Harry Potter magic question

[Peelee]

2) As towards "magic not having permanent effects" , remember that Avara Kedavra does have a permanent effect; I surmise that even though the effect is technically temporary , the resulting physical effects are permanent.

"Permanent" effect as in "ongoing magical" effect.

[Douglas]

This seems less "Methods of Rationality" and more "Methods of Random Stuff Is Funny Bark Apple Mousepad lol"

It's kind of For Want of a Nail and butterfly effects on a massive scale, with a magic oracle telling which nails need to be lost and which butterflies need to flap their wings for the right large scale outcome to happen, but not the chain of cause and effect that links them.

In any case, this aspect of the story is very much in the background, with only a single scene that focuses on it near the end, and that scene really just explains that it was there.

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As for those specific actions:

• Giving Harry the potion as a child made conventional schooling impractical for him and forced his adopted parents to hire private tutors and do other such things to give him a good education, which naturally made the lessons themselves more customized for him and gave him a level and pace of learning that matched his (much higher than in canon) intelligence. The ways it impacted his life may also have affected his character and personality in any number of ways.
• Smashing his pet rock resulted in him not getting an owl, because he felt that since he had failed at caring for even so non-demanding a pet as a rock, he'd surely fail at caring for an actual living creature. I think he knew this was irrational, but feelings don't usually listen to logic very well so he'd be constantly anxious about it and he didn't think having the owl was worth the anxiety. I don't recall anything specific for why him not having an owl mattered, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some point in the story where having an owl would have given Harry an alternative action to take.

[Peelee]

It's kind of For Want of a Nail and butterfly effects on a massive scale, with a magic oracle telling which nails need to be lost and which butterflies need to flap their wings for the right large scale outcome to happen, but not the chain of cause and effect that links them.

In any case, this aspect of the story is very much in the background, with only a single scene that focuses on it near the end, and that scene really just explains that it was there.

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As for those specific actions:

• Giving Harry the potion as a child made conventional schooling impractical for him and forced his adopted parents to hire private tutors and do other such things to give him a good education, which naturally made the lessons themselves more customized for him and gave him a level and pace of learning that matched his (much higher than in canon) intelligence. The ways it impacted his life may also have affected his character and personality in any number of ways.
• Smashing his pet rock resulted in him not getting an owl, because he felt that since he had failed at caring for even so non-demanding a pet as a rock, he'd surely fail at caring for an actual living creature. I think he knew this was irrational, but feelings don't usually listen to logic very well so he'd be constantly anxious about it and he didn't think having the owl was worth the anxiety. I don't recall anything specific for why him not having an owl mattered, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some point in the story where having an owl would have given Harry an alternative action to take.

Oh, ok. I figured it was the want-for-a-nail type of thing, but I also assumed that it was never explained and just tossed in there without being addressed later. Thanks!

[Douglas]

Oh, ok. I figured it was the want-for-a-nail type of thing, but I also assumed that it was never explained and just tossed in there without being addressed later. Thanks!

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The pet rock thing actually first comes up as Harry explaining to McGonagall why he doesn't want an owl, and then over a hundred chapters later you get the whole "Dumbledore listened to every prophecy" explanation with an incidental mention of "I smashed a rock on your windowsill and I still have no idea why."

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: MOR

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It's not changing the rules of the setting, it's having one character in a position of authority deliberately override those rules. Dumbledore knew from hearing every prophecy in the Department of Mysteries that Harry must get a Time Turner for events to work out well, so Dumbledore exerts his influence to make sure it happens.

No. For that to work, a Sleep Disorder has to be a valid excuse to give someone a Time Turner. In HP Canon, there's no way that would happen. So it's a work changing the rules of the canon society, then jeering at the society's rules that it has just made up as though they were in the original canon.

HPMOR is a fanfiction. If you can enjoy and appreciate it as such, I think you'll find the story enjoyable. But it is not a better story than Rowling's original; it is a derivative work of art to be judged on its own merits.

Normally, this is true. But if a work changes the rules of the original work in order to sneer at those rules as though they were in the original work, it's a valid criticism to point out that it never worked that way to begin with.

[Douglas]

Spoiler: MOR

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No. For that to work, a Sleep Disorder has to be a valid excuse to give someone a Time Turner. In HP Canon, there's no way that would happen. So it's a work changing the rules of the canon society, then jeering at the society's rules that it has just made up as though they were in the original canon.



Normally, this is true. But if a work changes the rules of the original work in order to sneer at those rules as though they were in the original work, it's a valid criticism to point out that it never worked that way to begin with.

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It has to be believable to Harry. That's it. Harry is utterly flabbergasted by it, but he has no better explanation, no easy source to seek one from, and no particular reason to try. Dumbledore knows the real reason. McGonagall may not know anything more than "Dumbledore said so". Of the few other people who ever find out or deduce that Harry has a Time Turner, none of them are ever given a reason for why.

[Keltest]

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I think its important to point out that in the actual canon, Dumbledore makes a point of emphasizing that prophecies only have as much meaning as somebody chooses to give them. The entire sequence of events requires a massive deviation from a very explicit position held by a major character, on top of all the other character assassination that goes on.

Im with Grey Wolf here. I can see how one would consider it a decent fanfiction, but its not remotely related to HP aside from the names.

[deuterio12]

Im with Grey Wolf here. I can see how one would consider it a decent fanfiction, but its not remotely related to HP aside from the names.

Pretty much, only borrowing names from a popular work as a cheap way to get attention.

[SaintRidley]

This says everything about that piece of writing I could ever care to say.

[The Glyphstone]

This says everything about that piece of writing I could ever care to say.

This is fascinating. One smart person uses words I dont understand, another smart person says those words are used wrongly. But pickled snark is the best snark, so thanks for linking this.

[Peelee]

This is fascinating. One smart person uses words I dont understand, another smart person says those words are used wrongly. But pickled snark is the best snark, so thanks for linking this.

Indeed; I haven't even read MOR, but that was pretty fun to read, at the very least.

[Tyndmyr]

Not having read MoR far enough to get to this bit, my first immediate problem with the whole scenario is that "a potion potion to lengthen his cycle permanently" is not just uncanonical in that no "cycle lengthening" magic exists the books (in fact, I'm having trouble even picturing what that means. That for Harry times passes more slowly? That he doesn't need to sleep?), but far more importantly, no potion ever has permanent effects. No magic does. There is a single counter example, and it is an artifact of mythical fame.

If what little I read about MoR is an indication, I do predict that this uncanonical potion will then be used to make a point about the HP verse, and I confidently predict it will be fatally flawed by its lack of canonical existence, rendering the whole exercise a pointless waste of words.

Not the case. It's just a handy setup to bring in the time turner, because MoR is shorter than canon, and if you're doing a fanfic, you want to hit as many of the traditional established plot devices as possible.

With maybe a side order of Dumbledore being a schemer, but hey, that's not much of a change.

MoR *is* derisive towards canon at times, and sure, not all of it is entirely justified, but there's a good deal more to the book than that, and a fair bit of that can be written up to Harry being a bit full of himself. It does impose a few more rules on magic than canon does, but those selfsame rules are not generally the reasons for parody and mockery.

As for magic not having permanent effects in canon HP, we're given endless magical effects and artifacts that are either permanent or longer than a lifespan in terms of how long they last. The specific example is invented, but is not ludicrous given other feats magic performs in canon*HP.

As for the owl thing:

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Because otherwise owling people hand grenades is on the table. Presumably Harry pursuing this would have led to an unfortunate outcome

The work isn't perfect, and some characters are wildly different than in canon, but it's a fun take on it all in all.

As to the review though...he definitely misread the courtroom scene. "harry is above the law" is not a reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from the events shown there. Not in the slightest.

As for the battle games...battle games basically take the place of quidditch. It's a change, and yeah, the author hates quidditch, but if one thinks it's unreasonable that the characters care about team sports, even ones which don't determine championships, then....I'm confused as to how the reviewer regards real world sports. 'sfine if you don't like them, but it's not a plot hole that people do.

The afterlife thing is similar. The story deals with such things as ghosts, visions, etc in a consistent fashion. It's okay if the reviewer doesn't like that part of the tale, but it's certainly not a plot hole.

Overall, I'd probably give the story a 3.5. Definitely some flaws, but nothing terribly damning.

[warty goblin]

As for the owl thing:

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Because otherwise owling people hand grenades is on the table. Presumably Harry pursuing this would have led to an unfortunate outcome

Meh, that's weaksauce when it comes to magical terrorism. House elf bombings are where it's at. Extreme range, instant delivery, and apparently capable of penetrating every form of magical defense. House elf apparates in, drops a present filled with high explosives and ball bearings on a 2 second timer, then apparates out.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

This says everything about that piece of writing I could ever care to say.

I'm simply amused by the fact that he refers to "Harry" as "Hariezer", and I'm 'seriously' unsure why.

Also, having also read MoR, he says several things which are just factually untrue, and make me question his perspective on the story (as in, his extreme negative reaction on it causes him to create or balloon up flaws within it).

[Gnoman]

I'm simply amused by the fact that he refers to "Harry" as "Hariezer", and I'm 'seriously' unsure why.

The author of the fic is named Eliezer, and this version of Harry is a blatant author-insert. Thus, "Hariezer".

[Epinephrine_Syn]

The author of the fic is named Eliezer, and this version of Harry is a blatant author-insert. Thus, "Hariezer".

That makes sense. I imagined it was something that made sense when put into the perspective of the blog itself. I do agree that "blatant self-insertion" is a problem with the series, also.

[The Glyphstone]

He even says the portmanteau isnt as funny as he thought at first, but sticks with it on principle.

[Peelee]

He even says the portmanteau isnt as funny as he thought at first, but sticks with it on principle.

It's far less annoyong than the summaries of the text, which read like prime material from the verysmart subreddit. I honestly don't know how y'all were able to read the actual thing.

[pendell]

As for the battle games...battle games basically take the place of quidditch. It's a change, and yeah, the author hates quidditch, but if one thinks it's unreasonable that the characters care about team sports, even ones which don't determine championships, then....I'm confused as to how the reviewer regards real world sports. 'sfine if you don't like them, but it's not a plot hole that people do.

As a matter of taste I greatly preferred MOR's Ender's game parody. Firstly, because I hate quidditch. It's a game cleverly disguised as a team game but the only thing that's really important is the seeker grabbing the snitch. It's a clear setup for Harry in the original story to be an athletic hero, and it would frankly be boring to watch. It's also because I enjoyed the original Ender's game , and finally because of chapter 30 . I mean, c'mon, who doesn't love a story where Hariezer's army marches into battle shouting "SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!"

Chaos Legion, get it? I guess this Harry has WH40K miniatures back in his room.

I also appreciated the fact that one of the opponents took the time to train their army in the style used by real wizarding armies and who was soundly clobbered because of it .

Spoiler: Reason

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"So let me guess," Harry said, looking Draco directly in the eyes, "those neat little trios are the formation used by professional magical militaries? Made up of trained soldiers who can easily hit moving targets if their own hands are steady, and who can combine their defensive powers so long as they stay together? Unlike your soldiers?"

The smirk had vanished from Draco's face, which was now hard and grim.

"You know," Harry said lightly, knowing that none of the others would understand the real message passing between them, "it just goes to show that you should always question everything you see your role models doing, and ask why it's being done, and whether it makes sense in context for you to do it too. Don't forget to apply that advice to real life, by the way. And thanks for the slow-moving clustered targets."

Of course, Hariezer gets his comeuppance at the hands of a certain other character later in that same chapter, because he's too busy gloating to follow his own advice.

Spoiler: Harry gets his clocked cleaned

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Harry's mind began calculating, Draco inside the shield, Draco worn out now to some degree, Harry worn out too, Hermione in the woods who-knew-where, Harry and four other Chaotics left...

"You know, General Granger," Harry said out loud, "you really should've waited to attack until after I'd fought General Malfoy. You might've been able to get all the survivors."

From somewhere came a girl's high-pitched laughter.

Harry froze.

That wasn't Hermione.

And that was when the dreadful, eerie, cheerful chant began to rise, coming from all around them.

"Don't be frightened, don't be sad,
We'll only hurt you if you're bad..."

"Granger cheated! " burst out Draco inside the shield. "She woke up her soldiers! Why doesn't Professor Quirrell -"

"Let me guess," Harry said, the sickness already churning in his stomach. He really hated losing. "It was a very easy battle, right? They dropped like flies?"

"Yes," Draco said. "We got them all on the first shot -"

The look of horrified realization spread from Draco to the Chaos Legionnaires.

"No," Harry said, "we didn't."

Camouflaged forms were appearing from among the trees.

"Allies?" Harry said.

"Allies," Draco said.

"Good," said General Granger's voice, and a spiral of green energy blazed out of the woods and shattered Draco's shield to splinters.

General Granger surveyed the battlefield with a definite feeling of satisfaction. She was down to nine Sunshine Soldiers, but that was probably enough to handle the last survivor of the enemy forces, especially when Parvati and Anthony and Ernie were already holding their wands on General Potter, whom she'd ordered taken alive (well, conscious).

It was Bad, she knew, but she'd really really really wanted to gloat.

"There's a trick, isn't there?" said Harry, the strain showing in his voice. "There has to be some trick. You can't just turn into a perfect general. Not on top of everything else. You're not that Slytherin! You don't write creepy poetry! No one's that good at everything! "

General Granger glanced around at her Sunshine Soldiers, and then looked back at Harry. Everyone was probably watching this on the screens outside.

And General Granger said, "I can do anything if I study hard enough."

"Oh now that's just bu-"

"Somnium."

Harry slumped to the ground in mid-sentence.

"SUNSHINE WINS," intoned the huge voice of Professor Quirrell, seeming to come from everywhere and nowhere.

"Niceness has triumphed!" cried General Granger.

"Hooray! " shouted the Sunshine Soldiers. Even the Gryffindor boys said it, and they said it with pride.

"And what's the moral of today's battle?" said General Granger.

"We can do anything if we study hard enough! "

And the survivors of the Sunshine Regiment marched off toward the victory field, singing their marching song as they went:

Don't be frightened, don't be sad,
We'll only hurt you if you're bad,
And send you to a home that's true,
With new friends to watch over you,
Be sure to tell them you were sent
By Granger's Sunshine Regiment!

You don't like it? You think Eliezer wrote a clumsy self-insert? You think the characterization has little to do with the way Rowling wrote the characters? You think Rowling would be absolutely horrified at the idea of young children doing this sort of thing? You think that even on its best day the story is uneven and has long parts that drag?

Well, you can think that. And you'd be absolutely right.

But for scenes like that ? I love it.

Thank you.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[warty goblin]

It's far less annoyong than the summaries of the text, which read like prime material from the verysmart subreddit. I honestly don't know how y'all were able to read the actual thing.

I find it amusing, but then I find Yudkowski, and the particular strain of Bayesianism he seems to advocate for, rather obnoxious on a professional level. Specifically it's the sort of position I mostly see held by people who pay attention to statistics, but are not accountable to producing useful results with actual data, which is to say a lot of dumbass hot air that actual practicing statisticians got out of their system by like 1995.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler

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It has to be believable to Harry. That's it. Harry is utterly flabbergasted by it, but he has no better explanation, no easy source to seek one from, and no particular reason to try. Dumbledore knows the real reason. McGonagall may not know anything more than "Dumbledore said so". Of the few other people who ever find out or deduce that Harry has a Time Turner, none of them are ever given a reason for why.

Not good enough for me. McGonagal is very, very much not a character to do something obviously stupid and dangerous for no reason. TT's have to be applied for to the Ministry, and they're actually very very strict about who they get handed out to.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As a matter of taste I greatly preferred MOR's Ender's game parody. Firstly, because I hate quidditch. It's a game cleverly disguised as a team game but the only thing that's really important is the seeker grabbing the snitch. It's a clear setup for Harry in the original story to be an athletic hero, and it would frankly be boring to watch.

In my school we played this game "basketball". It's a game cleverly disguised as a team game but the only thing that's really important is the one player that can actually throw balls be given every free throw in the game, which meant his team usually won 5-2, or thereabouts. It's a clear setup for the one guy that was into it to be an athletic hero, and it was frankly boring to watch or participate.

Or possibly, you are making major assumptions about the game, then complaining about it. Maybe change your assumptions.

Grey Wolf

[pendell]

In my school we played this game "basketball". It's a game cleverly disguised as a team game but the only thing that's really important is the one player that can actually throw balls be given every free throw in the game, which meant his team usually won 5-2, or thereabouts. It's a clear setup for the one guy that was into it to be an athletic hero, and it was frankly boring to watch or participate.

We had this game in school as well. In fact, I played it. The way we played it bears no resemblance to the way it was played at your school; most of our scores were made with layups, not free throws. They happened, of course, but they were not by any means the major scoring.

Every major team sport is a combined effort; supporting players provide defense or get the ball to people who do the actual scoring. While there are individual heroes , they are meaningless without the rest of the team to back them up. Everybody talks about Michael Jordan and his phenomenal career. Thing is, I lived in Washington when he left Chicago and came to play for us, and we did NOT become a superpowered scoring machine like the Chicago Bulls. We remained a miserable cellar-dweller of a team.

You see, Michael Jordan himself, arguably the best basketball player ever to tie on the sneakers, isn't enough. You need an entire team of people to enable a great player to be the greatest ever.

That's nothing at all like Quidditch, which presumably is why no analog for it in real world sports. We don't have a single thing which can only be pursued by a single player while the rest of the game goes on around them. Imagine a soccer game where you have one additional player chasing a butterfly all over the field who, if s/he catches it, renders the effort of everyone else on the field moot. There's a reason no one has brought a ground-based version of that game to the real world, and that is because it would be stupefyingly boring both to watch and to play.

If you have a different opinion, you are of course welcome to it. Taste in sports is so subjective I don't see there being any possibility of finding an objective , common view of it. For that matter, I've yet to meet a European who had the slightest interest in American-style football , despite it being a national sport and passion here.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Traab]

Bah, we see in the world cup that its not all about the seeker. Krum catches the snitch but his team is so far behind on points that they lose anyways. But yes, it was most likely written that way to simplify writing sports scenes that involve harry as aside from a few random bludger dodges its basically just the competition between him and the other seeker. Honestly, I think it would be relatively easy to write up strategies that basically remove the seeker from play or otherwise negate his contribution. Anything from targeting the other keeper, targeting the chasers, or taking out the seeker giving your side more time to rack up points. The seeker is most deadly in short games before the chasers can build up points and canonically, these games can and do last days sometimes. I would imagine after the 12th hour of game play, the score is such that even tossing in an extra 150 points isnt that huge of a game changer. Even in regular basketball game, there are plenty of blowouts where an extra 15 baskets getting dropped onto one side wouldnt change the outcome.

[GloatingSwine]

Bah, we see in the world cup that its not all about the seeker. Krum catches the snitch but his team is so far behind on points that they lose anyways. But yes, it was most likely written that way to simplify writing sports scenes that involve harry as aside from a few random bludger dodges its basically just the competition between him and the other seeker.

It’s also intended to mirror the impenetrable rules of English public school sports like the Eton wall game.

An important thing to remember about Wizard society is that it’s supposed to be insular, strange, and baffling to outsiders because it’s a pastiche of British class conflict.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We don't have a single thing which can only be pursued by a single player while the rest of the game goes on around them.

American football is nothing except players with their own objectives while the game happens around them. The kicker, who sometimes never actually plays. The escorts, whose job doesn't seem to involve the ball game at all. The Quarterback, who have one job, and everyone else's best option is to take them down as brutally and efficiently as possible.

Your conclusions about quidditch are literally the same as if I watched 13 year olds play American football, and decided that the quarterback was the only important player, and concluded the game is boring.

if s/he catches it, renders the effort of everyone else on the field moot.

And you are back to making unsupported assumptions, drawing conclusions from them that create supposed plot-holes, and you not changing your assumptions.

Read my example about how we played basketball, and see if you can spot the issue there. You giving me a different example didn't somehow make my experience change. My experience is still a better example of the mistaken assumptions you are making. Imagine if all you had ever seen of basketball where the game I described, and try again.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

American football is nothing except players with their own objectives while the game happens around them. The kicker, who sometimes never actually plays. The escorts, whose job doesn't seem to involve the ball game at all. The Quarterback, who have one job, and everyone else's best option is to take them down as brutally and efficiently as possible.

Your conclusions about quidditch are literally the same as if I watched 13 year olds play American football, and decided that the quarterback was the only important player, and concluded the game is boring.


And you are back to making unsupported assumptions, drawing conclusions from them that create supposed plot-holes, and you not changing your assumptions.

Read my example about how we played basketball, and see if you can spot the issue there. You giving me a different example didn't somehow make my experience change. My experience is still a better example of the mistaken assumptions you are making. Imagine if all you had ever seen of basketball where the game I described, and try again.

Grey Wolf

He has a point though. With the occasional exception of the beaters, none of the other players actually do anything to support the Seeker in doing their job, and likewise the seeker does not help anybody else on the team do theirs. The seeker exists entirely independent of the rest of the game except for having to not physically crash into anything. That isn't the case in Basketball or American Football (or non-American Football), where the rest of the team is either directly performing as much as the "big star" players, or are acting specifically to support and enable them.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe baseball is closer? It's one person at a time instead of one person the entire game, but nothing the at-bat team does can support or help the batter, and the pitcher is functioning entirely independent of their team until the ball leaves their hand. The only inter-player cooperation is defensive in relaying the ball to base for tag-outs. Everyone has their highly specialized role and zone of responsibility, but beyond that each person is essentially autonomous.

[SaintRidley]

Maybe baseball is closer? It's one person at a time instead of one person the entire game, but nothing the at-bat team does can support or help the batter, and the pitcher is functioning entirely independent of their team until the ball leaves their hand. The only inter-player cooperation is defensive in relaying the ball to base for tag-outs.

Cricket's probably the closest, what with the whole part where games can last several days or more.

[The Glyphstone]

True. It being British in origin, Quidditch is likely intended as a farcical exaggeration of cricket. There's still no good comparison to the isolated function of the Seeker in any real-world sport I can think of, though.