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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    You just described all clones, though. Small differences in how they work lead to small differences in how people play them.
    With the topic at hand you know perfectly well that was not the purpose of the message. Of course any speculation about why some clones are echos and some aren't will touch upon what distinctions exist.

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maryring View Post
    With the topic at hand you know perfectly well that was not the purpose of the message. Of course any speculation about why some clones are echos and some aren't will touch upon what distinctions exist.
    ...but my point is that there really isn't a distinction there. The difference between Pichu and Pikachu is in no way larger than that between known echoes, and is likely less than that between Roy and Chrom, since Chrom at least has one move completely different from Roy, which isn't the case for Pichu unless something has changed.

    All I'm saying is that they are likely being inconsistent with their labeling of echoes. Which seems pretty obvious I think. If it were everyone that was clearly based on someone else at all it would make sense. If it were everyone less distinct from their originals than Falco it would make sense. If it were only characters with no moves that differ from their originals it would make sense. But it's none of those things, and it's easy to identify a few clones that aren't being categorized as echoes who seem no more distinct from their originals in any way than the characters who are being categorized as echoes. The natural conclusion isn't that there's some extremely fine hair being split that we're not privy to, but that they're simply being inconsistent, I'd say.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    ...but my point is that there really isn't a distinction there. The difference between Pichu and Pikachu is in no way larger than that between known echoes, and is likely less than that between Roy and Chrom, since Chrom at least has one move completely different from Roy, which isn't the case for Pichu unless something has changed.

    All I'm saying is that they are likely being inconsistent with their labeling of echoes. Which seems pretty obvious I think. If it were everyone that was clearly based on someone else at all it would make sense. If it were everyone less distinct from their originals than Falco it would make sense. If it were only characters with no moves that differ from their originals it would make sense. But it's none of those things, and it's easy to identify a few clones that aren't being categorized as echoes who seem no more distinct from their originals in any way than the characters who are being categorized as echoes. The natural conclusion isn't that there's some extremely fine hair being split that we're not privy to, but that they're simply being inconsistent, I'd say.
    What I find odd is that they've chosen to define it at all. There were plenty of Clone/Echo characters in the previous games and everyone just sort of shrugged and moved on. Given that several characters have been getting further and further from their original with each game (I note that Ganondorf finally has his sword, for example), choosing to now make an Echo label that is not consistent seems strange. That's why I was wondering if there is some special property of Echo characters, like having them be chosen as different "skins" of existing characters to try and save space on the character select screen - kind of like the EX versions of characters in Guilty Gear.

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Until we know anything else specific, Echo is otherwise really just a term for "Clones introduced after Brawl"--the Smash 4 clones are Echos, Toon Link (whose clone status is a bit odd in that he replaced Young Link wholesale for two games) and the Melee clones aren't.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    What I find odd is that they've chosen to define it at all. There were plenty of Clone/Echo characters in the previous games and everyone just sort of shrugged and moved on. Given that several characters have been getting further and further from their original with each game (I note that Ganondorf finally has his sword, for example), choosing to now make an Echo label that is not consistent seems strange. That's why I was wondering if there is some special property of Echo characters, like having them be chosen as different "skins" of existing characters to try and save space on the character select screen - kind of like the EX versions of characters in Guilty Gear.
    Likely because the reaction to them in the past wasn't "shrug and move on," it was "be angry that character slots were wasted on them." There was a lot of complaining about Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario in Smash 4 because of their clone status. Heck, I even recall back in the Brawl days when some people were upset that both Ike and Marth were in the game, because the relative scarcity of pre-release examples of how they play lead some people to believe that Ike was a Marth clone, so they assumed he was replacing him. Or I've seen people complain that Lucario is a Mewtwo clone when literally the only thing they have that's even similar is their neutral special move.

    Openly acknowledging that these characters are different and saying "hey, we're just throwing them in because it's easy to make them, they're not taking any spots that would have gone to anyone else" has made the reception of them a lot better this time, at least from what little I've seen.

    They did mention in the last direct that Echo characters can be set to display either as a smaller part of their original in the character select screen or to have their own space though, to answer that part of your speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Until we know anything else specific, Echo is otherwise really just a term for "Clones introduced after Brawl"--the Smash 4 clones are Echos, Toon Link (whose clone status is a bit odd in that he replaced Young Link wholesale for two games) and the Melee clones aren't.
    Eh, Toon Link's also in the same category as Falco - some of his moves are take from the original Link, but not all. All of Link's kick attacks were replaced by various sword slashes, and his fair is also completely different, where Young Link had just taken Link's moves wholesale. And at least in the past two games his boomerang just being a regular one rather than the gale boomerang was a notable difference, though now that's gone since regular Link is back to a normal boomerang. Having the hookshot for his grab is a significant difference now though since Link lost that.

    But you are right, at this point the Echo label has only been applied to characters who originated in Smash 4 and later. And the ones that are similar enough to their originals that this seems inconsistent are the Melee clones in particular (aside from Falco and Ganondorf).
    Last edited by Zevox; 2018-08-25 at 10:15 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I thought that stage was that big plains one from Xenoblade? Would be surprised if they slipped up enough to show us part of that new mode they teased like that, when they could have just announced Rathalos as an assist trophy and saved the boss reveal for later if they wanted to.
    Nope, Its a new stage based from MH4. Drácula is also fought in a different place to the one used to play.

    And speaking of Echoes, from what I understand they have to have the same basic skeleton, shares almost all moves and the have to have the same weight and moving speed.

    Pichu is lighter than Pikachu. Doc Mario is slower than Mario.
    Last edited by DaOldeWolf; 2018-08-25 at 11:08 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    But will it have Geno ; j

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by itskando View Post
    But will it have Geno ; j
    My bet would be "no," but at this point, who knows? Aside from maybe Dixie Kong, all of what I'd call the most likely choices for the roster are now present and accounted for. Kind of a crapshoot who might be left - besides that there's probably not many left, since we were specifically told that bringing back everyone would mean there would be fewer newcomers this time.

    About the only safe-ish bet is that there's probably going to be a new Pokémon from one of the newer games, since that always seems to happen.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2018-09-05 at 10:34 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    About the only safe-ish bet is that there's probably going to be a new Pokémon from one of the newer games, since that always seems to happen.
    They skipped giving Gen III and V representatives, and probably will do the same for VII (if we do get a VII rep, it's probably either Incineroar or Decidueye). Sakurai apparently picked out Greninja as the Gen VI rep before XY was even released, so it's possible we might see a Gen VIII 'mon make its debut in Smash Ultimate the way Roy did in Melee.

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    They skipped giving Gen III and V representatives, and probably will do the same for VII (if we do get a VII rep, it's probably either Incineroar or Decidueye). Sakurai apparently picked out Greninja as the Gen VI rep before XY was even released, so it's possible we might see a Gen VIII 'mon make its debut in Smash Ultimate the way Roy did in Melee.
    *shrug* Hey, I haven't played a Pokémon game since Gen 4, and barely played that. I'm making no assumptions or guesses about who the new Pokémon may be (couldn't if I tried, since I don't know what's out there to choose from), just observing that there being at least one new Pokémon has been a consistent thing every game, and one from a newer title is probably a safer bet than an older one.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I'm hoping that in terms of his weight class he falls in between Roy and Ike, that seems like the most appropriate range for him.
    If weights are anything like previous generations, this will be very difficult not to achieve.

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    I'm so looking forward for this game. I'm going to play Ness and he'll be an Omega Supreme God-Tier character and he'll the living daylights out of everybody.

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    So, a Nintendo Direct happened this afternoon, and we got another newcomer announced: an Animal Crossing character named Isabelle.

    Huh. Did not see that coming - I figured the Villager was all that franchise really needed. And she seems to have at least some things in common with him, although she's definitely no echo. Eh, whatever I guess, there's probably some people that'll be happy to see her.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Shes actually quite popular and ive seen her on pretty much every potential character list ive checked out.
    Last edited by chainer1216; 2018-09-13 at 11:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by chainer1216 View Post
    Shes actually quite popular and ive seen her on pretty much every potential character list ive checked out.
    She's also ventured outside her home series before--she's an Assist Trophy (and also a Mii Gunner costume) in Smash 4, and one of the DLC characters in Mario Kart 8.

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    I wonder what do people in here think of the box theory?

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    Last edited by DaOldeWolf; 2018-09-17 at 08:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaOldeWolf View Post
    I wonder what do people in here think of the box theory?

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    Sounds quite plausible. We were told to expect fewer newcomers this time around, so I've been figuring only 2-3 more maybe, besides echoes, and that was before Isabelle. The only thing about it that would confuse me is their decision to hold only one echo and one unique newcomer for the last three months before release, while revealing so many at once in the post-Evo Direct (two full newcomers and three echoes). Seems like that could have been spaced out better if that's indeed what we're looking at for the final roster size. But eh, could be they're counting on the mystery mode to be a big reveal that builds excitement in lieu of characters too.
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    My primary guess/hope for a newcomer is Neku, from The World Ends With You.

    - Nintendo is being more willing to let in third-parties
    - SquareEnix has already shown they're willing to send Cloud to Smash; at least Neku's been on Nintendo systems before
    - The World Ends With You is getting a remake for Switch soon, so that's a nice little bit of cross-promotion
    - Neku's got a crazy-wide set of attacks in TWEWY, so there's plenty of room to go with any fighting style they could think of and still accurately represent someone's playstyle.
    - He's not yet-another-guy-with-a-sword, which is sort of my personal pet peeve about the roster. Too many swordsmen.
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    - He's not yet-another-guy-with-a-sword, which is sort of my personal pet peeve about the roster. Too many swordsmen.
    I always get really annoyed by that complaint. It makes no sense - there's more unarmed fighters in the game than swordsmen, yet nobody has a problem with getting more of those, even though it's just as true that there's only so many ways to punch or kick someone as it is that there's only so many ways to swing a sword. It's pure nonsense for how a character fights to be an issue, unless they don't fight at all - and even those can be worked out if you really try and are willing to let them be kind of goofy (see Phoenix Wright being playable in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3).
    Last edited by Zevox; 2018-10-05 at 08:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    I hope Waluigi going to be in this game.

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    I'm likely one of the very few people who want this, but I hope Krystal is a newcomer to the game. And I hope she uses her staff as a weapon, because I actually really did like Star Fox Adventures. Also it's a style of fighting we actually don't have at all.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I hope Waluigi going to be in this game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'm likely one of the very few people who want this, but I hope Krystal is a newcomer to the game. And I hope she uses her staff as a weapon, because I actually really did like Star Fox Adventures. Also it's a style of fighting we actually don't have at all.
    Both have been shown already as assist trophies, so nope, not playable.

    Krystal is one that I would kind of like to see someday - used to be one I was genuinely hoping for back in the Brawl days, I was disappointed when Wolf become the 3rd Star Fox character instead of her. But I'm not expecting her to ever make it at this point, with Star Fox having been all but dead for so long and its attempted return not going so hot (plus I think she wasn't even in that game, so they might be dropping her from her own series).

    Waluigi though can stay an AT forever as far as I'm concerned - or at least until Nintendo starts doing something with him besides being roster filler in the Mario spinoffs. I'd rather see major characters from other franchises than a character as minor as him.

    On the subject of assist trophies you wish were playable, Lyn from Fire Emblem and Midna from Zelda are the big two for me. Lyn's long been my favorite character from her franchise, and I've love to see her as a super-speedy type, perhaps to the point where only Sonic and maybe Captain Falcon were faster than her. Fire Emblem Warriors got her down pretty darn well, it'd be nice to see Smash take some cues from that. And Midna could bring a magic-centric play style to smash, which we don't have that many of (Robin and Palutena to some extent, but that's about it), and IMO is still the best character in the Zelda franchise's history outside of the big 3. But alas, both also known to be assist trophies, and most likely any window of opportunity they ever had to be playable is past.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Both have been shown already as assist trophies, so nope, not playable.

    Krystal is one that I would kind of like to see someday - used to be one I was genuinely hoping for back in the Brawl days, I was disappointed when Wolf become the 3rd Star Fox character instead of her. But I'm not expecting her to ever make it at this point, with Star Fox having been all but dead for so long and its attempted return not going so hot (plus I think she wasn't even in that game, so they might be dropping her from her own series).

    Waluigi though can stay an AT forever as far as I'm concerned - or at least until Nintendo starts doing something with him besides being roster filler in the Mario spinoffs. I'd rather see major characters from other franchises than a character as minor as him.

    On the subject of assist trophies you wish were playable, Lyn from Fire Emblem and Midna from Zelda are the big two for me. Lyn's long been my favorite character from her franchise, and I've love to see her as a super-speedy type, perhaps to the point where only Sonic and maybe Captain Falcon were faster than her. Fire Emblem Warriors got her down pretty darn well, it'd be nice to see Smash take some cues from that. And Midna could bring a magic-centric play style to smash, which we don't have that many of (Robin and Palutena to some extent, but that's about it), and IMO is still the best character in the Zelda franchise's history outside of the big 3. But alas, both also known to be assist trophies, and most likely any window of opportunity they ever had to be playable is past.
    The latest Star Fox game was a reboot so Krystal wasn't in it, and yeah it went poorly because they decided on a retarded control scheme. I hope that it didn't kill the series, and that they do end up bringing Krystal back.

    Midna would be another cool one, with her riding wolf link to boot.
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Midna would be another cool one, with her riding wolf link to boot.
    If she had to I suppose, though personally I'd actually prefer they didn't do that and just had her floating around in Imp form. Because I want to play as Midna, not so much Wolf Link.
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    If she had to I suppose, though personally I'd actually prefer they didn't do that and just had her floating around in Imp form. Because I want to play as Midna, not so much Wolf Link.
    Imp form would be cool, but there's more room for abilities if they add Wolf Link. Either way though she basically has a final smash built in with her Shadow Relics attack.

    Oooh, but you know what I really wish for? That they change Ganondorfs move set entirely.
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Imp form would be cool, but there's more room for abilities if they add Wolf Link. Either way though she basically has a final smash built in with her Shadow Relics attack.

    Oooh, but you know what I really wish for? That they change Ganondorfs move set entirely.
    Yeah, that's long overdue for sure. I'm honestly surprised we got his new smash attacks this time - after they didn't touch him in Brawl or 4, I figured we were just stuck with him like that forever. Maybe if we get lucky they'll keep changing a little bit each game and eventually he'll have a full moveset that actually reflects his character.
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    What about Mallo for one of those... ??? ...characters? (Ness, G&W, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer...)

    I haven't seen one shown for this one, but there's seems to always be a new one in the roster. I suppose Isabelle could count for this, though. Even though her announcement didn't surprise me to nearly the degree as the others...

    Of course at this point I'm sort of amazed there's as many characters in there as there have been shown, so I won't really have any complaints about missing options.
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Qwertystop's Avatar

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    What about Mallo for one of those... ??? ...characters? (Ness, G&W, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer...)

    I haven't seen one shown for this one, but there's seems to always be a new one in the roster. I suppose Isabelle could count for this, though. Even though her announcement didn't surprise me to nearly the degree as the others...

    Of course at this point I'm sort of amazed there's as many characters in there as there have been shown, so I won't really have any complaints about missing options.
    Wait, why are you including Ness on that list? EarthBound is old now, but it wasn't when Smash 64 came out (and MOTHER 3 for N64 hadn't been announced as cancelled yet).
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    So it was announced today that there will be a Smash-specific Nintendo Direct on Thursday morning (10 am eastern/7 pacific). A very big one, apparently, at 40 minutes long. For comparison, the big direct from August that announced all that stuff I summarized in the thread's first post was "only" 27 minutes long.

    Yeah, between that length and the fact that we're only a little over a month away from the release date, I think we're getting the final big pre-release infodump. Darn shame that it's in the middle of the morning, I'd like to be able to actually watch this one as it airs, but no way I can do so at that time on a work day. Oh well, I'll watch it on lunch that day I guess.
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    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I always get really annoyed by that complaint. It makes no sense - there's more unarmed fighters in the game than swordsmen, yet nobody has a problem with getting more of those, even though it's just as true that there's only so many ways to punch or kick someone as it is that there's only so many ways to swing a sword. It's pure nonsense for how a character fights to be an issue, unless they don't fight at all - and even those can be worked out if you really try and are willing to let them be kind of goofy (see Phoenix Wright being playable in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3).
    For my personal opinion, I don't care that much about the number of sword-fighters, but I've seen a part of the argument I can somewhat understand. Fire Emblem representatives in particular are all sword-wielders (with Robin and Corrin being the ones that least focus on that, but still wield them), but the franchise is rather notable for its Weapon Triangle system, so there's a wish that FE representatives would represent more of those weapon styles (axes or spears being the most obvious picks).
    Last edited by Tsuzurao; 2018-10-30 at 06:29 PM.

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