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Thread: Secrecy

  1. - Top - End - #91
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Secrecy

    I'm pretty sure Darth Ultron views the plot (the one true plot to rule them all) as what he has planned. Unlike the more common idea that the plot is actually what happens.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    For some reason I keep getting this image in my head of the Architect, from the Matrix sequels.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Well, you might not understand, but in a Classic RPG the players only know a vague single sentence about the plot. So the players know something like ''we need to save the town of Highrock from the orcs of Thung", and....that is it. Then, in a classic RPG, the players just play though that plot.
    ..Oh, so you're talking about the start of the game, not how players learn more about what's going on when they play through it?

    See in my experience players will pay attention to what's happening during a given game (or group of connected games) and wind up making decisions you didn't account for, thereby ending up changing what happens because you're a good GM who lets players do things you didn't expect them to do.

    Like say, they may know a historian from a previous adventure who can give them some historic context for this emnity between Highrock and the Orcs of Thung. Or perhaps instead of foolishly toying with the ancient artifact found within the Caves of Thung like you expected, they treat it like a proper HazMat situation and call in a specialist they know. Or the PCs call on their own Orcish allies, the Orcs of Krush, to aid them in finding an equitible arrangement for both parties. Or something.

    Games are not novels - you don't decide what will happen at every stage from the start to the finish. Unless you're just running one shots with new characters every single game the PCs are going to have pasts that they can call on, and even if you only play one-shots, PCs will never do what you expect 100% of the time.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I also find interesting your commentary regarding playing vs GMing style. Care to elaborate on why one is planned / static, vs why the other is spontaneous / dynamic?
    Ah, yes. That. See, when I play a character, I like to have a reason for them to do the things that they do, and have it follow realistically based on what they experience. I make a backstory that reflects the character that I want to play so I can base how I play them off of something "tangible" in the world. As a character in someone else's game, I feel it's important for them to be well grounded in the reality of the game world and not be too dissonant with the ideas and themes expressed in session 0.

    When I'm the GM, the PC's are the star of the show, and my goal is to have the best story emerge from their interaction with the world. Therefore I tend to make decisions about what NPC's and monsters can and will do that align with creating interesting encounters with an appropriate level of tension, then coming up with a reason for that to make sense in the constraints of the world while the PC's are dealing with the hot mess they just got served. It also cuts down on prep time dramatically, which is good for me because I am extremely inefficient with it as it is.

    An example of this is with my recent West Marches game. As it was meant to be (even more of) a oneshot than usual, they were given a hook beforehand that they were all up and coming members of the thieves guild going on one final test mission to a mansion deep in the Man's Bane (and aptly named forest to the south).

    During their travels, they encountered several different things (random encounter tables are the name of the game) and rolled very high on perception each time. One of them was the lair of a boss that was the goal of a different quest on the quest board. This boss was called the Red Reaper, and the attached quest was something about rumors of headless bodies being found at the edge of the woods and a fairy tale that may be true.

    They didn't actually approach any of them, because they knew how dangerous the Man's Bane was both in and out of character, and as such traveled a bit further and settled down for the night. They elected to try and make a safe camp. This consisted of everyone but the dwarf barbarian sleeping in a hastily constructed tree outpost, while he made some barricades and slept in a circle of them. ("I'm not climbing no stinking tree.")

    They chose their watches, and their Elf Druid elected to take the first two as they didn't need to sleep. One encounter roll and two botched stealth checks later he heard the crunching of paws approaching the camp and a twig snap in a tree nearby. The Red Reaper hunts at night, apparently, with a team of Dire Wolves.

    One of the unspoken rules of my West Marches game is problems and enemies get harder to solve the more they are ignored. So, 6 direwolves on a level 2 party, as well as a boss that i never bothered to stat up but I decided had some array blood related and beheading powers. Neat.

    They freaked out a bit, because 6 direwolves is obviously ridiculous for a level 2 party on their own, let alone a weird headless figure they've never seen before, so they did what any appropriately terrified people would do and pull each other up the tree to avoid the wolves, before focusing on the boss up the next tree over.

    Now, everyone had some ranged ability (even the barbarian had javelins) and it occurred to me that I didn't describe my boss as having a ranged weapon and couldn't think of a way to make it happen without being incredibly silly. The entire encounter would be trivialized and be quite boring as they could just ping at the enemies until they retreat. Which would have also been an appropriate move, don't get me wrong, it's just that this was probably going to be the last encounter they'd do this session (we had a small block available) and it's usually best to end with a bang and some loot instead of a whimper.

    So I had the boss jump down and behead a wolf.

    The players cheered as they assumed their enemies would kill each other, until they realized that the wolves were ignoring the Reaper, and a red mist was coming from the bloody stump and clawing its way up the tree. An ability that certainly wasn't planned out, but fit the mold of the boss' description. I didn't plan on him having a dire wolf escort either until the encounter tables were rolled. It was just decided, and an excuse was dropped into the Reaper's backstory as fact.

    They fought bravely, and all but one survived because they made a poor gamble and knew it. But it was a suitably dramatic encounter and a great finisher to a session that involved very little drama to begin with, and now we can run the actual mission with a sense of who their characters are.

    I recognize that ad-libbing boss abilities to mitigate tactical advantage and rebalance encounters isn't well liked in these forums, but it works for me and prevents me from wasting too many hours coming up with them beforehand.

    As such, my method of DMing kinda follows the "make decisions to define the character, then come up with a logical excuse later" paradigm instead of the "plan ahead what and why these actors do what they do."


    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Horrific? Curious that you jump there for character growth. Why is that?
    Oh, that's easy. When I do get to play, I have a tendency to play characters that are either young or naive in worlds where that's dangerous. In the current long running game I'm in, my character has been impaled, killed, tortured, betrayed, dismembered, tortured, and dismembered again in that order. Suffice to say, that leaves a mark or two on a young soul. While I do recognize that character growth and emotional scarring are two different things, that's just the first example that pops into my head.

  5. - Top - End - #95

    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    So, if the PCs decide to "save the town of Highrock from the orcs of Thung", not by (collecting the seven super special secret McGuffins and) fighting the orcs as the plot calls for, but instead by evacuating the town, or starting a week-long forest fire between the town and Thung, or, better yet, both, then have not the players created a plot point / affected the plot?
    Well, the players are not creating anything, they are playing along the plot. And they are ''effecting'' the plot, by playing along the plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    I'm pretty sure Darth Ultron views the plot (the one true plot to rule them all) as what he has planned. Unlike the more common idea that the plot is actually what happens.
    Right, some games just rubber stamp 'plot' on 'absolutely anything that happens in the game'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    See in my experience players will pay attention to what's happening during a given game (or group of connected games) and wind up making decisions you didn't account for, thereby ending up changing what happens because you're a good GM who lets players do things you didn't expect them to do.
    In my experience only poor or bad DMs are ''always surprised" by ''anything the players do".

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Games are not novels - you don't decide what will happen at every stage from the start to the finish. Unless you're just running one shots with new characters every single game the PCs are going to have pasts that they can call on, and even if you only play one-shots, PCs will never do what you expect 100% of the time.
    Well, you might need to check the rulebook for your RPG....but most of them with a GM do have them deciding what happens from start to finish. And while you can't predict what the players will do, that is more your own personal falling then a blanket statement for all people worldwide.

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Secrecy

    OK, so, DU, to you, "plot" is simply the elements of conflict that the GM introduces? And perhaps however the PCs choose to deal with them?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2018-08-21 at 02:45 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #97

    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    OK, so, DU, to you, "plot" is simply the elements of conflict that the GM introduces? And perhaps however the PCs choose to deal with them?
    That is not right the ''elements of conflict" are just..well..spots of conflict, so they are tiny parts of a whole plot. And really the PCs micro actions don't effect the plot much....again, when you toss a pebble in a flowing river it makes a splash and a couple ripples and then fades away.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Secrecy

    That is only how it works if you take away their agency.

    If you take away their agency than the only way they can have agency is by disrupting the game.

    If the only way they have agency is by disrupting he game than you are justified in taking away their agency.

    Congratulations Darth Ultron, you are your own echo chamber.

  9. - Top - End - #99

    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    That is only how it works if you take away their agency.

    If you take away their agency than the only way they can have agency is by disrupting the game.

    If the only way they have agency is by disrupting he game than you are justified in taking away their agency.
    Well, you can't take away something that does not exist...so there is that.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Well, you can't take away something that does not exist...so there is that.
    And people say I'm a tyrant at the table.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I suspect it's because red and green are much more similar than red and penguin.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    That is not right the ''elements of conflict" are just..well..spots of conflict, so they are tiny parts of a whole plot. And really the PCs micro actions don't effect the plot much....again, when you toss a pebble in a flowing river it makes a splash and a couple ripples and then fades away.
    TTRPGs aren't some force of nature. The DM controls the "river," he can let the "pebble" make as much of an impact as he wants.

  12. - Top - End - #102

    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by BreaktheStatue View Post
    TTRPGs aren't some force of nature. The DM controls the "river," he can let the "pebble" make as much of an impact as he wants.
    True, but that is kinda my point.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Well, you can't take away something that does not exist...so there is that.
    I'd be rather interested in getting a real example of how you deal with players who want to do something different than what you've planned, as right now I imagine that your games must go something like this:

    DM: You finally reach the hut of the which you need to talk to. It's a small building with a straw roof.
    Player: I still don't think talking to a witch is a good idea. I say we kill her before she's got a chance to jinx us and problem sorted.
    DM: You keep walking towards the hut.
    Player: You know what? I'm going to light a torch and throw it at the hut's roof.
    DM: A strong wind comes, quenches your torch, and knocks it off course. It falls harmlessly a few yards away.
    Player: I'll use a fireball from my fireball necklace, then.
    DM: Soon after you knock on the door, an old woman opens it. Her eyes--
    Player: I stab her in the face.
    DM: Turns out that today the tarasque decided to go for a morning stroll. It steps on your character, who immediately dies. The door is over there, please shut it after you leave.

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    That is not right the ''elements of conflict" are just..well..spots of conflict, so they are tiny parts of a whole plot. And really the PCs micro actions don't effect the plot much....again, when you toss a pebble in a flowing river it makes a splash and a couple ripples and then fades away.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSandman View Post
    I'd be rather interested in getting a real example of how you deal with players who want to do something different than what you've planned
    So, again, if the plot plot point / element of conflict in the larger plot was "save the town of Highrock from the orcs of Thung", and, instead of (collecting the seven super special secret McGuffins and) fighting the orcs as the plot calls for, the party saved the town, by starting a week-long forest fire between the town and Thung, and evacuating to Gondor in the interim, why do you consider this a pebble?

    Understand, I ask in small part because you claim to be a huge fan of railroading. I can see many possible horrible answers - many of them involving railroading - and many possible good answers to the question. Let alone the many answers that i wouldn't consider merely ripples, that perhaps we are calibrated to describe differently.

    So, would you consider this course of action jumping the rails? Ripples? Disruptive players? But, most of all, why? What happens to the rest of the plot if Thung isn't dead, and, in fact, now occupies the village? Where do you go from there with the plot once one element of conflict is resolved in an unconventional fashion?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2018-08-22 at 07:20 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Just replying to the original poster.

    I don’t think that the GM should be letting slip details about your character if you are trying to keep them secret. The GM agreed you could play the character they should leave you to play it.

    I do want to offer some perspective tho. Say two characters came along with the same skill set as your character. One acted perfectly normally and didn’t hide everything away and the other was your character and acted like they act.

    Why would anyone choose your character to join the group over the other ?
    Then think do other people in the game world have your character skill set or close to it ?

    I am not saying THE OP is doing anything wrong just offering perspective. I have had many an argument at my table of weird character stuff and the question asked “Why am I even grouping with character X”
    Its weird you are grouped together because you are Player Characters but that does sometimes strain credibility.
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  16. - Top - End - #106

    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSandman View Post
    I'd be rather interested in getting a real example of how you deal with players who want to do something different than what you've planned, as right now I imagine that your games must go something like this:
    Oh, well, I would never ''plan" any "one" event or action or encounter, but more just ''plan" to ''have something happen", but it does not matter what that ''something" is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    So, again, if the plot plot point / element of conflict in the larger plot was "save the town of Highrock from the orcs of Thung", and, instead of (collecting the seven super special secret McGuffins and) fighting the orcs as the plot calls for, the party saved the town, by starting a week-long forest fire between the town and Thung, and evacuating to Gondor in the interim, why do you consider this a pebble?
    Well, I would not all the two above actions a ''pebble", as they (might) end/solve/take care of the plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Understand, I ask in small part because you claim to be a huge fan of railroading. I can see many possible horrible answers - many of them involving railroading - and many possible good answers to the question. Let alone the many answers that i wouldn't consider merely ripples, that perhaps we are calibrated to describe differently.
    Well, admittedly everyone things Railroading is One Thing as they don't like it. If the plot is to save the town, it does not matter ''how'' the town is saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    So, would you consider this course of action jumping the rails? Ripples? Disruptive players? But, most of all, why? What happens to the rest of the plot if Thung isn't dead, and, in fact, now occupies the village? Where do you go from there with the plot once one element of conflict is resolved in an unconventional fashion?
    Well, it would not even get close to a ''unconventional" blip on my radar.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Oh, well, I would never ''plan" any "one" event or action or encounter, but more just ''plan" to ''have something happen", but it does not matter what that ''something" is.

    Well, I would not all the two above actions a ''pebble", as they (might) end/solve/take care of the plot.

    Well, admittedly everyone things Railroading is One Thing as they don't like it. If the plot is to save the town, it does not matter ''how'' the town is saved.

    Well, it would not even get close to a ''unconventional" blip on my radar.
    So, am I right in understanding that you don't plan out everything that needs to happen in an adventure, but rather you give your players a challenge/plot/something, and have the world react to their actions?
    Last edited by MrSandman; 2018-08-22 at 03:10 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #108

    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSandman View Post
    So, am I right in understanding that you don't plan out everything that needs to happen in an adventure, but rather you give your players a challenge/plot/something, and have the world react to their actions?
    Well, no. I run set and planned out Adventures.

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Well, I would not all the two above actions a ''pebble", as they (might) end/solve/take care of the plot.

    Well, admittedly everyone things Railroading is One Thing as they don't like it. If the plot is to save the town, it does not matter ''how'' the town is saved.
    Is failing to save the town an option?

    OK, so, the PCs can successfully make more than a ripple?

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Imp

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Erit View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Well, you can't take away something that does not exist...so there is that.
    And people say I'm a tyrant at the table.
    This had me laugh hard enough to startle my cat and make him fall off the edge of the bed he was chilling on. So I laughed harder. Which caused me to almost knock my drink over my keyboard. Careful with your remarks, sir! They cause accidents!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Well, no. I run set and planned out Adventures.
    Heaven forbid the players want to get off these railroad tracks. Even the smallest secret, the tiniest 'none of the above' choice could ruin the whole preplanned story - no sorry, 'plot'. It does explain the level of control freak that's emanating from all these posts, if it's all 'planned out'.

    I shouldn't have read this before going to bed. I'm going to have nightmares about this kind of playstyle... *shudders*
    Just remember... if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelynn View Post
    This had me laugh hard enough to startle my cat and make him fall off the edge of the bed he was chilling on. So I laughed harder. Which caused me to almost knock my drink over my keyboard. Careful with your remarks, sir! They cause accidents!
    Yes, well... I am LE. Only slightly more L and slightly less E than Fel, by my estimates. We'll have to rectify this... accident-prone-ness post-haste.
    Last edited by Erit; 2018-08-22 at 07:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I suspect it's because red and green are much more similar than red and penguin.

  22. - Top - End - #112

    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Is failing to save the town an option?

    OK, so, the PCs can successfully make more than a ripple?
    Well, I'm not sure failing counts as a option ever. The players can make more then a ripple with some sort of planned action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelynn View Post
    Heaven forbid the players want to get off these railroad tracks. Even the smallest secret, the tiniest 'none of the above' choice could ruin the whole preplanned story - no sorry, 'plot'. It does explain the level of control freak that's emanating from all these posts, if it's all 'planned out'.

    I shouldn't have read this before going to bed. I'm going to have nightmares about this kind of playstyle... *shudders*
    Players are more then free to leave the game and go find a random mess of a game if that is what they want. And if players really want to have a ''secret game", they are free to go do that too.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    Well, I'm not sure failing counts as a option ever. The players can make more then a ripple with some sort of planned action.
    Just running this by you, even though I already know the answer.

    Say you have an adventure where the players are given the task of defending the village from a raid of goblins. Do you have a plan set for them in advance that they should follow? Or do they need to plan the defense?

    Say that the fight starts, and you've made the entire thing to be reasonable challenging given what you know they have in their reserves. But if they don't use the wand of fireballs you provided, they might have a tougher time, but you account for this. How do you account for this? Do you have an outcome where they win anyway or will you just let the dice fall?

    Say they do not manage to hold the lines and forgot about the wand you gave them. One of them orders a retreat. You had planned a pincer attack by the goblins in anticipation of this earlier. Is the only outcome death at this point?

    Say they now run into the ambush, get surrounded and finally, with all the villagers dead and some of the party members dead, they remember the fireball wand and use it, easily clearing out the goblins, after they'd effectively failed. Did you account for this? Is this a failure or a success? What do you do to prevent this from happening ever in your games?

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Cealocanth's Avatar

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    Default Re: Secrecy

    I have found that keeping player secrets in character descriptions is actually pretty hard for me. If your GM is not doing this intentionally, I understand where he is coming from. It is so easy to mention how your enigmatic figure stands with a 'cloaked, slender form' or 'looks at you with his glowing red eyes', details you think would be just meaningless and contribute to the enigma of the character, but instead piss the player off because it's a description at all.

    If your GM is up for suggestions, I recommend covering up details about your character with a more easily describable lie. It's hard to describe something as indescribable, but it is easy to repeatedly describe something as 'terribly mysterious' even when that detail of them would be obvious. Stuff like:

    "Enigmo stands like an enigmatic shadowy figure over the party. In this lighting, they are a sillhouette against the moon, making it difficult to pick out specific details."

    "Enigmo stumbles into the trap. The swinging axe blade seems to cut his mysterious coat, but any revealing parts of the character are coincidentally hidden behind the rush of the blade."

    "Enigmo appraoches the duke and begins to converse with him. The duke's guard, wary of any shenanigans, stands directly between the party and Enigmo."

    etc.
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  25. - Top - End - #115

    Default Re: Secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordaedil View Post
    Say you have an adventure where the players are given the task of defending the village from a raid of goblins. Do you have a plan set for them in advance that they should follow? Or do they need to plan the defense?
    In general I have at least three plans, maybe five or more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordaedil View Post
    Say that the fight starts, and you've made the entire thing to be reasonable challenging given what you know they have in their reserves. But if they don't use the wand of fireballs you provided, they might have a tougher time, but you account for this. How do you account for this? Do you have an outcome where they win anyway or will you just let the dice fall?
    As always, the dice will fall where they may.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordaedil View Post
    Say they do not manage to hold the lines and forgot about the wand you gave them. One of them orders a retreat. You had planned a pincer attack by the goblins in anticipation of this earlier. Is the only outcome death at this point?
    Most likely. I'm a Hard Fun Killer ''let dice will fall where they may" type DM. If the PCs do anything unwise there is a big threat of loss or character death.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mordaedil View Post
    Say they now run into the ambush, get surrounded and finally, with all the villagers dead and some of the party members dead, they remember the fireball wand and use it, easily clearing out the goblins, after they'd effectively failed. Did you account for this? Is this a failure or a success? What do you do to prevent this from happening ever in your games?
    Pyrrhic Victory for sure. I don't do anything to prevent this, sounds like a good game to me.

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