The Nerdy Necromancer

[Alfrohawk]

I guess I just want an assessment of what you guys think of my projected character build. For the personality, he is a very "well, actually..." obnoxious, sort of know-it-all character. He is also the party face, as the only non-stark raving lunatic. As for the projected build:

Human Archivist 5/Dread Necromancer 4/ Paragnostic Apostle(DN +1 CL)/True Necromancer 10.

As far as I can tell I'll be able to cast as a 13th level Archivist and Dread Necro, Rebuke at 15th level, and have an uncomfortably large undead pool.

I'm the closest thing to an optimizer in the party. I'm open to suggestions and would love to hear a healthy debate on it. Thanks in advance everyone!

[sleepyphoenixx]

There is no polite way to say this, so i'll just be blunt: True Necromancer is trash.
The idea sounds cool at first glance but it's a trap made of lies and pain and probably one of the worst prestige classes ever designed.

Trying to play this build will stop being fun around level 7 and never recover since you'll actually get weaker relative to your enemies as your level gets higher.
You'll be stuck with low level spells, your DCs will suck because of that and MAD, your CL will be too low to penetrate SR, your rebuke will be too weak to affect anything worth commanding and your undead pool will be filled with weak-ass cannon fodder that's probably not worth the spell slots and gold you spent animating it.

If you want to be a necromancer a Cleric does just fine -great even. A Wizard does just fine. A Dread Necromancer does fine too.
A True Necromancer on the other hand is unbelievably painful in all but the most low-op of games. Because of the casting loss you'll be so far behind that you may as well not bother casting spells at all after you actually enter the PrC. You'll effectively be a character 5 levels behind in terms of your offense.
It not only makes you a worse spellcaster than any of the above, it'll also make you worse at necromancy than them - because most of necromancy is spells, which you'll get 4-5 levels after they would've been effective.

[Deophaun]

My question is how does his obnoxiousness play with his necromancy? You are making your character MAD and sacrificing spell levels and rebuking power for that bit of character. If you are the closest thing to an optimizer your group has, that power loss might not be a big deal (or maybe it's a huge deal because you're the one who typically keeps your party alive; don't know the group dynamics to say). But yeah, from a mechanical standpoint, it's terrible. So what are you doing on the character end that makes this compelling for you?

[Alfrohawk]

My goodness, that is a lot of hatred at the TN. Thankfully, I'm not married to the build. I am however 4 levels into the Archivist. Also considering from here going into Dread Necro 1(for the rebuke)/Paragnostic Apostle 5/Loremaster 5/ and finish out with Archivist. Would that be a more desirable build? I am currently the only full caster the party has, we also have a Ranger but I've seen what they're good at.

The character concept is supposed to be similar to Johannes Cabal. A necromancer but not really for the hordes of undead, just experiments until he masters true resurrection.

[Deophaun]

The rebuke only does something for you if you're looking to use it to fuel things like DMM simply because your turning level is going to be so far behind. There's no point in advancing it. Your earlier build actually does better for you at that than you think, potentially getting you back up to a turning level of 19, but at least 17, which is meh, but you can work with it with items (turning resistance just gets more common the higher you go).

Don't get me wrong: your character is entirely playable; you don't need level 8s or 9s to be a solid tier 3 character. In fact, my favorite PrC, the Chameleon, can make a nasty little gish with only 6s. But TN is anti-optimization. Beyond everything else, there is no good class pairing for divine/arcane rebuking necromancy that is not MAD. Even Favored Soul/Dread Necro still needs Wisdom to some extent. Archivist/Wizard, meanwhile, doesn't get you a turning pool.

The build probably would have worked better as a dwarven cleric, which would have let you take Ancestral Knowledge so you could be your know-it-all. Then you worship a god of knowledge and keep lore of the gods up on you for a +10 to all those checks. Or heck, not optimal but a Dread Necromancer with a level of Marshal for the minor motivate intelligence aura (as it works on all your allies, not just you, that would work really well fluffed as you saying "well, actually" when someone adds your Cha modifier to their Knowledge roll). But that doesn't help you as you're stuck with archivist.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Rebuke isn't worth your time unless you can advance it by class and expend resources on making it competitive.

If you want to try something interesting, maybe eldritch disciple and pick up combine turning from the ghostwalk web enhancement (obscure, I know), heighten turning from libris mortis, and empower turning from complete divine. Get some always ready abilities including animate dead in the form of the dead walk invocation and a rebuke that's actually usable.

[Maat Mons]

Okay, well Archivist versus Cloistered Cleric can be a tough decision for this type of character. But, instead of trying to graft parts of one onto the other, why not just pick one and play to its strengths?

[Alfrohawk]

The necromancy is sort of a side gig. The original idea was to be a pretentious nerd who just so happens to have some dead friends. I kind spiralled into a full blown necro build idea when I thought about opening a small business for odd jobs with a skeleton work force. Then I thought about franchising and using wights as managers, and then delegating different regions to commanded vampires and well... you get the idea.

[Alfrohawk]

I think I'm just gonna go Archivist until I qualify for Paragnostic Apostle 5 then Loremaster 5 then finish Archivist out to CL 20 if we go that far.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think I'm just gonna go Archivist until I qualify for Paragnostic Apostle 5 then Loremaster 5 then finish Archivist out to CL 20 if we go that far.

That's a reasonable build.
You don't actually need to specialize into necromancy if all you want is a few skeletons. Slap down a desecrate, cast Animate Dead, done.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Death Master from the Dragon Compendium?
That class gets Rebuke Undead, Int-based spellcasting, spellbook, Knowledge (arcana, religion, the planes)...
From the 5th level, Undead creatures must make a Will save to attack him at all!
Also, Animate Dead as a 2nd-level spell

[Alfrohawk]

How about the Death Master from the Dragon Compendium?
That class gets Rebuke Undead, Int-based spellcasting, spellbook, Knowledge (arcana, religion, the planes)...
From the 5th level, Undead creatures must make a Will save to attack him at all!
Also, Animate Dead as a 2nd-level spell

That sounds like an interesting class. Maybe if I ever plan to go full necro. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!

[Mordaedil]

I would also like to say that listening to the thread in regards to true necromancer being trash is only true in so far as maintaining the full power level of the casters, kinda ties into how mystic theurges are looked down upon because they are quite a few spell levels behind the pure casters and still lack the action economy to make the most use of your dual spellcasting nature.

This could actually balance you out if your other party members aren't tier 1 classes, so keep that in mind before dismissing it as trash.

[Alfrohawk]

The rest of the party make up is a strongheart halfling barbarian, a dwarf ranger, and a human homebrew rogue type with a x times per day blink strike kinda thing. Essentially, as long as I keep everyone upright, and handle the knowledge checks, I can do no wrong. However, after consideration, the undead minions are more of a "oh I got another zombie while trying to cure death. Oh well, go get a big stick and dont let me get hit."

[sleepyphoenixx]

I would also like to say that listening to the thread in regards to true necromancer being trash is only true in so far as maintaining the full power level of the casters, kinda ties into how mystic theurges are looked down upon because they are quite a few spell levels behind the pure casters and still lack the action economy to make the most use of your dual spellcasting nature.

This could actually balance you out if your other party members aren't tier 1 classes, so keep that in mind before dismissing it as trash.

The difference between Mystic Theurges and True Necromancers is that Mystic Theurges are not optimal but still very playable in games that aren't high-op.
You're basically a level behind a sorcerer, which is okay because sorcerers are on the strong side and you get more variety to somewhat make up for it.

True Necromancers on the other hand are 4 levels behind a sorcerer. And because they lose so many caster levels and are MAD you actually end up with less spells than a single-class caster for most of your career, and they're lower level too on top of it. Short version? Their spellcasting sucks hard and unlike half-casters like the bard they get nothing to make up for it.
They fail against CR-appropriate enemies straight from the MM. That's pretty much the definition of "too weak" no matter your optimization level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, call me crazy but can't you still make 9ths on TN if you use precocious apprentice (assume it works for the sake of argument here) to early entry the arcane side?

Wiz 1/ Clr 5/ TN 14 Makes casting as a 17th level cleric and a 13th level wizard. That's really not terrible.

The common knowledge of TN suckitude seems to be based on a 3/3 split at the leadup that leads to 15/15 at the end which is, indeed, awful.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[Alfrohawk]

Having recently found the Death Master, and already knowing of the Dread Necro, I thought of a funny little build today that I wouldn't mind getting some input on.
Essentially some combo of Death Master, Dread Necro into Ultimate Magus. Is this a thing that anyone has seen/heard of/run before? It seems interesting at the least.

[Mordaedil]

The difference between Mystic Theurges and True Necromancers is that Mystic Theurges are not optimal but still very playable in games that aren't high-op.
You're basically a level behind a sorcerer, which is okay because sorcerers are on the strong side and you get more variety to somewhat make up for it.

True Necromancers on the other hand are 4 levels behind a sorcerer. And because they lose so many caster levels and are MAD you actually end up with less spells than a single-class caster for most of your career, and they're lower level too on top of it. Short version? Their spellcasting sucks hard and unlike half-casters like the bard they get nothing to make up for it.
They fail against CR-appropriate enemies straight from the MM. That's pretty much the definition of "too weak" no matter your optimization level.

I kinda forget that the class doesn't offer full progression on both classes. We house-ruled that in, but it kinda made MT useless in the process, well, at least in terms of class benefits.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So, call me crazy but can't you still make 9ths on TN if you use precocious apprentice (assume it works for the sake of argument here) to early entry the arcane side?

Wiz 1/ Clr 5/ TN 14 Makes casting as a 17th level cleric and a 13th level wizard. That's really not terrible.

The common knowledge of TN suckitude seems to be based on a 3/3 split at the leadup that leads to 15/15 at the end which is, indeed, awful.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

You're still 2 levels behind on cleric casting and your wizard casting is practically non-existent (or may as well be) for most of your career.
It's not so bad at level 20 but most games don't start there.
With early entry it's at least somewhat playable, but you're essentially getting all the drawbacks of a non early entry theurge and few of the benefits.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're still 2 levels behind on cleric casting and your wizard casting is practically non-existent (or may as well be) for most of your career.
It's not so bad at level 20 but most games don't start there.
With early entry it's at least somewhat playable, but you're essentially getting all the drawbacks of a non early entry theurge and few of the benefits.

You're one level behind on qualifying, two behind on the first level of the class, and fall a third level behind at TN6 (that's ECL 5, 6, and 12 or 6, 7, and 13 on most PC races). That's really not any worse than most gish builds except the supplemental element is arcane casting instead of melee prowess. It's not as good as sticking to one of the big 6 through all 20 levels but nothing else is either. I'd certainly peg it as at least adequate in power; certainly the equal of any T2 caster if you select your spells well.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You're one level behind on qualifying, two behind on the first level of the class, and fall a third level behind at TN6 (that's ECL 5, 6, and 12 or 6, 7, and 13 on most PC races). That's really not any worse than most gish builds except the supplemental element is arcane casting instead of melee prowess. It's not as good as sticking to one of the big 6 through all 20 levels but nothing else is either. I'd certainly peg it as at least adequate in power; certainly the equal of any T2 caster if you select your spells well.

Yeah, it's playable, but the difference to other builds that sacrifice casting is that you're not really getting anything out of it for most of your career.
You can certainly contribute as a cleric 2 levels behind, but what you're sacrificing those levels for doesn't really offer much until very late in your build.
Your arcane casting will be too weak to matter until about level 15. You're throwing away a lot of power for a few gimmicks.

It's better than a normal True Necro, but that's not exactly saying much. Even with early entry you're still behind a normal theurge build.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So when you say face, you really mean "person who does the talking because he doesn't say crazy things" right? If you're going for a socially awkward know-it-all, I'd recommend leaning into Necromancy heavily. Being a social reject even in the wizarding community could push one towards the necromancers for friendship as they are generally depicted as the black sheep school.

Add a fear of germs and an aversion to being touched. Prefer skeletons over people because they're more sanitary with their impeccably bleached bones. Have the character wear gloves or keep his hands at his sides. Create an intelligent minion to do the talking for you, it's so tedious talking to plebs anyway.

[Alfrohawk]

Oh he's not socially awkward. He is very aware of his intelligence, and its benefit to the party. He just isn't a likeable character. The animated corpses are just a happy by product of his final goal of true resurrection through his own power. Conversing with his party members is the most dumbed down he has to get.