Trying to Reintroduce Old School Multiclassing- Try to Break It for Me!

[Waterdeep Merch]

EDIT 9:46 8/17- Changed several things based on feedback.

I'm planning a very large campaign either by the end of this year or the beginning of next that is supposed to evoke a very old school AD&D/2e feel. One little detail I'd like to add is old school multiclassing.

For those of you too young to have experienced it, multiclassing used to be broken up into two different forms- dual-classing, which was mostly human-only, and multiclassing, which was everyone else. Dual-classing is kind of like taking a break from your main class to practice a new one for a while, eventually netting you the powers of both. Multiclassing let you combine features of multiple classes at the same time at the cost of much slower XP growth.

While I want that old school feel, I'd like to clean up the monstrous math that used to go into all this, make it a bit more intuitive, and not supersede or remove modern multiclassing. For the purposes of this system, I'm going to call the modern 5e multiclassing 'mix-classing'.


Mix-Class

Available to anyone, this functions exactly as per the multiclassing rules present in the PHB. You must meet prerequisites as usual.

Dual-Class

Available to non-variant humans, half-elves, and half-orcs only. You cannot have had any previous mix-classing before you dual-class. After level 5, upon reaching a new level, you may pick a new class to dual-class into; provided that you have a minimum of 15 in the requisite ability scores that would be required for mix-classing for your previous class and a minimum of 17 for the new class. You retain your HP, spell slots, and proficiencies (including any that would be gained by your last level up), but lose all of your other previous class features. In their place, you gain all of the class features of your new class, but only the proficiencies you would have gained had you mix-classed into them, as per the PHB.

You gain levels again as though you were a new character working up from level 1, but you do not gain more HP. You only gain a new Ability Score Improvement if you did not earn one from your previous class at the same level. If you had spell slots from your previous class, you only gain new spell slots if your second class would gain more at that same level- eg, a level 4 paladin that becomes a dual-classed level 1 sorcerer would have four 1st level spells and 2 second level spells thanks to replacing one of their half-casting levels with a full-casting levels for determining spell slots, but a wizard 9 who became a dual-classed level 6 cleric would still have the same spell slots as a 9th level wizard. If you are a Warlock alongside another spellcasting class, you either get the Pact Magic benefits for that level or the spell slots for that level, not both. If this confuses you, consult the PHB chart for multiclass spell slots, or the DM who crafted these insane byzantine rules.

Once you reach the same level in your second class as your first, you regain all of the class features of your former class. Further levels can only apply to your secondary class, and you can no longer take levels in your former class. You may not mix-class if you have dual-classed.

EDITS- Removed the ability to dual-class more than once. It's way too exploitable. Probably why it was never allowed in the old days either.
Added a level requirement, and heightened the ability score requirements. Now it's much more of a commitment and less functional for dipping. I figure players should use mix-classing if they want Dippin' Dots.
Also reversed switching classes after you reach the 'final' dual classing level, and removed the ability to mix-class afterwards. You dual-class and have two classes, or you mix-class. I think that removes a lot of abusive potential.

Multi-Class

Available to any except for humans (variant or otherwise), half-elves, or half-orcs. Only available at level 1. If you choose to multi-class, you may not mix-class.

You may choose up to three classes. You begin the game with the features of all of them, with the following restrictions- you only get one save amongst those available to your classes that is Dexterity, Constitution, or Wisdom, one additional save amongst those available that is Strength, Intelligence, or Charisma, you only gain health and hit dice from the highest of your classes, you gain two skill proficiencies from any available to the classes you have selected, you only gain weapon, armor, and tool proficiencies that are common to all of your classes, and you earn any additional proficiencies as though you had mix-classed into each of your classes, as detailed in the PHB.

The Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Bladesinger, Arcane Domain, and Hexblade subclasses are not allowed for multiclassing. You can only earn one Ability Score Improvement per level. Your spell slots, if any, are equal to the best progression amongst your classes. If you are part Warlock and part another spellcasting class, you must choose to either earn pact magic or spell slots, and cannot have both. You may cast any spells gained through multiclassing through pact magic or spell slots regardless of whether they were warlock spells or not.

A multi-class character requires 100% additional experience to reach a new level for every class they have beyond the first. So a multi-class fighter/wizard would require 600 XP to reach level 2, while a cleric/rogue/bard would require 900 XP.

EDIT- Reversed my decision on subclasses and just put a kibosh on the ones I'm most worried about. Increased the XP requirements, capped the maximum allotted classes at 3. I probably DO need to sit down and list out allowed classes by race, but I need to be home with my books for that. For now, though, let's say I don't have them. Lets me see where the problems are better.

So, that's what I'm thinking. I doubt I'll see too many players willing to bite given the deliberately confusing extra rules, but I do want to make sure that I'm not allowing some sort of insane loophole. I want to throw my grognards a bone, not a whole cow.

Using this setup, try to make something absolutely busted. Especially for low levels, but any build that shows fundamental flaws would be appreciated.

[MagneticKitty]

Just be careful to make sure this is what your players want. That's all I'll say as I've never liked that system. As such I can't speak to the balance of it without being negative. So I will be good. Good luck!

[krugaan]

So, let me get this straight.

Multiclassed characters level all classes equally, but without specialties, and a hefty penalty to xp?

And *dual-classed* characters ... seem pointless from first reading. Makes dipping extremely useless, and provides no benefit that I can see, unless im missing something?

[Vorpalchicken]

Possibly a 5 class multiclass could be a little nuts. Do you have old school level caps? Will a multiclass character eventually be 20/20/20?

Clerics without a domain might be strange too. Also traditionally it was only half elves and half orcs that could mix in cleric levels into multiclass and now they are they are prohibited (Well prohibited from all multiclassing)

Not allowing each class's armour and weapon proficiencies doesn't seem traditional either. Although I understand- for balance purposes.

I think you may have a bunch of people trying this at low levels (assuming you start at 1st level) and then realizing 5e does it better.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Just be careful to make sure this is what your players want. That's all I'll say as I've never liked that system. As such I can't speak to the balance of it without being negative. So I will be good. Good luck!

Thanks, and I completely understand. This is appealing directly to a player base that happens to enjoy convoluted systems, purpose-built for a very old school adventure (hyper lethal, stark resource management, etc).

So, let me get this straight.

Multiclassed characters level all classes equally, but without specialties, and a hefty penalty to xp?

That's correct. I suspect this is going to be the more popular variant between the two by far, assuming I can balance this enough to allow it.

And *dual-classed* characters ... seem pointless from first reading. Makes dipping extremely useless, and provides no benefit that I can see, unless im missing something?

It's convoluted (just like the original rules for it), but the benefit comes down to XP and advancement. Say you go fighter 5, then go wizard 5. By the time you're there, you've reached 13,000 XP, and will be behind by 6,500 XP compared to a straight class or mix class anything for the rest of the game. In exchange, you have all of the perks of a level 5 fighter and a level 5 wizard, something that would ordinarily only be possible by level 10, at 64,000 XP. Compared to that, 6,500 XP is a steal. But it requires jumping through some hoops and spending some time fairly weak in trade.

Possibly a 5 class multiclass could be a little nuts. Do you have old school level caps? Will a multiclass character eventually be 20/20/20?

I think I'll probably have to institute them, and likely on a class-by-class basis as it used to be done. I'm dreading the work, but first I'd like to see where the biggest offenders are. I don't doubt that it's going to be full casters.

Clerics without a domain might be strange too. Also traditionally it was only half elves and half orcs that could mix in cleric levels into multiclass and now they are they are prohibited (Well prohibited from all multiclassing)

Not allowing each class's armour and weapon proficiencies doesn't seem traditional either. Although I understand- for balance purposes.

It's the biggest place I made changes from the old system, I feel. I took a lot of inspiration from 4e hybrid classes, as it was essentially a better done 2e multiclass. I figured shutting down subclasses was the easiest way to stop abusive combos, especially in regards to the hexblade but also including the eldritch knight and arcane trickster. Defining which multiclasses are allowed, as in days of yore, might be less exciting but it would be a whole lot easier to balance. I might try it, especially if things get messy otherwise.

I think you may have a bunch of people trying this at low levels (assuming you start at 1st level) and then realizing 5e does it better.

I don't disagree. I believe I have two players I'm catering directly to, and the other three are probably going to either straight class or use the basic system (with perhaps a dalliance into trying one, since I'm having them all build a stable of characters). For their sake, I want to make sure that the players I'm building this for aren't going to have the ability to overshadow them.

Thanks for all the responses!

[Desteplo]

Here you go. Similar and more

https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/...ition-options/

[Waterdeep Merch]

Here you go. Similar and more

https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/...ition-options/

This is a really cool page in general.

I have some reservations about parts of their multiclass method (tracking spell slots separately, no restrictions on saving throws, too many skill proficiencies), but others look like pretty reasonable solutions I haven't been using (I might not need the subclass restriction if XP splits as in the old way, hit dice average makes a lot of sense, I really should define specific combos by race). I wonder if anyone's tried using it.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian level 2 Multi-Class would be pretty strong. feel like race hardly matters here.


Reckless Attack for adv.
Rage bonus
two weapon fighting
short swords
Action Surge
Sneak attack
Second wind
Cunning action


Thats alot for 2 levels. You could Action surge and do... 4d6+ 15 which is 29 average. and then you're doing 3d6+10 every turn afterwords. well assuming this is the turn after you start the rage so you can twf as bonus action. OH and you have adv.

[krugaan]

Sorguedink (sorc / rogue / monk / paladin)

- check out that nova damage!
- oh yeah, and my defenses are insane too.
- and I'm a full caster.

[Hecuba]

On the dual-class side, you are profoundly reducing the cost of picking up front-loaded options: in practice, you are effectively saying "take a 1000 xp penalty for anylevel 2 feature." There are a lot of level 2 features good enough to take an actual level cap hit for- much less a early xp hit. You're effectively making an early level dip very cheap.

• Barb 2 - reckless attack
• Fighter 2 - Action surge
• Rogue 2 - Cunning Action
• Wizard 2 - Portent, blade song, arcane ward, hypnotic gaze, sculpt spell, or tactical wit
• Bard 2 - Jack of all trades
• Paladin 2 - Divine Smite
• Cleric 2 - channel Divinity of your choice
• Druid 2 - wild shape, spirit totem

Sorcerer and Warlock would want to go up to a whopping 3 for metamagic and a pact boon respectively, and some other combinations would do the same for level 3 subclass benefits.

By charging the Xp of levels 1 and 2 for this instead of levels 3 and 4 (and having it not count for the level cap), you're making it a profoundly more lucrative option than normal multiclassing for humans and half-humans. That might not be a bad thing, but you should consider whether you're really willing to have out Portent, Divine Smite, or Cunning Action to any character willing to cough up 1200xp for 3rd level instead of 900.

Sorguedink (sorc / rogue / monk / paladin)

- check out that nova damage!
- oh yeah, and my defenses are insane too.
- and I'm a full caster.

Swap the monk for Warlock (or just add it in) and you can add eldrich smite to your Divine Smite-Sneak attack-Searing Smite Nova. You'll need to convert all of your lower level spell slots via sorcery points, but you could pump out 12d8+6d6+2*Weapon Damage in a turn if you hit on both attacks at level 5. That's an average of around 85 (pegging double weapon damage at 10). If you're more conservative with your spell slots you could use Thunderous Smite and use 2nd level slots for Divine Smite and Eldrich Smite for 9d8+5d6+2*Weapon Damage for an average of 68. Max will be 142 and 112 respectively.

A normally acpdvanced character would be about level 7 there, and that's still some fairly significant nova for that stage. Advancing normally, you would not be able to stack these elements until level 10.

[Thrudd]

It might be salient to point out that AD&D didn't have unrestricted mixing of classes for multiclass characters. There were at most three classes, and there were a finite number of combos allowed, with each race restricted in its classes. Certain classes, as human only, would never be a part of a multi class.
To replicate the feel of AD&D in 5e, without creating similar race restrictions, you would want to create a number of allowed multi class combos. I would think most should be two classes, with maybe only one or two three class combos. You should also pick what subclasses are allowed in each combo, precisely in order to ensure nothing is too OP with crazy combos (in addition to capping levels). Combos can be designed both for balance and for theme and appropriateness to the setting. Some subclasses are basically multi-class combos already- eldritch knight and arcane trickster for instance. Those are probably closed to multi with another wizard class, but you could combo eldritch knight with thief, or arcane trickster with champion, for example, to give a version of the AD&D fighter/thief/magic-user.

Dual classing doesn't need to be restricted in combos, but it should work the same as in AD&D- you can never gain more levels in the original class, and may only change classes once in your career.

[AvvyR]

I agree with Hecuba that Dual Classing makes the tax for dipping negligible. Nearly everyone can benefit from a level of fighter at next to no cost. Half-Elves are already an excellent race without being able to effortlessly be hexblades. Expect any players of those races to have some combination of Action Surge, Smites, and/or Cunning Action.

On the other hand, the low dip cost makes cool concepts that you probably wouldn't normally bother with much more palatable. A rogue who dual classes two Druid now has the ability to transform himself into a mouse, or be a literal cat burglar. A paladin can become an even more devoted servant of their deity by dual classing a couple cleric and getting another Channel Divinity option and some domain features.

Multi-Classing seems like it can go either way. While you'll generally be far more powerful at low levels, as you gain XP and fall further and further behind in levels (And therefore ASI's, spell slots, spells known, proficiency bonus, and HP), it starts to lose its luster. Mortis' 2 FighteRogBarian is an unstoppable killing machine at 600 XP when the rest of his single classed party is level 2 also. He'll be less happy when they're at 15 and he's at 10.

That said, a Fighter/Rogue gets 8 ASI's at 19 (457,500 XP. After the rest of the party hit 20, started a new campaign, and are already at Lv12) which I find pretty awesome.

[Tanarii]

Put the original ability score restrictions in place for dual classing? 15 in the class you're leaving and 17 in the one you're entering.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Thanks for all the advice! I just updated things based on feedback, as well as talked it over with my players. I was pretty shocked to find two of the newer players excited to experiment with the older rules. I figured they'd be driven off by the complexity. Now I suppose I have to deliver.

[krugaan]

Multi-Classing seems like it can go either way. While you'll generally be far more powerful at low levels, as you gain XP and fall further and further behind in levels (And therefore ASI's, spell slots, spells known, proficiency bonus, and HP), it starts to lose its luster. Mortis' 2 FighteRogBarian is an unstoppable killing machine at 600 XP when the rest of his single classed party is level 2 also. He'll be less happy when they're at 15 and he's at 10.

This, i think. Bounded accuracy is going to make his life very painful in the mid tier and atrocious in the end game.

I think the xp penalty for multi classing needs to be somewhat less to make this viable at all, say 20-25%. 50% per class is extremely hefty.

[Hecuba]

This, i think. Bounded accuracy is going to make his life very painful in the mid tier and atrocious in the end game.

I think the xp penalty for multi classing needs to be somewhat less to make this viable at all, say 20-25%. 50% per class is extremely hefty.

The catch with that is that 25% will make it very cheap at low levels. A tri-class character under this system would only be about 1 level behind through (normal) level 7. The 5 level gap at (normal) level 15 is probably too punishing, but if the other side of the curve is - if anything - already too forgiving.

If you're really set on this, you probably need to make 2 additional xp tables for the multi-class option: one for 3-class splits and one for 2-class splits (and just say no to 4+). Purely eyeballing it, I would probably aim for a gap of 1.5 levels at 5 and 3 at around 15 (for three class splits). But vetting that would take a deeper dive into how the combinations look with subclasses cut out at the various levels.

[Waterdeep Merch]

The catch with that is that 25% will make it very cheap at low levels. A tri-class character under this system would only be about 1 level behind through (normal) level 7. The 5 level gap at (normal) level 15 is probably too punishing, but if the other side of the curve is - if anything - already too forgiving.

If you're really set on this, you probably need to make 2 additional xp tables for the multi-class option: one for 3-class splits and one for 2-class splits (and just say no to 4+). Purely eyeballing it, I would probably aim for a gap of 1.5 levels at 5 and 3 at around 15 (for three class splits). But vetting that would take a deeper dive into how the combinations look with subclasses cut out at the various levels.

On one hand, I totally don't want to because that's gobs of math.

On the other, you're completely right and it needs to be done if I want it balanced right.

I hope my players appreciate this.

[Mith]

As someone who loves this idea, I am following this with interest.

I personally say that I would be willing to pay the XP and HP cost to play a dual class. I also am not against this ruleset bringing back class restrictions (example, Half Orc =Barbarian, Halfling = rogue), with Humans being the more varied mix and match. Combine this with a high stat requirement (15 in relavant stats), the potential hit to HP etc.

But I really want a 20/20 Berzerker Champion to do 9 Reckless Attacks with a 17-20 crit range that can be built in a reasonable system that doesn't break down.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Okay, I did some dissecting of the levels for multiclassing. My goal is to keep dual multiclasses roughly 1.5 levels behind a normal character, and triple about 2.5. I'm probably going to retool subclasses yet again- I'm thinking allowing one, and only one. That way there's some variance in different multiclasses but abuses can be curtailed. Next I have to figure out the proper options for each race.

I used basic multipliers but stunted them at different points in order to match what I wanted, then fudged a few numbers to make them easier to read.

Level	Normal	Dual MC	Triple MC
1	-	-	-
2	300	750	900
3	900	2,250	2,700
4	2,700	6,750	8,100
5	6,500	16,250	19,500
6	14,000	28,000	35,000
7	23,000	34,500	46,000
8	34,000	51,000	68,000
9	48,000	72,000	96,000
10	64,000	96,000	112,000
11	85,000	106,000	127,500
12	100,000	125,000	150,000
13	120,000	150,000	180,000
14	140,000	175,000	210,000
15	165,000	206,000	248,000
16	195,000	244,000	293,000
17	225,000	281,000	338,000
18	265,000	331,000	398,000
19	305,000	381,000	458,000
20	355,000	444,000	533,000

[Mith]

To clarify, you get 1 subclass but up to two non subclass specific abilities with ghis system?

[Waterdeep Merch]

That's the gist of it. I'm still trying to get a good grip on the right balance point.

Perhaps introducing a level cap to simulate the old one might be helpful, too. I'm thinking capping dual-multiclasses at 19 and triple at 18. Enough to hit the final tier, but dual get denied their capstones while triple also loses out on their last ASI. Intentionally, since they get 1-2 entire extra classes of goodies. That'll also mean they hit their 'level cap' around the same time as everyone else, only slightly delayed.

That's all only a problem if a game goes all the way to 20, of course. But I'm designing this explicitly for a campaign that has the potential to get there, so I need it to be as sound as any other point during leveling.

[Mith]

That's the gist of it. I'm still trying to get a good grip on the right balance point.

Perhaps introducing a level cap to simulate the old one might be helpful, too. I'm thinking capping dual-multiclasses at 19 and triple at 18. Enough to hit the final tier, but dual get denied their capstones while triple also loses out on their last ASI. Intentionally, since they get 1-2 entire extra classes of goodies. That'll also mean they hit their 'level cap' around the same time as everyone else, only slightly delayed.

That's all only a problem if a game goes all the way to 20, of course. But I'm designing this explicitly for a campaign that has the potential to get there, so I need it to be as sound as any other point during leveling.

Hadn't realised the old system had level caps. Granted the only time we looked at it was when trying to get a Bard, so slightly different focus.

While I personally would be saddened by the loss of capstones and the like for dual/triple class, it does make sense. As a player, I probably would prefer a soft cap where there is an XP hike that slows things down, but allows for someone to make it to 20/20 given enough time, while single class players accumulate Boons and more Hit Dice.

Then again, the game probably really bresks down at this point, so it's probably not worth it.