Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Metaknight caused a lot of complaints in my playgroup back in Brawl, too. Mostly by tornado-spamming.

[tonberrian]

Maybe a compromise? There's secret characters you can unlock in vs mode or the 1 player adventure, but then there's also an option in settings that just unlocks them as well. Maybe one for trophies as well - i like getting trophies as rewards for things, but sometimes i just want to read the lore on them.

[Zevox]

Maybe a compromise? There's secret characters you can unlock in vs mode or the 1 player adventure, but then there's also an option in settings that just unlocks them as well. Maybe one for trophies as well - i like getting trophies as rewards for things, but sometimes i just want to read the lore on them.

Would be nice, but I wouldn't bet on it ever happening.

[deuterio12]

Your impression of how heavily he's requested is higher than mine then. As well as your impression of Waluigi's - since when does he have a serious fanbase, as opposed to the occasional random troll who says they'd like him in?

Waluigi still not being playable in Smash got its own entry in knowyourmeme and in other forums I hang around there were more people claiming to want him.

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Granted it may not be the more scientific source, but there's plenty of artists throwing in with Waluigi which shows he has some degree of popularity.

I recall Riddley for Smash getting a lot of memes and comics back in the day too (a good chunk of them being Samus personally vetoing the monster that killed her parents).

[Zevox]

Waluigi still not being playable in Smash got its own entry in knowyourmeme and in other forums I hang around there were more people claiming to want him.

Spoiler

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Granted it may not be the more scientific source, but there's plenty of artists throwing in with Waluigi which shows he has some degree of popularity.

I recall Riddley for Smash getting a lot of memes and comics back in the day too (a good chunk of them being Samus personally vetoing the monster that killed her parents).

...weird. The internet can truly be a baffling place...

[Zevox]

So, randomly thinking about possible Echo characters they might be saving for future reveals, it occurred to me that practically every third-party character has an obvious option.

Sonic -> Shadow (Maybe Tails, except Sonic's up throw has him hitting people with his spikey back, which wouldn't translate great to Tails.)
Mega Man -> Proto Man
Pac-Man -> Mrs. Pac-Man
Ryu -> Ken and/or Akuma
Bayonetta -> Jeanne (And/or Rosa, but Jeanne's far more likely.)

I'm not familiar enough with Metal Gear to know who, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's an easy one out there for Snake. (Raiden before he became a ninja cyborg? I think I heard he was the main character of MGS2.) Which would be everyone except Cloud. And you could probably throw in any random Final Fantasy protagonist that uses a big sword as an echo of him I suppose, but I'm not sure who FF fans would actually want for that, if anyone.

Honestly many of these are so obvious that I'll almost be more surprised if we don't see them. Sadly including Shadow since I don't think we've seen his assist trophy return yet, but they've highlighted the addition of Knuckles as a new assist trophy from the series both at E3 and in the post-Evo direct, which is a tad suspicious when you think of it in that light. But I'd be pretty happy to see Proto Man or Jeanne myself.

[Mando Knight]

Proto Man is unlikely since he was added to Mega's Final Smash (alongside Bass).

[Zevox]

Proto Man is unlikely since he was added to Mega's Final Smash (alongside Bass).

Not necessarily. Would be easy to just replace him in the Final Smash with Mega Man himself, wouldn't it?

[Rodin]

But not all unlocks are done in versus, are they? I mean, if they are, I'm sold. But I remember versions of Smash where the unlock condition was "beat this level" or "do this thing" or somesuch, frequently in solo play.

Sure, if it's just a case of "X hours spent in versus mode," that's fun for everybody. Except where everybody doesn't have their favorite character unlocked yet. But those guys are jerks.

Because they play Meta Knight.

It's generally pretty standard to have both, at least in Smash Bros. Most unlocks are typically "Do X in Solo mode, or Play Y VS matches". It's just a lot easier to unlock some of the characters via the other method, rather than knocking out 700 VS matches. Then again, if the only time you play Smash is with friends then those VS games would go by at a steady pace.

[tyckspoon]

I'm not familiar enough with Metal Gear to know who, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's an easy one out there for Snake. (Raiden before he became a ninja cyborg? I think I heard he was the main character of MGS2.) Which would be everyone except Cloud. And you could probably throw in any random Final Fantasy protagonist that uses a big sword as an echo of him I suppose, but I'm not sure who FF fans would actually want for that, if anyone.

The obvious one there would be Zack Fair, the character Cloud himself is an in-universe echo of. Although they're close enough together you could probably just have him represented as a palette swap/color choice of Cloud without much difficulty. Zack has featured as himself in a few games, tho, so there should sufficient material to create some altered moves or different traits to differentiate him adequately to make an echo rather than just a colorchange.

As for other big-sword users in FF.. honestly not too many come to mind, although I'm sure they exist. Gladiolus in FFXV is the only one I can readily think of that uses something as hilariously huge as Cloud's iconic Buster. Maybe Auron in X, although his style and presentation don't really match well with Cloud.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Maybe a compromise? There's secret characters you can unlock in vs mode or the 1 player adventure, but then there's also an option in settings that just unlocks them as well. Maybe one for trophies as well - i like getting trophies as rewards for things, but sometimes i just want to read the lore on them.

Honestly, that's a pretty neat solution. Give the grind to people who have fun with that, but for people who want access to those characters immediately, give them that option.

[Forum Explorer]

But not all unlocks are done in versus, are they? I mean, if they are, I'm sold. But I remember versions of Smash where the unlock condition was "beat this level" or "do this thing" or somesuch, frequently in solo play.

Sure, if it's just a case of "X hours spent in versus mode," that's fun for everybody. Except where everybody doesn't have their favorite character unlocked yet. But those guys are jerks.

Because they play Meta Knight.

I remember a smash bros having both. Play a bunch of verse (and it was a lot) to unlock the character, or beat a challenge to unlock them quickly.

[Jurai]

So, randomly thinking about possible Echo characters they might be saving for future reveals, it occurred to me that practically every third-party character has an obvious option.

Sonic -> Shadow (Maybe Tails, except Sonic's up throw has him hitting people with his spikey back, which wouldn't translate great to Tails.)
Mega Man -> Proto Man
Pac-Man -> Mrs. Pac-Man
Ryu -> Ken and/or Akuma
Bayonetta -> Jeanne (And/or Rosa, but Jeanne's far more likely.)

I'm not familiar enough with Metal Gear to know who, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's an easy one out there for Snake. (Raiden before he became a ninja cyborg? I think I heard he was the main character of MGS2.) Which would be everyone except Cloud. And you could probably throw in any random Final Fantasy protagonist that uses a big sword as an echo of him I suppose, but I'm not sure who FF fans would actually want for that, if anyone.

Honestly many of these are so obvious that I'll almost be more surprised if we don't see them. Sadly including Shadow since I don't think we've seen his assist trophy return yet, but they've highlighted the addition of Knuckles as a new assist trophy from the series both at E3 and in the post-Evo direct, which is a tad suspicious when you think of it in that light. But I'd be pretty happy to see Proto Man or Jeanne myself.

Tails could use his tails to damage enemies in flight (it's how you take out Robotnik in Marble Garden Zone as Solo Tails), so he could spin his tails to do that.

[chainer1216]

There was a new Nintendo Direct on the 20th where FIVE characters were announced as well as revealing that there will be over 100 stages, over 300 if you count hazardless ans Omega versions of each stage. Theres also a hidden game mode on the main menu that is almost certainly the return of a story mode.

[Rodin]

Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?

[Jurai]

Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?

Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter because he retains the spin as his down special (I think, I don't know how Smash 4 altered Mario's Pharmacopeia for handing prescriptions of KOs.) Falco has a much better aerial game, and his reflector is a projectile. Roy's not an Echo because his neutral special damages him.

[Mando Knight]

Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?

Falco was decloned in Brawl, and Wolf was designed with a unique moveset separate from Fox and Falco's (although their specials are similar). Similarly, Roy was extensively decloned in his DLC appearance in Smash 4, and those moveset changes have carried on to Ultimate. We don't know exactly how much Dr. Mario differs from regular Mario now (besides that he still has the Tornado move instead of Mario's FLUDD, and he got a new dair), nor exactly how much a cloned fighter can differ from its original and still count as an Echo (Chrom looks to have a different Up-B move than Roy, the largest moveset change known between the Echo fighters).

[Zevox]

There was a new Nintendo Direct on the 20th where FIVE characters were announced as well as revealing that there will be over 100 stages, over 300 if you count hazardless ans Omega versions of each stage. Theres also a hidden game mode on the main menu that is almost certainly the return of a story mode.

Uh, that was on the 8th, not the 20th, and is what my first post is about.

Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?

I agree that they're a bit inconsistent about labeling some of the older characters as Echos. Some of the original clones were substantially enough changed that they're practically wholly different - Falco and Ganondorf especially - but Roy and Doctor Mario have only a couple of moves altered in more than their physics properties. And they're clearly willing to label characters as Echos even if there's a slight moveset difference since they just revealed Chrom, who from footage looks to be an echo of Roy (his jab is the new one Roy got in Smash 4, and his neutral special is vertical like Roy's instead of horizontal like Marth's), but has Ike's Aether as his up special instead of Roy's. Which is obviously appropriate since Chrom learns Aether in his game, but still, bit of a snag in any claim that the "Echo" label is reserved only for the cloniest clones. (Personally I wish they'd just made Chrom a lighter-weight Echo of Ike instead, but eh.)

As for how Falco isn't a clone, he had a lot of moves changed to be wholly different from Fox's in Brawl. His jab, up tilt, nair, fair, fsmash, and reflector special are all now unique to him. He's not quite as differentiated as, say, a Lucas or Luigi, who resemble Ness and Mario only in passing on a few moves and really aren't clones at all, but he's much more his own character than he was before. And Wolf was never a clone and is in the Lucas/Luigi category; the only similarities he shares to Fox are his specials being broadly similar - blaster neutral, reflector down, etc - but they're quite different in animation and actual effect (his blaster being a single slow shot with a lot of hitstun vs Fox's being rapid-fire but causing no hitstun), and his normals aren't shared with Fox in the slightest.

Doctor Mario, Roy, and probably Pichu though should likely be labeled as Echoes but aren't. Maybe Young Link too, though I guess with the changes to the regular Link in this game you can make the argument that he shouldn't anymore.

[Forum Explorer]

Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?

Roy at least, changed quite a bit from Marth when his DLC was released. They aren't very similar at all now. Falco and Dr. Mario have different effects for their moves, and much different weights. So I'm guessing Echos are literally just reskins, with no weight or move differences.

[chainer1216]

Uh, that was on the 8th, not the 20th, and is what my first post is about.

but i...i even googled it the double check...how did i...?

anyway, sorry for being dumb.

[danzibr]

I’m guessing echoes will be ever so slightly different. Like Marth v Lucinda sweet spot.

[Zevox]

Roy at least, changed quite a bit from Marth when his DLC was released. They aren't very similar at all now. Falco and Dr. Mario have different effects for their moves, and much different weights. So I'm guessing Echos are literally just reskins, with no weight or move differences.

I’m guessing echoes will be ever so slightly different. Like Marth v Lucinda sweet spot.

Yeah, none of the Echos/clones that we know of are or have ever been completely just reskins. Lucina is the one most similar to her original as of Smash 4, and even she still has the tipper mechanic removed and the damage of her attacks normalized relative to Marth's. Dark Pit is the next closest, and he still has various physics differences from Pit (i.e. Pit's side special launches enemies vertically, Dark Pit's launches more horizontally).

Not sure about some of the new ones yet, haven't seen much of Daisy, Richter, or Dark Samus. But as mentioned before it's obvious that Chrom isn't an exact copy of Roy since he has Ike's up special, Aether. So to all appearances Echos will have small differences from their originals - which is a pretty good description of Roy, Doctor Mario, and Pichu, unless they've had more changes I haven't heard of.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, none of the Echos/clones that we know of are or have ever been completely just reskins. Lucina is the one most similar to her original as of Smash 4, and even she still has the tipper mechanic removed and the damage of her attacks normalized relative to Marth's. Dark Pit is the next closest, and he still has various physics differences from Pit (i.e. Pit's side special launches enemies vertically, Dark Pit's launches more horizontally).

Not sure about some of the new ones yet, haven't seen much of Daisy, Richter, or Dark Samus. But as mentioned before it's obvious that Chrom isn't an exact copy of Roy since he has Ike's up special, Aether. So to all appearances Echos will have small differences from their originals - which is a pretty good description of Roy, Doctor Mario, and Pichu, unless they've had more changes I haven't heard of.

Roy at least is pretty dramatically different by his DLC. I guess we'll see if Doctor Mario and Pichu got some new changes.

[Maryring]

Maybe it's about how different the fighters play? Back in Melee, Pichu may have had the same moveset as Pikachu, but she was still a fragile little thing inferior in almost every way as an intentional hard mode character, with the primary advantage being having the best agility for grabbing items. Playing Pikachu and Pichu well required rather different strategies. Or maybe they just don't want Pichu and Pikachu to be compared closely because of Pichu's self-damage mechanic.

[Jama7301]

I was operating under the assumption that Chrom was an Echo of Ike, instead of Roy. I'd have to check that video again.

It seems like the Echo version has slight adjustments, like launch/recovery angles, or slight variants to the moves. If they have wholesale new moves or replacement moves, I think that gets them separated from the main fighters.

Riiiiichteeeeeeeer!

[Jurai]

What is an echo fighter? A miserable little clone with minor changes! But enough talk, have at you!

[Zevox]

Roy at least is pretty dramatically different by his DLC. I guess we'll see if Doctor Mario and Pichu got some new changes.

While I never bought Roy and so don't have firsthand experience with him in Smash 4, the only new move I recall him getting is his jab. And if you're referring to physics properties and the like, he had differences there back in Melee too, as have basically all clones in the franchise to date other than Lucina.

Maybe it's about how different the fighters play? Back in Melee, Pichu may have had the same moveset as Pikachu, but she was still a fragile little thing inferior in almost every way as an intentional hard mode character, with the primary advantage being having the best agility for grabbing items. Playing Pikachu and Pichu well required rather different strategies. Or maybe they just don't want Pichu and Pikachu to be compared closely because of Pichu's self-damage mechanic.

You just described all clones, though. Small differences in how they work lead to small differences in how people play them.

I was operating under the assumption that Chrom was an Echo of Ike, instead of Roy. I'd have to check that video again.

Nope. I'd have thought that's what they'd do, but all of his moves except Aether are of the Marth variety - even in the direct you saw him perform several of Marth's aerials up close. And a video they've released since the direct showing him and Lucina fighting Dark Samus and Ridley had enough footage to identify him as specifically being an echo of Roy rather than Marth - he has Roy's new jab. But also Aether.

[Jama7301]

Nope. I'd have thought that's what they'd do, but all of his moves except Aether are of the Marth variety - even in the direct you saw him perform several of Marth's aerials up close. And a video they've released since the direct showing him and Lucina fighting Dark Samus and Ridley had enough footage to identify him as specifically being an echo of Roy rather than Marth - he has Roy's new jab. But also Aether.

Man, that's weird. He just feels like he'd be a bulkier fighter. Maybe that's how he'll Echo Roy/Marth. Keep some of the quickness while having some more weight to resist being launched.

[Resileaf]

What is an echo fighter? A miserable little clone with minor changes! But enough talk, have at you!

Dracula had better show up as a stage hazard/boss to throw glasses of wine at people.

[Zevox]

Man, that's weird. He just feels like he'd be a bulkier fighter. Maybe that's how he'll Echo Roy/Marth. Keep some of the quickness while having some more weight to resist being launched.

I know, right? I mean, he is technically Marth's descendant, so I could see them wanting him to have a connection to him in-game - but if he's a Roy echo, then technically he only even has that secondhand. I'm hoping that in terms of his weight class he falls in between Roy and Ike, that seems like the most appropriate range for him.

Dracula had better show up as a stage hazard/boss to throw glasses of wine at people.

I don't know about throwing wine, but he's definitely a stage hazard/boss, along with something like a dozen other Castlevania bosses. They showed that off in the direct when Simon was announced.