"? :-)
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  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    We would need more grunting and adding more power to things that shouldn't have more power if that were the case.
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    Exactly!

    We need to add more power until the power level goes ... up to 9011.
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    Default Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

    New comic.

    Another problem resolved by brute force cheating.

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