[3.5/PF]10th level Spells; horrible PC death enough...?

[Aotrs Commander]

A while ago (over a year wow!) I was trying to create some 10th level spells for the campaign-end boss of my Rise of the Runelords camapign. As we're getting close to the point we're ready to start, I have actually sat down and wrote some up ready.

I wouldn't mind a second or subsequent pair of eyes going over them, to see any obvious glaring flaws or whether they seem good enough for such an exalted position.

(And perhaps indulge in some collective manical laughter at the fate of my poor PCs or whatever...)

Admantine Body
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

This spell transforms your body into living adamantine, which grants you several powerful resistances and abilities.

You gain damage reduction 20/Adamantine. You are immune to blindness, critical hits, ability score damage, deafness, disease, drowning, poison, stunning, and all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration, because you have no physiology or respiration while this spell is in effect. You take only half damage from acid and fire of all kinds.

You gain a +8 enhancement bonus to your Strength score, but you take a -2 penalty to Dexterity as well (to a minimum Dexterity score of 1), and your speed is reduced to half normal. You have have no arcane spell failure chance. You cannot drink (and thus can’t use potions) or play wind instruments.

Your unarmed attacks deal damage equal to a greatclub sized for you (D8 for Small characters or D10 for Medium characters), and you are considered armed when making unarmed attacks.

Your weight increases by a factor of ten, causing you to sink in water like a stone. However, you could survive the crushing pressure and lack of air at the bottom of the ocean—at least until the spell duration expires.

This spell cannot be dispelled (except for you dismissing it), but can be removed by Break Enchantment, Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish (or similar effects, e.g. Dispel Magic True) or by Remove Curse if the caster level is at least as high as Adamantine Body’s caster level.

Arcane Material Component: A small piece of adamantine (worth 200gp)

Dispel Magic True
Abjuration
Level: Clr 10, Sor/Wiz 10
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: Up to two creatures, objects or magical effects/level, no two of which can be more than 60 ft. apart

Each creature, object or magical effect targeted by this spell is affected as with a targeted Dispel Magic, except that the maximum caster level on your dispel check is +30 instead of +10.

Additionally, Dispel Magic True has a chance to dispel any effect that Remove Curse or Break Enhantment can remove, even if Dispel Magic can’t dispel that effect.

Flesh to Stone, Mass
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates; SR: Yes

Subjects which fail their Fortiude save, turn into a mindless, inert statue along with all its carried gear. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.

Material Component: Lime, water, and earth.

Invert Matter
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half and see text; SR: No

This spell transforms a tiny quantity of matter to anti-matter, causing a massive explosion.

All creatures and unattended objects (including terrain and buildings) within the radius of the spell take 2D6 damage per caster level (maximum 40D6); a successful Reflex save halves the damage. Anything within 5’R of the target point does not receive a saving throw and the damage is untyped.

Note that this spell will destroy the surrounding ground; substances less strong than stone will be destroyed completely, creating a hemispherical crater of 20’ depth at the centre; stone or metal will be destroyed to a shallower crater of 10’ depth at the centre; creatures not flying take falling damage appropriate to the distance fallen. (Note that ground of exceptional strength – e.g. adamantine – will not be appeciably affected by this spell.)

Stone to Flesh, Mass
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: One petrified creature or cylinder of stone (from 1 ft. to 3 ft. in diameter and up to 10 ft. long)/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object); see text; SR: Yes

This spell restores petrified creatures to their normal state, restoring life and goods. A creature must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to survive the process. Any petrified creature, regardless of size, can be restored.

The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone.

Material Component: A pinch of earth and a drop of blood.

[Goaty14]

Other than True Dispel Magic not destroying your ph@t l00tz, what makes it better than Mordenkainen's Disjunction? As a downside, this one still makes you roll to succeed.

Can Adamantine body use an Adamantine weapon/armor as the focus instead? The text implies so, but RAW...

Invert Matter: "5'R" = 5 ft Radius?

[jqavins]

They're cool, superporweful spells, and I don't see anything inherently wrong with them, though I'm sure there are abuse potentials I haven't yet found. On the other hand, if there's some clever method that boosts a super power spell to a super-duper powerful effect, is it really abuse?

My issue with tenth level spells in general is this: anything that a Wish or Miracle can either duplicate is underpowered. And that means damn near everything is underpowered.

One particular comment:

Stone to Flesh, Mass...

You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone.

First, why is there a minimum size to the cylinder? "Oh no! The animated statues attacking us are too slender, fitting within a cylinder only 10 inches across, so my Mass Stone to Flesh spell won't work! We're all gonna DIE!!!"

[Aotrs Commander]

Other than True Dispel Magic not destroying your ph@t l00tz, what makes it better than Mordenkainen's Disjunction? As a downside, this one still makes you roll to succeed.

Targeted, so it doesn't dispel everything, which means you, for instance, can target a load of rabid adventurers without worrying about your own gear; plus its long range, not close. (Otherwise, this is just flat better than the Epic Superb Dispelling. Though we're using PF's version of disjunction, which means it only suppresses.)

Can Adamantine body use an Adamantine weapon/armor as the focus instead? The text implies so, but RAW...

Material component, not focus. So you could use it, if you wanted to destroy it.

Spoiler: RotRL endboss

Show

And Karzoug the Claimer, the One What Wrote The Spell, doesn't use admantine weapons - he's got some far better gear - and is a wizard, so wouldn't have seen the need for that in any case.

Invert Matter: "5'R" = 5 ft Radius?

Yeah, that'll be my Rolemaster roots showing again.

My issue with tenth level spells in general is this: anything that a Wish or Miracle can either duplicate is underpowered. And that means damn near everything is underpowered.

Eh. Wish's power lies it flexibility, not is actual power of effects; in terms of power of those effects, it's good, but not even close to unsurpassed (only up to 8th level spells, for instance). It cannot duplicate any of these spells except for maybe Mass Stone to Flesh (and only in the sense it could remove petrification from one creature per level). (And, as we're on PF XP components => GP, expensive to throw around...) At least not without hitting the "DM fiat" level (and that, in my games, at least, is not a good idea to try and abuse).

One particular comment:First, why is there a minimum size to the cylinder? "Oh no! The animated statues attacking us are too slender, fitting within a cylinder only 10 inches across, so my Mass Stone to Flesh spell won't work! We're all gonna DIE!!!"

That's the area of effect of Stone the Flesh, you just get one per level.

Actually, the fault lies in the Stone to Flesh spell, whose description I just copy-pasted and then pluralised. It actually doesn't technically even let you target Stone Golems by a strict reading of the text (a stone golem is neither a petrified creature, nor an object) and even though you can, the effect is has (loses its DR) is not turning it into a flesh golem like this spell says it does. I probably ought to do a 3.Aotrs revision to that spell, actually...

[gooddragon1]

Adamantine body may have an unwritten effect here in that your natural attacks bypass hardness up to 20. I feel like it doesn't go far enough though, some possible suggestions:
+burrow speed
+weapons held become adamantine
+add powerful build
+cold halving

Dispel also doesn't give much extra...
+Creates an area where the effect repeats on anything entering it for duration of ? (1 rd per lvl? 1d4+1 rounds? 1 minute fixed?)
+effect reduces durations even if unsuccessful if within certain amount needed for dispel (maybe half, maybe x effective cl, ...)
+Still dispel low level spells if within certain amount of cl

Just some ideas.

Note: missed the part about dispelling adamantine body...

[rferries]

I like all these spells but the vast majority would simply be 9th-level spells, IMHO.

Adamantine Body - shapechange is strictly better (albeit already a broken spell). Bump up the duration to one hour/level at the very least.

Dispel Magic, True - I saw a similar version of this that was listed as merely 8th level. Excluding friendly targets is great, but not as great as the automatic success of mage's disjunction.

Flesh to Stone/Stone to Flesh, Mass - wail of the banshee is the best comparison... not sure if being a ranged spell makes this worthy of being 10th level.

Invert Matter - this is the only one that I would say is definitely 10th level, due to the no-save clause for the central area.

All in all great work!

[Aotrs Commander]

I like all these spells but the vast majority would simply be 9th-level spells, IMHO.

Adamantine Body - shapechange is strictly better (albeit already a broken spell). Bump up the duration to one hour/level at the very least.

But you can dispel Shapechange. The "no-dispel" clause is really what Admanatine Body's strength is supposed to be. (As - very DEFINITELY in our group - everything that can cast Dispel WILL, and as often as possible.) (Mr Boss has loaded two of Dispel Magic Trues...!)

The other option is to add "can't be disjoined" to it.

Dispel Magic, True - I saw a similar version of this that was listed as merely 8th level. Excluding friendly targets is great, but not as great as the automatic success of mage's disjunction.

Only if you have room to cast it and not catch yourself, though.

Though gooddragon1's suggestion about a repeat (though I'd make it over maybe the next caster level/5 rounds) might not be a bad idea. And perhaps make it automatic on say, spells and effects of 5th level or lower.

Flesh to Stone/Stone to Flesh, Mass - wail of the banshee is the best comparison... not sure if being a ranged spell makes this worthy of being 10th level.

We're using PF's Wail of the Banshee, which is damage, rather than SoD. (On the basis we agreed that there is a small chance it might one day get USED, as one one side of the screen it's a potential TPK - climatic battles aside - and on the other, anything worth using it on is almost certainly going to make its save¹.) Otherwsie, I was simply going off the usual +3 spell level to make it mass logic. (After all, 10th level-plus spell slots were intended to be just for metamagic.)

Invert Matter - this is the only one that I would say is definitely 10th level, due to the no-save clause for the central area.

All in all great work!

*tips helmet*



¹We have my Defiant templete, which basically makes boss-fights A Thing (when you have 6 to 8 PCs), where each application gives them a reroll (at the cost of effectively a negative level) or the expendature of a full tank of hit points (which they get one of per template application) to effectively Iron Heart Surge off anything they don't like. SoDs are not useless, then, but better saved as finishers or something to wear them down.

[noob]

But you can dispel Shapechange. The "no-dispel" clause is really what Admanatine Body's strength is supposed to be. (As - very DEFINITELY in our group - everything that can cast Dispel WILL, and as often as possible.) (Mr Boss has loaded two of Dispel Magic Trues...!)

The other option is to add "can't be disjoined" to it.



Only if you have room to cast it and not catch yourself, though.

Though gooddragon1's suggestion about a repeat (though I'd make it over maybe the next caster level/5 rounds) might not be a bad idea. And perhaps make it automatic on say, spells and effects of 5th level or lower.



We're using PF's Wail of the Banshee, which is damage, rather than SoD. (On the basis we agreed that there is a small chance it might one day get USED, as one one side of the screen it's a potential TPK - climatic battles aside - and on the other, anything worth using it on is almost certainly going to make its save¹.) Otherwsie, I was simply going off the usual +3 spell level to make it mass logic. (After all, 10th level-plus spell slots were intended to be just for metamagic.)



*tips helmet*



¹We have my Defiant templete, which basically makes boss-fights A Thing (when you have 6 to 8 PCs), where each application gives them a reroll (at the cost of effectively a negative level) or the expendature of a full tank of hit points (which they get one of per template application) to effectively Iron Heart Surge off anything they don't like. SoDs are not useless, then, but better saved as finishers or something to wear them down.

Jormengad made something quite similar to your template and it is called elite creatures.
It caps the damage a single attack can make to the creature and it also makes them able to sacrifice hp to get rid of effects that would incapacitate them or would be close to doing that(such as the dust of sneezing and choking which is a really powerful offensive magical item as long as you manage to be far when it is spread).

[nonsi]

.
The only spell that truly stands out in power here is Invert Matter.
I second the notion that Admantine Body should have the 'can't be disjoined' clause to be 10th level worthy.

Note: not trying to convince anyone, but I think that Miracle and Wish are 10th level appropriate.

[Cosi]

I don't understand why any of these couldn't be 9th level spells. invert matter is also bad design. It's a damage spell, it should be a damn evocation. Making it transmutation is just contributing to Transmutation Bloat for no reason. The entire point of having schools was that each of them had some things it couldn't do.

[Aotrs Commander]

I don't understand why any of these couldn't be 9th level spells.

Because I want tenth level spells for the BBEG's 10th level spell slots. (Because epic spells are a joke, and I want something more memorable for the adventure-path ending climax than boring old metamagic'd spells.)

invert matter is also bad design. It's a damage spell, it should be a damn evocation. Making it transmutation is just contributing to Transmutation Bloat for no reason. The entire point of having schools was that each of them had some things it couldn't do.

Invert Matter is transmutation because a) the BBEG is a transmuter and b) Invert Matter sounded marginally less too-technical than Transmute Matter to Antimatter; and that is just a logical extension of (say) Transmute Rock to Lava, which is an existant 9th level transmutation damage spell.

So, yeah, maybe it is transmutation bloat if you consider that in the game world there are now five 10th level spells, four of which are transmutation; but considering they were made, by, y'know, an epic-level transmuter, I feel that to be perfectly fine.

(And if I do run a sequel campaign at 17th to epic (like there is a slim chance of me doing), previous experience says things will get so silly anyway, it kind of doesn't matter..)

But if you want to suggest some 10th level transmutation spell ideas suitable for a combat encounter, please be my guest; the more spells the merrier.

[Malachei]

I don't understand why any of these couldn't be 9th level spells.

I think so, too. With the exception of Mass Flesh to Stone, which fits the Mass adjustment (Hold Monster, 5th -> Mass Hold Monster, 9th). It is also harder to protect against than Hold Monster (Mind Blank) or Wail of the Banshee (Death Ward).

Compare Invert Matter to Maw of Chaos, which is also untyped, uncapped, no save to reduce the damage, lasts for 1 round per level, plus has a Will-save rider that is hard to be immune to (daze). I think the ability to damage buildings and the environment is not compensating for this. Granted, Maw of Chaos can be considered a benchmark.

invert matter is also bad design. It's a damage spell, it should be a damn evocation. Making it transmutation is just contributing to Transmutation Bloat for no reason. The entire point of having schools was that each of them had some things it couldn't do.

I think it perfectly fits Transmutation and the theme of the school, e.g. disintegrate.

Even though I agree that Evocation gets even more nerfed with all the damage spells in other schools (e.g. maw of chaos, the orbs, etc.). Especially the Orbs are an issue, as many builds focus on stacking metamagic on the Orbs. In my campaign, I've changed the Orb line to Evocation and SR:Yes.

Because I want tenth level spells for the BBEG's 10th level spell slots. (Because epic spells are a joke, and I want something more memorable for the adventure-path ending climax than boring old metamagic'd spells.)

Then make them stronger, which should serve your purpose, as well (making the BBEG memorable).

[ericgrau]

Adamantine Body: I'd take a look at Constructs and consider adding more immunities. It could use a power bump as a mainly defensive spell. Not many casters will find it worth it to attack with it. I don't think comparing it to optimized shapechange is fair, but it should at least give better protection than shapechanging into a solar. Dispel immunity does help, but it's only partway there.

True Dispel Magic: Looks like chain greater dispel magic plus a little better. The power is right. No style, but that's probably fine for dispel.

RE: What someone said about disjunction. This has a larger area. Not only does it save your phat lootz, it saves all your phat lootz, and yet dispels everything on the entire battlefield instead of just a portion. This is good for level 10.

Mass Flesh to Stone: Almost the same as chain flesh to stone. You could write "This spell functions like flesh to stone, excetp...". Doesn't require a feat, yeah, and long range. It's nothing special in design but it works, and it's cool to let high level characters do this.

Invert Matter: You're bringing too much science into my D&D, but otherwise it works. It's about the right level for a sort of area disintegrate. I would add:

"This spell also deals 1d6 or 2d6 damage out to a radius of 120 feet (reflex negates). The damage depends on the material destroyed, at the DM's disgression. 0 damage: cast in air. 1d6: soft material such as mud. 2d6: hard material such as stone. It also causes a momentary burst of wind at this same radius, equal to a hurricane: Only large or smaller creatures are affected and a DC 20 fort save negates. Most trees and wooden structures are knocked down."

I tried to bring some thematics into the spell without altering the power much. The rider effect is negligible against epic characters and even against armies it only wipes out the CR 1s. But it's still enough to knock some epic level mooks prone, maybe low fort save PCs, and do a little crowd control. If you want a little more power you could boost it further, but I think it's barely enough. Either way I still see this as useful dungeon tunneling. Making the damage fort save like disintegrate may also make it stronger, especially against undead and constructs.

Ten Thousand Blades: Looks good to me.

Bonfire: Annihilating a city is way too much even at level 10. I'd omit this one.

Sank's Eclipse: Looks good. I'd add that the radius is 10 miles from where it is originally cast.

---

They all work. Minus 1 someone else posted in the other thread, and to be fair he said level ?. The only major thing I have to say is it's time to make more of them. If you want to go even more over the top as some suggested that's fine since level 10 is crazier than crazy, just make sure your players are ready for the fight.

Then make them stronger, which should serve your purpose, as well (making the BBEG memorable).

Normally I'd agree. Why use something new when it's easier to use or tweak something existing? Except epic spells are harder to use than making up some 10s. And otherwise great points.