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    Default How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    ... they only got the feat and the skill proficiency, NOT the stat increases to two stats of their choice?

    I'm trying to think of a way to nerf variant humans to the point where they're not the best option for almost any build that isn't required to be a specific race and that uses point buy, but not to the point of complete unviability.
    Last edited by ATHATH; 2018-08-17 at 11:32 PM.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    ... they only got the feat and the skill proficiency, NOT the stat increases to two stats of their choice?

    I'm trying to think of a way to nerf variant humans to the point where they're not the best option for almost any build that isn't required to be a specific race and that uses point buy, but not to the point of complete unviability.
    Without the stat increases there's no point taking them. Any other race would be better at that point. What makes Variant Humans good is this

    1) Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) - Other races are always left with an odd stat after +2/+1, which generally requires investing a feat to correct. V. Humans always get to have even stats after character creation. Using P.B. rather than Array remedies this issue, allowing other races to better use their +2/+1 over a V Human's +1/+1.
    2) Most games only get played in the 4-12 range. Once you need to start pumping secondary stats or taking less optimal feats, V. Humans become worse. For most classes, this is around level 12 (Feat + 2 stat ups). At this point, +2/+1 races equal V. Human in primary and secondary stat, and they have the feat. Their racials will always be better than V. Human's non-existent other racials. However, because most games don't tend to go far past the level 12 mark (if they even get there in the first place), V. Humans always seem a lot more powerful.
    3) Darkvision is often handwaved away. This is a major weakness of V. Humans that you can exploit to your advantage (though don't do it too often).
    4) Other races just kind of have suck-y racials. Every time I look through the race list to decide what I'm going to play, the choice basically boils down to
    • V. Human for Feat
    • Elf if I want Elven Accuracy
    • Yuan-Ti for Magic Resistance
    • WGtE Races are really good, I'd play one if the DM allowed it. I think they compete well with V. Human.
    • Flying races are usually banned, but they're better than Vuman
    • Goblins and Kobolds can be useful sometimes, but you need to have some measure of guarantee that you can use their abilities. For Goblins, you need short rests (If you're playing a 1-2 big fight day campaign, they're not great). For Kobolds, you need assurance that you won't get screwed by sunlight sensitivity.
    • Every other race brings nothing good and unique to the table. They're either abilities that are easily replicated, abilities that are often useless or both.


    If you want to nerf V. Human, just buff the other races slightly. The easiest way to do this is to change their +2/+1s to +2/+2s instead.
    Last edited by Exocist; 2018-08-17 at 11:53 PM.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    ... they only got the feat and the skill proficiency, NOT the stat increases to two stats of their choice?

    I'm trying to think of a way to nerf variant humans to the point where they're not the best option for almost any build that isn't required to be a specific race and that uses point buy, but not to the point of complete unviability.
    I don't think the skill proficiency factors in much... It's kind of like winning the scratchoff jackpot of 250,000$... plus a coupon for a free pizza.

    If you want to limit variant human though, I strongly suggest checking out wayfinder's guide to eberron, specifically the mark of finding, mark of making, mark of sentinel, & mark of handling human variants & just banning the phb one. also don't forget that those marks alsoi grant access to dragonmark focus items.

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    From the 'How would you make Standard Humans Unique' topic.

    Flexible: You gain +1 to two ability scores of your choice.
    Skilled: You gain one skill proficiency and one tool proficiency of your choice.
    True Grit: You have advantage on saving throws against Exhaustion
    Walk it Off: Add your Proficiency Modifier to health recovered from spending hit dice
    Determination: Once per short rest you may spend a Hit Die as a bonus action. Additionally, you may spend a Hit Die when you succeed on a Death Saving Throw.

    There ya go.

    The feat at first level is what makes Variant Human as crazy as it is. Removing the stat bumps is gimping them rather than addressing the actual issue.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebonack View Post
    From the 'How would you make Standard Humans Unique' topic.

    Flexible: You gain +1 to two ability scores of your choice.
    Skilled: You gain one skill proficiency and one tool proficiency of your choice.
    True Grit: You have advantage on saving throws against Exhaustion
    Walk it Off: Add your Proficiency Modifier to health recovered from spending hit dice
    Determination: Once per short rest you may spend a Hit Die as a bonus action. Additionally, you may spend a Hit Die when you succeed on a Death Saving Throw.

    There ya go.

    The feat at first level is what makes Variant Human as crazy as it is. Removing the stat bumps is gimping them rather than addressing the actual issue.
    You might be able to run on the "Human versatility" angle as well, e.x.

    Human


    Ability Score Increase: You gain +1 to two ability scores of your choice
    Skilled: You gain one tool proficiency and one skill proficiency of your choice

    X Subrace

    True Grit: You have advantage on saving throws against Exhaustion
    Walk it Off: Add your Proficiency Modifier to health recovered from spending hit dice
    Determination: Once per short rest you may spend a Hit Die as a bonus action. Additionally, you may spend a Hit Die when you succeed on a Death Saving Throw.

    Y Subrace

    Human Adaptability: After you finish a long rest, choose two skills, two tools or a skill and a tool. Until you finish your next long rest, whenever you make a check involving those skills or tools, roll 1d4 and add the result to the result of that check.
    Trial and Error: When you fail an ability check, you may use your reaction to reroll that ability check with disadvantage.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    ... they only got the feat and the skill proficiency, NOT the stat increases to two stats of their choice?

    I'm trying to think of a way to nerf variant humans to the point where they're not the best option for almost any build that isn't required to be a specific race and that uses point buy, but not to the point of complete unviability.
    I have two news for you, a bad and a good.
    The bad first: doing this makes Variant Human completely useless.
    The good: it's an unneeded change to make because you are creating a problem that does not exist, Variant Human is not at all "the best option for any build that isn't required to be a specific race and that uses point buy". Far from it really.
    Just considers...
    - Half-Elf: the most stat increase after plain Human, but easier to use, darkvision, skills.
    - Gnome: superior darkvision, advantage on WIS/CHA/INT magic.
    - Elves: advantage against being charmed, no need to sleep, some have Trance, others give free cantrips and spells etc.
    - Aarakocra: free flying.
    - Tabaxi: sustainable double speed.
    - Tortle: base 17 AC.
    etc etc.

    Say that "Variant Human is a very good option for any kind of build", I'll happily agree with you (especially since they expanded the feat list).
    But "Variant Human is the best option for any kind of build?" That's plain wrong, you just take the easy way instead of exploring options for whatever reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exocist View Post
    Without the stat increases there's no point taking them. Any other race would be better at that point. What makes Variant Humans good is this

    1) Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) - Other races are always left with an odd stat after +2/+1, which generally requires investing a feat to correct. V. Humans always get to have even stats after character creation. Using P.B. rather than Array remedies this issue, allowing other races to better use their +2/+1 over a V Human's +1/+1.
    2) Most games only get played in the 4-12 range. Once you need to start pumping secondary stats or taking less optimal feats, V. Humans become worse. For most classes, this is around level 12 (Feat + 2 stat ups). At this point, +2/+1 races equal V. Human in primary and secondary stat, and they have the feat. Their racials will always be better than V. Human's non-existent other racials. However, because most games don't tend to go far past the level 12 mark (if they even get there in the first place), V. Humans always seem a lot more powerful.
    3) Darkvision is often handwaved away. This is a major weakness of V. Humans that you can exploit to your advantage (though don't do it too often).
    4) Other races just kind of have suck-y racials. Every time I look through the race list to decide what I'm going to play, the choice basically boils down to
    • V. Human for Feat
    • Elf if I want Elven Accuracy
    • Yuan-Ti for Magic Resistance
    • WGtE Races are really good, I'd play one if the DM allowed it. I think they compete well with V. Human.
    • Flying races are usually banned, but they're better than Vuman
    • Goblins and Kobolds can be useful sometimes, but you need to have some measure of guarantee that you can use their abilities. For Goblins, you need short rests (If you're playing a 1-2 big fight day campaign, they're not great). For Kobolds, you need assurance that you won't get screwed by sunlight sensitivity.
    • Every other race brings nothing good and unique to the table. They're either abilities that are easily replicated, abilities that are often useless or both.


    If you want to nerf V. Human, just buff the other races slightly. The easiest way to do this is to change their +2/+1s to +2/+2s instead.
    First bolded part: well, that's plain untrue: there is no obligation for people to put the +2 on top of 15, you can start with two 16 instead (and I'd daresay it's often a better start, but tbf it completely depends on how you want to spend later ASI).
    Second bolded part: to be honest I find really stupid to say such thing as "you can get this feature from another source so it's useless" (summed up). Considering how many classes share features or spells but usually at different levels.
    So Paladin getting access to Bless at 2nd level is not worth because a lvl 1 dip in Cleric would net the same effect? Nope, because it required an investment, pushing Extra Attack and Aura of Protection later, wasting redundant proficiencies, and requiring a good WIS.
    It's exactly the same with racial features...
    When you really want just one cantrip for a build (like a Booming Blade for a non-AT Rogue, or Shillelagh for a Monk/Ranger), getting it as a racial avoids you spending a feat while getting also other perks and possibly better aligned stats.
    When you play a non-Paladin martial, having advantage against being charmed and/or frightened is very important considering you have weak saves against such spells, it can allow you to put Resilient: Wisdom to much later in progression or maybe not take it at all.
    Halflings have a warranty to avoid automatic failures (mostly, as rolling two 1 in a row is very, very low chance), great on martials with many attacks or skillmonkeys that are not high-level Rogues. And the ability to hide behind a creature can be useful for many people, although Rogues especially but not only.
    Dwarf's proficiencies could be replicated with one or two feats depending on your starting class, or a dip into a martial/Cleric class... But this means delaying powerful features by an increasingly larger amount of time.

    Etc etc. And I didn't speak of all non-PHB races, nor about racial feats that were introduced in later books. Completely wasting the "Variant Human is the best choice" idea for so many builds.

    --
    If you really wanted to crown a race for that, it would/could definitely be Half-Elf:
    - Still +2 in CHA, giving easy access to great dip options for non CHA classes.
    - Still two +1 you can freely assign to whatever stat you want to round, meaning it's useful whatever class you'd pick.
    - Still a free skill, great when you just wanted three that are not from class (so 2 from background, third here).
    - If/when SCAG is a thing, ability to pick a special ancestry bringing extra proficiency / cantrip / spell / racial feature.
    - If/when XGE is a thing, ability to grab the new most powerful (arguably broken) feat for 95% builds (Elven Accuracy) AND the one allowing anyone to trump Barbarians or Rogues in their expertise field (Prodigy).

    Besting Half-Elf or close behind depending on allowed books could be Yuan-Ti (advantage on ALL saving throws against magic), all other Elves (cantrips, proficiencies, special feats all very powerful), Tabaxis (double speed every two turns is extremely good for any class), Tortle (base 17 AC, no stat or armor required, is a dream come true for half casters at least as well as any character build whose armor would rely on stats but does not want to max said stat for whatever reason), Aarakocra (unless underground campaign of course ^^) then all others (Dragon Fear is a great asset on many people, casters or martial alike).
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-08-18 at 03:55 AM.

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    snip
    So Paladin getting access to Bless at 2nd level is not worth because a lvl 1 dip in Cleric would net the same effect? Nope, because it required an investment, pushing Extra Attack and Aura of Protection later, wasting redundant proficiencies, and requiring a good WIS.
    It's exactly the same with racial features...
    When you really want just one cantrip for a build (like a Booming Blade for a non-AT Rogue, or Shillelagh for a Monk/Ranger), getting it as a racial avoids you spending a feat while getting also other perks and possibly better aligned stats.
    When you play a non-Paladin martial, having advantage against being charmed and/or frightened is very important considering you have weak saves against such spells, it can allow you to put Resilient: Wisdom to much later in progression or maybe not take it at all.
    Halflings have a warranty to avoid automatic failures (mostly, as rolling two 1 in a row is very, very low chance), great on martials with many attacks or skillmonkeys that are not high-level Rogues. And the ability to hide behind a creature can be useful for many people, although Rogues especially but not only.
    Dwarf's proficiencies could be replicated with one or two feats depending on your starting class, or a dip into a martial/Cleric class... But this means delaying powerful features by an increasingly larger amount of time.

    snip

    Besting Half-Elf or close behind depending on allowed books could be Yuan-Ti (advantage on ALL saving throws against magic), all other Elves (cantrips, proficiencies, special feats all very powerful), Tabaxis (double speed every two turns is extremely good for any class), Tortle (base 17 AC, no stat or armor required, is a dream come true for half casters at least as well as any character build whose armor would rely on stats but does not want to max said stat for whatever reason), Aarakocra (unless underground campaign of course ^^) then all others (Dragon Fear is a great asset on many people, casters or martial alike).
    First bolded part is still true - If you start with 2 16s on array, your third stat is a 13. Still have an odd stat.

    Paladin getting access to bless at 2nd level isn't really the same as doing 1 cleric for the same. I assume you took 2 Paladin because you wanted Divine Smite, so there wasn't really a choice. If I just wanted to cast Bless and didn't care about anything else, Paladin 2 would be the strictly inferior choice for that (The only thing it would get over a Cleric is this case is +1 AC from Fighting style, which we don't care too much about).

    I will concede High Elf for Rogues. Elves are already a decent choice for rogues anyhow - Elven Accuracy is really good on them.

    Advantage on saves vs Charm and Frighten or just taking Res (Wis)... hmm.. tough choice. Well, let's break down our Martial classes that aren't Paladin.
    • Barbarian - Wants STR, so Halfling/Elf is going to be a pretty bad choice anyway. If you're that worried about charm/frighten, take Berserker as your Subclass and make use of Mindless Rage.
    • Fighter - This could go STR or DEX, but I think having a better race and just using Indomitable (by the time these save vs taken out of combat type things are common, you should have it) is a better option for a fighter. I'd rather just have PAM/GWM online earlier and splatter the WIS-save causer.
    • Monk - They get Stillness of Mind by 7th level. Sure, it costs your action, but WIS save vs disable generally costs them their action too.
    • Ranger - Who even plays this garbage? Maybe your best bet is just to shoot them with a bow. I assume if you play a Ranger, you're playing a Gloom Stalker, which means proficiency in WIS saves at 7th.
    • Rogue - Actually the most relevant, but Elves and Halflings are already a good option for Rogues. The advantage isn't why you're taking them. You're either taking Elf for BB + Elven Accuracy or taking Halfling for Lightfoot.


    Halflings have Lucky, which, while great for avoiding that nat 1, is less useful if you play with inspiration (my DM doesn't so lets assume that). When you break Lucky down the bonus really isn't that much. It's usually a +0.6 bonus to attacks/checks/saves. Is that worth it? Maybe. It's a wide coverage for a passive ability for sure, but there's a real "Master of None" feel to that ability.

    Dwarf's proficiencies are mostly bad because of their stat bonuses. Any class that can use those stat bonuses pretty much already has proficiency in what dwarves give.

    Half-Elf being better than Vuman... ehhh. They start with 2 16s and a 14, Vuman starts with 2 14s and a 16. The biggest draw of Half-Elf over Vuman is Elven Accuracy. If you're taking it just for EA, normal elves will most likely do it better because of the half-feat nature of it - it lets you even out the odd stats rather than giving you an odd stat that you now want to find a way to even out. Again, Half-Elf will be better than Vuman by level 12, but by that point the game's over. Before then, it was a better choice to be an Elf or a Vuman. The extra 2 skills... I suppose if your DM is a fan of throwing out the skill checks.

    I have already mentioned Yuan-Ti, XGtE, Kobolds & Goblins as contenders for Vuman. I don't want to talk about Aarakocra or Feral Tiefling because they're often banned - they're 100% better than literally any other race if allowed. Tabaxi... maybe? I was thinking about adding them to my list. If your DM is a fan of starting combat at a distance, they're good for Martial characters. I'll grant that.

    Let's talk about Tortle (and why I don't think it's good). 1 dropping another class doesn't put you that far behind. The only use, really, is for Strogues and Stronks (Strength Monks). Spellcasters can afford to lose the level (Upcasting spell doesn't really put you that far behind having the next spell level, and it's only for 1/2 the time anyway) and the other bonuses of Tortle are generally awful anyway. Clerics and Druids don't want it because they already have medium armor (at least). Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards generally don't want it either - the bonuses it gives aren't worth the opportunity cost.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Ah, yes. Having Heavy Armour Master from 1st level or Sharpshooter definitely makes humans worthless.

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Ah, yes. Having Heavy Armour Master from 1st level or Sharpshooter definitely makes humans worthless.

    How do i blue text on a phone?
    Ah yeah, I forgot about all those level 1-3 campaigns where Heavy Armour Master would outweigh 3 stat points and every other race is unable to take HAM
    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Variant Humans aren't overpowered, nor are they the "best choice" for any build that doesn't require a specified race.
    They're better than the Dragonborn by a long shot, because the Dragonborn's breeath weapon isn't very good, but all the Variant human gets is a single feat.

    Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge that feats are very good in this edition, and the ability to grab a feat at first level is nothing to be sneezed at. But do I think that, say, Sharpshooter outclasses Darkvision, Advantage on Saving throws versus being charmed, an extra skill proficiency, an extra ASI and extra languages? Not really.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    If you play with lighting rules, Vhuman is going to have issues in most campaigns (until/unless they get an item or spell to get it); it’s tough to be blinded.

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Exocist View Post
    Ah yeah, I forgot about all those level 1-3 campaigns where Heavy Armour Master would outweigh 3 stat points and every other race is unable to take HAM
    1-3 is the point at which Sharpshooter/GWM and HWM are at their strongest because of the percentage of damage it causes/prevents.

    Every single module produced by WotC starts from 1st level. 1-3rd level is the part where most characters are at risk of dying, and at 4th level, they can pick up the ASI as they need to, or another feat to help out the build. At 5th level Revivify just turns death into a spell resource, rather than actual life and death.

    But sure, vHumans with a feat a more worthless than Dragonborn.

    Try again, but with feeling.

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Limiting them to a half-feat solves a lot of the problems--it prevents most of the really strong stuff, while allowing them to still be nice and varied.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    1-3 is the point at which Sharpshooter/GWM and HWM are at their strongest because of the percentage of damage it causes/prevents.

    Every single module produced by WotC starts from 1st level. 1-3rd level is the part where most characters are at risk of dying, and at 4th level, they can pick up the ASI as they need to, or another feat to help out the build. At 5th level Revivify just turns death into a spell resource, rather than actual life and death.

    But sure, vHumans with a feat a more worthless than Dragonborn.

    Try again, but with feeling.
    You're missing the point here - Vuman would start with 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, HAM and skill. Any other race would start with 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, 8 + Racial bonuses. At 4th level, Vuman can go to 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 (not great) while the other race goes and picks up their feat (putting them ahead of Vuman due to better racials).

    That means that Vuman would basically be limited to old school toughness levels of usefulness - only worth playing if you're running a campaign that goes from level 1 to level 3 and that's it. Otherwise, you're behind everyone else.

    Levels 1-3 might be where characters are at the most risk of dying, but it's also where the enemies are weakest. Proper tactic (like a longbow/heavy crossbow/shortbow/light crossbow) will deal with basically every threat thrown at you in those levels. You don't need HAM to survive unless you like running in guns blazing - at which point I'd argue that you deserve whatever happens to you. Once you hit that level 4 mark (Which the game accelerates you to, because it tries to get PCs to level 5 quickly), Vuman would lose their only bonus over other races.

    Comparing ASI-less Vuman to literally the worst race in the game (Seriously what was WOTC thinking? Maybe if your DM allows Dragon Wings from the UA but bans flying races...) isn't doing your argument any justice. Try instead to compare it to a competitive choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Limiting them to a half-feat solves a lot of the problems--it prevents most of the really strong stuff, while allowing them to still be nice and varied.
    What does that give us without UA?

    • Actor (god no)
    • Athlete (see above)
    • Durable (ugh)
    • Keen Mind (...)
    • Linquist (why?)
    • Observant (I suppose if your DM likes to ambush you a lot?)
    • Resilient (a good option, finally)
    • Tavern Brawler (fun, but not great option)
    • Weapon Master (back to trash)
    • All the Armor feats except Medium Armor Master (HAM is good early but falls off fast unless DM is super into wide encounters)
    • Human Determination (pretty garbage if you ask me)
    • Prodigy (Maybe for focused grapple builds? I think dipping rogue is still a better option)
    • Aberrant Dragonmark (it's pretty trash)


    So basically we have a choice between Observent, HAM and Resilient?
    Last edited by Exocist; 2018-08-18 at 09:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    If you glue a dagger to your opponent's double weapon, do they lose the benefit of Revenant blade since they are now wielding a triple bladed weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by the secret fire View Post
    As DM, I have a strict policy requiring that all intra-party marriages be consummated.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    I'm not sure if you're trolling or if you legimitately bieve a Vhuman is going to be stat upping a tertiary stat?

    Whatever, I'm done if you think that 'proper tactics like picking off enemies with a longbow from afar' works in the vast majority of battles a DM throws against you, because in that case you could argue a non proficient guy with a shortbow is capable of 'beating the game.'

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    I'm not sure if you're trolling or if you legimitately bieve a Vhuman is going to be stat upping a tertiary stat?

    Whatever, I'm done if you think that 'proper tactics like picking off enemies with a longbow from afar' works in the vast majority of battles a DM throws against you, because in that case you could argue a non proficient guy with a shortbow is capable of 'beating the game.'
    I'm not sure if you're trolling by arguing that no stat boost Vuman is competitive with other options.

    You mentioned WotC printed adventures. Those are usually beatable with... "proper tactic"... like picking up a bow and shooting them from afar. The combat isn't really designed to be difficult in the 1-3 range. The designers know how swingy it gets, so they deliberately made them on the weak side. You can pretty much just pick up a bow and start sniping them. Sure the DM is likely to rule that they'll have a ranged option as well (extremely reasonable), but that's not what's in the book so...

    If you're not running printed adventures, WotC's own data shows that the most popular range of play is Tier 2 and a little outside of it - or the 4-12 range. At this point, the bonuses from an ASI-less variant human become nil, as everyone will have the feat to compete with them as soon as the game starts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    If you glue a dagger to your opponent's double weapon, do they lose the benefit of Revenant blade since they are now wielding a triple bladed weapon?
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Still not disproved my point that stats mean nothing in that instance if all it takes is using a ranged weapon to make ranged attacks.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Still not disproved my point that stats mean nothing in that instance if all it takes is using a ranged weapon to make ranged attacks.
    The stats mean something once using a ranged weapon to make ranged attacks no longer becomes the method of choice for dealing with the encounters WotC throws at you. Which is conveniently about level 5+ once they decide you have the big boy tools to deal with them.. you know, after the first ASI.

    Also the stats do technically mean something before then - the Vuman with a 15 has a +2 to-hit and damage, the other race with a 16 has a +3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    If you glue a dagger to your opponent's double weapon, do they lose the benefit of Revenant blade since they are now wielding a triple bladed weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by the secret fire View Post
    As DM, I have a strict policy requiring that all intra-party marriages be consummated.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Exocist View Post
    The stats mean something once using a ranged weapon to make ranged attacks no longer becomes the method of choice for dealing with the encounters WotC throws at you. Which is conveniently about level 5+ once they decide you have the big boy tools to deal with them.. you know, after the first ASI.

    Also the stats do technically mean something before then - the Vuman with a 15 has a +2 to-hit and damage, the other race with a 16 has a +3.
    But, but, you said proper tactics...

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    But, but, you said proper tactics...
    I said this

    Quote Originally Posted by Exocist
    Levels 1-3 might be where characters are at the most risk of dying, but it's also where the enemies are weakest. Proper tactic (like a longbow/heavy crossbow/shortbow/light crossbow) will deal with basically every threat thrown at you in those levels.
    While it's true shooting things with a bow works wonders in WotC made campaigns from levels 1-4, past that you're going to need a better way of not getting yourself killed. HAM isn't that solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    If you glue a dagger to your opponent's double weapon, do they lose the benefit of Revenant blade since they are now wielding a triple bladed weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by the secret fire View Post
    As DM, I have a strict policy requiring that all intra-party marriages be consummated.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Exocist View Post
    I said this



    While it's true shooting things with a bow works wonders in WotC made campaigns from levels 1-4, past that you're going to need a better way of not getting yourself killed. HAM isn't that solution.
    Nah, mate, you're just not using your proper tactics better if your proper tactics aren't working at the stage. Learn to use your proper tactics better and ensure you get every +1 like a proper tactical person.

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Nah, mate, you're just not using your proper tactics better if your proper tactics aren't working at the stage. Learn to use your proper tactics better and ensure you get every +1 like a proper tactical person.
    What if I properly tactic my proper tactics, then I can properly out tactic my properly tactical opponents
    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    If you glue a dagger to your opponent's double weapon, do they lose the benefit of Revenant blade since they are now wielding a triple bladed weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by the secret fire View Post
    As DM, I have a strict policy requiring that all intra-party marriages be consummated.
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Exocist View Post
    What if I properly tactic my proper tactics, then I can properly out tactic my properly tactical opponents
    +1.

    Propertacticletters

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    They’d be bad. Even now, they’re good for anything (that doesn’t need dark vision) but they aren’t THE BEST for everything.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    They’d be bad. Even now, they’re good for anything (that doesn’t need dark vision) but they aren’t THE BEST for everything.
    What if they DID get darkvision?
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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Theyd lose their primary purpose. Humans are supposed to be effective at any class due to their bonuses to ability scores. They're supposed to be slightly better at any class than the majority of other races, and only worse at a few with exceptional natural talent in a specific ability score. I know mechanically +1 vs +0 isn't that huge a difference, but it's the perception that counts.

    They'd still be plenty powerful enough IMO. A free Feat at level one is huge. Take that opinion with a grain of salt though. Outside AL some years back I've only seen them in a few one shots I've run, since my main game is featless.

    One interesting thing about humans is optimzers often look at them kinda backwards. They don't go "my elf would make a good rogue or wizard" and "my halfling would not be best as a barbarian*" and "my human would be good at anything". Instead they think "I'm making a rogue, why be a human rogue when I can be an elf rogue?"

    *but I'm going to make one anyway because Halfling Barbarian!

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Exocist View Post


    What does that give us without UA?

    • Actor (god no)
    • Athlete (see above)
    • Durable (ugh)
    • Keen Mind (...)
    • Linquist (why?)
    • Observant (I suppose if your DM likes to ambush you a lot?)
    • Resilient (a good option, finally)
    • Tavern Brawler (fun, but not great option)
    • Weapon Master (back to trash)
    • All the Armor feats except Medium Armor Master (HAM is good early but falls off fast unless DM is super into wide encounters)
    • Human Determination (pretty garbage if you ask me)
    • Prodigy (Maybe for focused grapple builds? I think dipping rogue is still a better option)
    • Aberrant Dragonmark (it's pretty trash)


    So basically we have a choice between Observent, HAM and Resilient?
    • Actor (GREAT feat for any character that wants to be a sneaky little bugger. I would put this as one of the top feats out there as it has a lot of great out of combat utility. This will allow you to win combats before you enter combat)
    • Athlete (Prone is an annoying condition, jumping can be fun and help ignore difficult terrain, climbing can be fun)
    • Durable (Absolutely great for low level/low healing games.)
    • Keen Mind (Great out of combat/meta utility, make the DM remember stuff. Other two things are a bit niche but the third boon is hilariously meta)
    • Linguist (Ciphers! Another out of combat utility! This is also the feat that keeps giving, teach a cipher to your party and then everyone can use it... Communication can be key to surviving behind enemy lines)
    • Observant (passive perc/insp is a very nice number to have high. Being able to read lips is again a skill that is great out of combat utility)
    • Resilient (I take this the least now days. Saving throws are nice, but most things aren't horrible and you can do decently well without it during level 10 and below)
    • Tavern Brawler (fun, gives you a bonus action to use when a lot of characters won't have one. Also can lead to players using the weirdest things to attack with! Great for city games or when you need to beat something to death with a rock. DM likes to take your toys away? Not anymore.)
    • Weapon Master (Yeah, trash.)
    • All the Armor feats except Medium Armor Master (All have their place. Moderately Armored is an awesome for many archetypes such as the Str rogue (who has a little bit of dex) all the way to the Warlock. )
    • Human Determination (???)
    • Prodigy (This is fantastic! You can be Human, Half-Orc, or Half-Elf and not have to delay your progression in order to get Expertise! Expertise is broken. This mixes well with Shield Master, Tavern Brawler, or any other time you will use a skill check. In battle, out of battle, or whatever... Actor + Expertise = Win even with a 10 Cha )
    • Aberrant Dragonmark (???)


    If we are talking about direct combat worth... Sure... But D&D is so much more than just direct combat.

    So it's a choice of a lot of great feats!
    I'm out.

    Don't want to deal with this site anymore

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpaligtr View Post
    • snip
    • Human Determination (???)
    • Aberrant Dragonmark (???)


    If we are talking about direct combat worth...
    It's a lot of things that (in the games I play) either don't show up a lot or could be mimicked with some RP.

    If you want to know what those two do

    Human Determination: Is unearthed arcana whoops
    Aberrant Dragonmark:
    • +1 to CON
    • Learn a cantrip and 1st level spell from the Sorcerer list (you can cast the 1st once per long rest without expending a slot, CON is your spellcasting ability for it)
    • When you cast a spell with your aberrant mark, you can use a hit dice to increase the spell's level by 1. Afterwards, roll that hit dice and take damage equal to the result.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    If you glue a dagger to your opponent's double weapon, do they lose the benefit of Revenant blade since they are now wielding a triple bladed weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by the secret fire View Post
    As DM, I have a strict policy requiring that all intra-party marriages be consummated.
    The Latte-Lock, a less cheesy version of the Coffeelock

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    Default Re: How bad/still good would variant humans be if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Exocist View Post
    It's a lot of things that (in the games I play) either don't show up a lot or could be mimicked with some RP.

    If you want to know what those two do

    Human Determination: Is unearthed arcana whoops
    Aberrant Dragonmark:
    • +1 to CON
    • Learn a cantrip and 1st level spell from the Sorcerer list (you can cast the 1st once per long rest without expending a slot, CON is your spellcasting ability for it)
    • When you cast a spell with your aberrant mark, you can use a hit dice to increase the spell's level by 1. Afterwards, roll that hit dice and take damage equal to the result.
    That's really not bad at all. Booming Blade + Expeditious Retreat + Con bonus... seems better than Magic Initiate due to the Con bonus. I can see other spells like Mage Armor, Disguise Self and Feather Fall being attractive too. Potentially also other cantrips, like Mold Earth, depending on what what your character places on combat vs. pre-combat/non-combat specializations.

    I assume it's an Eberron thing though so not likely to ever show up at my table.

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