My thief feels useless- sorry for the long post

[Zephyr8644]

Ok so i am currently playing in a campaign with 2 other players and the DM, All the pc are brothers and they are as followed

(Vaarlen Shadow-bane) lv8 Ranger who has a hand full of magic items which are a belt and bracer combo that some how raise their strength to 23 (not identified), 2 magic long swords that do double damage to our primary enemy in the game home-brew shadows of the neg plane and some magic leather scale, also a ring of protection

(Magnus the spell slinger)The other player who is the most experienced player other then the DM is a mage/cleric (big mistake)like lv 10 cleric/lv 9mage but has these magic items that give them the level of the mage/cleric who where the collar end there by enslaving them in a way to the master collar so he is like lv15 cleric and lv 19 mage just no extra hit points with a lot of spells (we use a spell point system for mages)

(Me) i am a Lv 9 thief with 1 xp to get lv 10 my stats are (S-15 I-12 W-10 D-18 C-17 CH-10 AC of 4) i have no magic armor the one i could of gotten didn't suit my char for Rp reasons and i use a +3 dagger and long sword i also have a Necklace of protection (which give a +1 to saves and give a 1/20 chance of saving vs any spell without a saving throw, i also have a custom bag of haversack which the mage is buying off me for all their spell books.

we are currently in a civil war sort of thing with the shadows controlling the enemy and we are attacking their main base after which we should be able to take a break an learn things like for the ranger and me to remove the 50% penalty's for us either not being outdoors and sneaking or not being in a city which only i have shown interest in. but i am feeling useless as most mages we encounter are killed by ours which helps but then when i get into combat with fighters i roll bad and they outnumber us so i end up trying to hold out while the others deal with them and i feel like i am about as useful as some of our NPC which is starting to drain on me and take some of the fun out of playing. i have looked online for ways i can go about trying to play smarter and what not but to no avail with 2e and then i remembered this site and so i am posting this to see what some veterans can do with shedding some light on my current predicament.

[The Glyphstone]

Have you tried talking to your DM? that's the first and last step - nothing we can advise matter if the DM doesn't know you are having a problem and isn't willing to help you fix it.

[Mutazoia]

Have you tried talking to your DM? that's the first and last step - nothing we can advise matter if the DM doesn't know you are having a problem and isn't willing to help you fix it.

Pretty much this.

But on a side note, personally, I would be a bit wary of playing in a game where the DM allows one character to get a OP as your mage/cleric is. Not having extra HP means very little when you have that much casting power, quite literally at your fingertips. And then we have the ranger who's weapons do double damage to the most common enemy in the campaign? It's no wonder you feel useless....you pretty much are. Your character has been reduced to a walking, talking lock pick set. Unless the OP caster decides to magic the lock open, then your just comedy relief.

[LibraryOgre]

Yeah. Thief is the weakest class in the game, to start, and then you've got a wizard/cleric and a ranger. The ranger has about as much experience as you do... but is WAY better equipped, for a class that can run strong if the campaign allows it (like, they got some really neat magic weapons). The wizard/cleric is already a powerful combination... but they not only have about 3 times your XP (if you're 1 XP away from 10th, you have 159,999 XP. They have a minimum of 450,000 XP to be a 10th level cleric/mage if multiclassed... "only" 360,000 if a human dual-class), they ALSO have a magic item which has them functioning far higher than that.

So, yeah, there's a bit of DM favoritism in there. If you had XP like the wizard, you'd be closer to late 11th or 12th level... still not going to do a lot compared to a vanilla mage/cleric, much less the monster that this magic collar enables them to be, and you might be a bit better equiped.

Oh, and the ranger doesn't need a combo of items to get a 23 strength. That's just a girdle of Fire Giant Strength. If he's also using gauntlets of ogre power, he normally cannot stack those two effects without using a magic hammer.

[ricks]

There are a couple of considerations here. First, if the other have way better magic items than you, they're going to be able to do more stuff. I posit the question of how you're allocating magic items as a group. Second, the XP also don't align, so I'd wonder why your XP are so different than the C/MU. More XP would mean more hit-points and a better THAC0.

Those are game issues you should address at a player/player/GM level.


You picked a thief. Thieves are not power characters, either the front-line or the rear. You can't play them the same way. You have a set of abilities that work over and over. Try figuring out how to leverage that. Play as an archer, with the Ranger taking the brunt of the incoming front-line damage instead of sharing that load. If you look at the numbers, you're likely not "rolling bad," you need vastly higher rolls to succeed, so it just feels like you're less successful. If you need a 15 to hit, and the fighter needs a 10, he's going to hit twice as often as you. if he gets 2 attacks per round, he'll hit 4 times more often than you. That's not bad rolling, that's math. He has a much higher AC, which in turn you take more damage, and you have less hit points. You CAN'T compete, even on an even playing field (which this is not) in front-line combat.

The thief plays a slower game. I would suggest not focusing on backstab - the ranger will out-damage even your backstab multiplier, and can do it every round, and will be more likely to hit even with your backstab bonus. Getting way out in front for recon. Set traps for your enemies. Work with the MU/Cleric to boost your skills with support spells. If you're playing in a campaign that's ALL about combat, you won't have the opportunities to have your skills shine.


Finally, if you're not happy with the character, create another character.

PS No idea why you're selling a magic item you can use to the spell caster for spell books you can't use, unless your campaign lets you convert magic items (books) to gold to magic items (better items than what you have, or are trading). If the trade is not CLEARLY in your favor, tell them no.

[Zephyr8644]

ok i have seen some questions about the game and i will try to answer them

1 the reason the Xp doesn't match up is because there have been points where i have had enough xp to go up 2 levels and we have it so you can only go up 1 level per session so i have lost alot of Xp

2 the magic items are normally divided on who they suit the best i jumped on a plus 3 sword as i found it and the ranger was happy to have the +2 sun swords and Rp it work for them

3 the mages magic items that boost spell casters are a part of the setting and we are going to destroy them but we need to find the creator in order to find out how they were made so the mage will be returning to normal levels

4 i am going to get into contact with the Dm as i am writing this

5 the reason i am selling the bag of holding is because the wizard need it for all their tomes they have collected and now use, and all i use it for is a money pouch

5 the mage clerics proper level i have discovered was about 7/8 or 8/9

[CE DM]

ok...the xp is not off so much then. It looked bad to me as well.

aside from that, it's magic items (mainly a DM thing, but also player distribution, as others mentioned)

Thieves aren't strong in combat in AD&D. If a single class thief IS to be a combat monster, then it is THEY that need the super powerful magic items. (If you have STR 23 & dual wielded sunblades, you'd be a/the beast, right?). This could be addressed, to a small degree (the caster stuff is nuts), by you having the cloud giant strength thing(s). As that seems a bit unlikely, if it was done on the up and up, at least trade a sword (or both weapons) with the ranger, even if only temporarily. As to the haversack...well, you can carry the wizard's books, you know, you do not have to sell it to him. Moreover, as bloated as his spells are, he could take care of his books on his own, with spells like item, Leomund's secret chest, teleport, etc.

In general, though, aside from those specific issues, if one wants a "combat thief" in AD&D, then make up a fighter/thief, another multi-class, dual-class, or take one of the very few kits that greatly enhance a thief's combat prowess (swashbuckler, hellblade, celt, etc).

As to simply playing differently...well, be a thief & avoid fighting altogether. What abilities ARE you good at? If you ARE sneaky, then sneak & hide & scout. Do not enter combat for a round or 2, and finish off foes with a backstab. Frankly, it doesn't seem like those 2 powerhouses need you swinging swords as things stand, so don't when u can avoid it. Focus on your skills, and making them useful. Keep some of that attitude/focus even when you DO get some mighty magic like the others have. On the cleric/mage: swollen with extra spells & power as he is, get him to cast some buffs & defensive spells on you, to balance things out. stoneskin, invisible mail, battlefate, prayer, recitation, chaos ward, armor, cat's grace, strength, invisibility, non detection, pro vs evil 10'r, blessed watchfulness, sacred guardian, hold poison, unfailing endurance, fly, etc.

[Khedrac]

1 the reason the Xp doesn't match up is because there have been points where i have had enough xp to go up 2 levels and we have it so you can only go up 1 level per session so i have lost alot of Xp

If this is happening regulatly try to get your DM to hand out experience more often - and point out to him just how much xp you are losing because of this. AD&D attempted to balance different classes by xp so if you are losing xp your character is underpowered compared to the rest of the party by definition.

[Lord Torath]

Ask for something that will make you better at recon. I'd say, a Ring of Invis and/or a Broom of Flying. The Broom is probably more important than the ring, as I suspect your cleric/mage buddy can probably spare an Invisibility spell or two for you each day. If the Ranger is the Melee Guy, and your Cleric/Mage buddy is obviously Magic Guy, maybe you can be Recon Guy.

Is your DM using Weapon Specialization? If so, you can ask if he'd let you specialize in a bow (normally only Fighters can specialize, but some DMs allow other classes to become Experts or, if PO:C&T is in use, achieve low level specialization). This could get you a Point Blank range, as well as higher rates of fire (if using PO:C&T Grand Mastery rules) As a thief, you are much better off staying away from the front lines. While you can't use the Girdle of Giant Strength, you can use the Gauntlets of Ogre Power (which aren't doing your Ranger buddy any good if he's wearing the Girdle and dual-wielding swords), and combined with your high dexterity, will let you really kill stuff with a bow (dexterity and strength bonuses both add to your "to hit" rolls). Ask about making a magic bow that has a RoF of 3 arrows per round. Maybe he'll let you make one, and maybe he'll put one in a loot drop (or in the hands of an opponent).

[CharonsHelper]

Yeah. Thief is the weakest class in the game, to start, and then you've got a wizard/cleric and a ranger.

Thieves aren't strong in combat in AD&D.

Yeah - it seems to be a cross between the Thief being weak and everyone else having better gear. (And a house rule hosing the Thief further due to losing EXP.)

Frankly - the only way to really make a straight 2e Thief good is with one of the later kits - which were pretty obvious buffs. (Or with dual-classing shenanigans.) Otherwise every Thief should really be a multi-classed character, as a Thief loses very little by going Fighter/Thief even if they don't want to dabble in spells instead. The Fighter/Thief will have better THATCO, better HP, better weapon proficiencies, and approx. the same saves. Your backstab MIGHT be 1x behind, but your base damage will be better. The only real drawback is that you'll be 1-2 levels behind on lockpicking/stealth etc., but that really isn't a huge deal relative to all you gain.

I'd go OOC and ask the DM/group if you can re-build your character as a Fighter/Thief based upon the group's total EXP (and you wouldn't have lost much/any EXP if you were multi-classed).

[Dallion80]

First off i get the one level per session your DM should of let you kept the xp just not level up to that level until the next session. the lower xp requirements for thief levels is one of the draws to playing a thief in 2nd ed. One thing you can do is start playing with a sense of self preservation...aka loot mongering. while the other two kill everything quickly you can search around for other things avoiding the fight all together.

[Kyrell1978]

Totally agree with the above advice to see if you can remake your character as a Fighter/thief. Then if you are going to be stuck in the undead heavy campaign maybe be an elf (didn't catch what race you were) and throw on the undead slayer kit. That should help some, but you need to get gear to compete with the gear they have. Sorry you're having issues, I think we've all been there at one point or another.

[Mutazoia]

Has your DM played 2nd ed before, or is he a 3+ player trying 2nd ed for the first time. Because it sounds to me like this is the case. In 3+, everyone is the same level, and melee types are more or less equal, with slight variations. This is the only reason I can really see for the DM not wanting the thief to level faster than the other two. The thief who, in 2nd ed, is designed to level a little faster than the rest of the party, to make up for some of the classes other failings. In order for your thief to be on par with the ranger (in combat), you NEED to be a few levels ahead of him. He get's spell casting abilities, for example, you don't.

AS others have suggested, it might be wise to multi-class. Personally, I would choose to start picking up cleric levels. The reverse heal spells alone will boost your damage output (even if you have to touch your target to cast it...touch attacks are a bit easier in 2nd ed), and Animate Dead can give you your own pack of insta-thugs to mob enemies with. And let's not forget that Silence 15' radius not only makes it easier to sneak up on people, but, in 2nd ed, it more or less shuts down a spell caster instantly (well any spell that requires a verbal component anyway). And you can cast it on objects, such as an arrow, and the shoot it at peoples feet. OH...and speaking of touch attacks... Command can be used to make an enemy surrender instantly....just touch him and say "surrender". One word command that must be obeyed...and no save.

[BigBadHarve]

AS others have suggested, it might be wise to multi-class. Personally, I would choose to start picking up cleric levels. The reverse heal spells alone will boost your damage output (even if you have to touch your target to cast it...touch attacks are a bit easier in 2nd ed), and Animate Dead can give you your own pack of insta-thugs to mob enemies with. And let's not forget that Silence 15' radius not only makes it easier to sneak up on people, but, in 2nd ed, it more or less shuts down a spell caster instantly (well any spell that requires a verbal component anyway). And you can cast it on objects, such as an arrow, and the shoot it at peoples feet. OH...and speaking of touch attacks... Command can be used to make an enemy surrender instantly....just touch him and say "surrender". One word command that must be obeyed...and no save.

Except... in 2nd Ed you can't just 'multiclass' at will like in later editions. You don't get to pick your classes as you go.

Multi-class characters must start that way, and it's an option only available to non-humans.

Humans can Dual-class, but it's got restrictions. If he dual classes from thief, he temporarily shelves his thief abilities, and starts anew at level 1 with a brand new class. He only gets his thieving skills back once he surpasses the original level.

And this, of course, is only assuming the DM uses these rules.

[Jay R]

Are you using your hiding and sneaking abilities to case out the enemies before the melee? Are you stealing their magic items before the battle starts?

A Thief is less useful in combat than other builds, because he's more useful out of it. Focus on being the best sneak and don't worry about being a lesser melee fighter.

Also, get hidden for melee and focus on sneak attacks, pickpocketing, and other dirty tricks. Note that if you pick the pocket of an enemy who is currently engaged with the fighters, then he can't do anything about it even if he notices you.

And when possible, get non-fighting magic items (except for the wepon used in sneak attacks, of course). You want a ring of invisibility, or an elven cloak, or gloves of dexterity.

Get out of the line of fire, and be the best Thief, not the worst Fighter.

[paigeoliver]

Second edition classes are not even remotely balanced with each other than the thief is the worst one. If you actually try to use your thief abilities then you end up dead. If you try to fight in front with the fighters then you end up dead. Your combat role in any tough battle should be that of an archer who guards the wizard.

At least you are playing second edition where you can specialize your points into a couple of areas and actually have a decent chance of using those skills. 1st Edition and BECMI thieves were not actually capable of surviving long enough for their skills to be reliable if they ever actually used them.

I would suggest talking to the GM and seeing if you can retcon your character into a dual class one, Ex-Fighter 7, Thief 8. Your ability scores would have allowed for it. It keeps you in the same role but makes you a little bit more combat effective. If not, then find a new game, as even with that change you would still have the weakest character at the table.

[Zephyr8644]

Hey Guys thanks for the support with all the ideas and other ways of being helpful, I ended up taking with my Dm and he knows how the party has been a bit greedy with the items and how he can't wait till the magic boosting items are destroyed as it is hard to balance the encounters and talked to me about Dual classing to which i reply that i wasn't comfortable losing my thief ability's and if i did get a wish i would probably wish to be a mage/thief rather then a fighter. they also talked about a items that would help me out and the Ranger player prob won't share the Strength items until they have been identified. I will see about carrying the magic books for the mage rather then selling him the custom bag of haversack and now its all up to when we play our next session to see how the pieces will fall.

[Dallion80]

I hope it gets better for your thief.

[CE DM]

Hey Guys thanks for the support with all the ideas and other ways of being helpful, I ended up taking with my Dm and he knows how the party has been a bit greedy with the items and how he can't wait till the magic boosting items are destroyed as it is hard to balance the encounters and talked to me about Dual classing to which i reply that i wasn't comfortable losing my thief ability's and if i did get a wish i would probably wish to be a mage/thief rather then a fighter. they also talked about a items that would help me out and the Ranger player prob won't share the Strength items until they have been identified. I will see about carrying the magic books for the mage rather then selling him the custom bag of haversack and now its all up to when we play our next session to see how the pieces will fall.

Glad to hear it

...they aren't as bad as some are saying, there were issues & you & the DM both see them, so...to the future. Happy gaming!