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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Wow. I don't know how I'll feel once the final episode hits. This is gonna be the Adventure Time finale all over, is it?
    Yeah, I'm not sure about this direction either. Kinda sounds like a fanfic premise.
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  2. - Top - End - #992
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    Default Re: My Little Pony XCIX: Leakier Than A Changeling Bathtub!

    I mean. It had to end sometime.

    Not every show is The Simpsons, able to keep going from shear momentum well after it should have ended for so long that it actually loops back around to decent enough to go on it's own at least twice.
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    Default Re: My Little Pony XCIX: Leakier Than A Changeling Bathtub!

    *sigh*

    Nope. What, ten hours of so of play, following all the advice given and trying again, and I can't even beat Italy one on one. (Well, actually no, it's worse than that, I had Greece on my side.) Which I did 'cos one of the folk reckoned Italy was a liability as an ally (and I am trying to not get overshadowed by allies and so get stuff I want this time), but no. Can't even manage that.

    The only things I've managed otside focus tree evens was annexing Hungary.

    I just... Can't see what I'm doing wrong. I mean, I'm not stupid, or generally even that bad at this sort of game. I've been following lots of advice but, as soon as it comes to the actual war... Nothing I do seems to work. I can only think I must be fundementally mis-using the battle planner or something. I don't get it, I really don't, and it's really disheartening.

  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure about this direction either. Kinda sounds like a fanfic premise.
    It's because it is a new direction. Nothing for at least three seasons has signposted this development, so it is unearned and the characters are in-credible in their roles.

  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I mean. It had to end sometime.
    Not every show is The Simpsons, able to keep going from shear momentum well after it should have ended for so long that it actually loops back around to decent enough to go on it's own at least twice.
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    It's because it is a new direction. Nothing for at least three seasons has signposted this development, so it is unearned and the characters are in-credible in their roles.
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    I'm aware the show has to end sometime. Heck, I was an advocate of ending the series like... three seasons ago.

    Zim hits it pretty close. Specifically, I'm not buying the idea that Celestia and Luna are going to retire and leave a country's operations in the hooves of someone still young (and neurotic when stressed). Are the alicorn sisters still going to raise and lower the sun and moon after they leave the throne? Also, Luna has only returned from banishment for about... maybe 2 years? She's retiring already? As Zim said, this isn't anything that had a build up so it just doesn't feel right to me. Twilight as the princess of Friendship at least had a couple seasons building up to it. At present she has those duties AND is running a school. Gonna toss the crown of the country on her on top of all that? What time does she have for that?

    Suddenly, hello now you get to be a bureaucrat! Cause that's what all little girls want after becoming a princess?
    Last edited by DigoDragon; 2019-03-11 at 07:08 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #996
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    There is no development that will leave Twilight not neurotic when stressed. There is no point at which she will be fit to rule, whether her friends manage her or not (which they should not be expected or obligated to). This was not true prior to seasons 6 - 8, which overplayed her neurosis to the point of Flanderization. But they did. And now we are stuck with a characterization that makes the story direction in-credible.

  7. - Top - End - #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
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    I'm aware the show has to end sometime. Heck, I was an advocate of ending the series like... three seasons ago.

    Zim hits it pretty close. Specifically, I'm not buying the idea that Celestia and Luna are going to retire and leave a country's operations in the hooves of someone still young (and neurotic when stressed). Are the alicorn sisters still going to raise and lower the sun and moon after they leave the throne? Also, Luna has only returned from banishment for about... maybe 2 years? She's retiring already? As Zim said, this isn't anything that had a build up so it just doesn't feel right to me. Twilight as the princess of Friendship at least had a couple seasons building up to it. At present she has those duties AND is running a school. Gonna toss the crown of the country on her on top of all that? What time does she have for that?

    Suddenly, hello now you get to be a bureaucrat! Cause that's what all little girls want after becoming a princess?
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    I agree it should've ended already. Personally I think it should've had Crusaders of the Lost Mark as the series Finale because that was downright the best episode in Season 5. There were other good episodes but The Cutie Re-Mark was really badly done.

    Either way, Season 5 would've worked nicely as a sort of 'epilogue' season. And I suppose I would write it like that. Tie up loose ends, and have things become more and more peaceful. With the climax being the CMC getting their cutie marks.

    It would work better as a vacation rather than retirement though. Like 'I want to go out and travel. I haven't gone out and just explored for over a thousand years. You can rule til I get back. I won't be gone more then a century. Or maybe two.'


    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    There is no development that will leave Twilight not neurotic when stressed. There is no point at which she will be fit to rule, whether her friends manage her or not (which they should not be expected or obligated to). This was not true prior to seasons 6 - 8, which overplayed her neurosis to the point of Flanderization. But they did. And now we are stuck with a characterization that makes the story direction in-credible.
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    She already rules, or did Seasons 6-8 completely undo the stuff we saw with Princess Spike and Season 5?
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  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
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    It would work better as a vacation rather than retirement though. Like 'I want to go out and travel. I haven't gone out and just explored for over a thousand years. You can rule til I get back. I won't be gone more then a century. Or maybe two.'
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    I definitely agree with this, I could buy Celestia and Luna needing a vacation to unwind much easier than I could them just leaving Twilight and company in charge indefinitely


    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
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    She already rules, or did Seasons 6-8 completely undo the stuff we saw with Princess Spike and Season 5?
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    Twilight was in charge of a major, city-wide convention in Princess Spike, which is a long way from ruling anything. Saying that Twilight was ruling anything there is a bit like saying the person in charge of Gen Con is the ruler of Indianapolis
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  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson View Post
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    Twilight was in charge of a major, city-wide convention in Princess Spike, which is a long way from ruling anything. Saying that Twilight was ruling anything there is a bit like saying the person in charge of Gen Con is the ruler of Indianapolis
    Well. More like saying the chair of the World Economic Forum is the ruler of Davos, Switzerland. Which is all but true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Well. More like saying the chair of the World Economic Forum is the ruler of Davos, Switzerland. Which is all but true.
    Right, but the only credible ruler is Cadance. Her biggest worry is that she's bored.

    Either that or Flim and Flam. In a handful of years transformed Ponyville into an industrialized society.

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    Default Re: My Little Pony XCIX: Leakier Than A Changeling Bathtub!

    Quote Originally Posted by Schismatic View Post
    Right, but the only credible ruler is Cadance. Her biggest worry is that she's bored.
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    And apparently getting her daughter kidnapped.


    Either that or Flim and Flam. In a handful of years transformed Ponyville into an industrialized society.
    This is not a good thing. Industrialization is a brutal and brutalizing process, not to mention messy.

  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Default Re: My Little Pony XCIX: Leakier Than A Changeling Bathtub!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson View Post
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    I definitely agree with this, I could buy Celestia and Luna needing a vacation to unwind much easier than I could them just leaving Twilight and company in charge indefinitely




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    Twilight was in charge of a major, city-wide convention in Princess Spike, which is a long way from ruling anything. Saying that Twilight was ruling anything there is a bit like saying the person in charge of Gen Con is the ruler of Indianapolis
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    Except under her authority there was also things like trees being trimmed, water line work being done, even where people were allowed to play games. That's all basic ruling stuff. Not to mention the fact that the whole meeting was a pan-Equestria meeting between mayors.
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  13. - Top - End - #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    And apparently getting her daughter kidnapped.



    This is not a good thing. Industrialization is a brutal and brutalizing process, not to mention messy.
    Well, yeah. But Cadance is clearly the only real adult. Also industrialization is necessarily messy. A transformation of productive forces of society.

    I mean think about what that alternative future means. Flim and Flam industrializes Ponyville extensively. In every other alternative future there is otherwise a brutal, authoritarian monarchy that maintains at best cottage industry or a mobilized economy for a war effort.

    Celestia is no less likely to mobilize the Ponyville economy into an industrialized society in the war against Sombra. So one could make the argument that regardless of Equestria's future, mass industrialization is a pre-determined fate regardless of who is at helm. And who would you rather in charge of that process? A Hobbesian authoritarian monarchy (at best), or a Flim and Flam who apparently has defeated Equestria's enemies through industrial development--on the basis of consumption by a body-politic rather than a war effort of a professional political caste?

    Like if Flim and Flam can deliver a space age without requiring a gross, overarching military threat, surely it can't be that bad?

  14. - Top - End - #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    *sigh*

    Nope. What, ten hours of so of play, following all the advice given and trying again, and I can't even beat Italy one on one. (Well, actually no, it's worse than that, I had Greece on my side.) Which I did 'cos one of the folk reckoned Italy was a liability as an ally (and I am trying to not get overshadowed by allies and so get stuff I want this time), but no. Can't even manage that.

    The only things I've managed otside focus tree evens was annexing Hungary.

    I just... Can't see what I'm doing wrong. I mean, I'm not stupid, or generally even that bad at this sort of game. I've been following lots of advice but, as soon as it comes to the actual war... Nothing I do seems to work. I can only think I must be fundementally mis-using the battle planner or something. I don't get it, I really don't, and it's really disheartening.

    Play Australia, invade Sicily and Sardinia and get bogged down in perpetual fighting over Calabria. That's what I did. I did manage to carve up huge chunks of North Africa and take Rome for myself.

    Can I just suggest that CAS and encryption/decryption bonuses are incredibly powerful? Plus paratroopers with certain army doctrines. I love paras. Paratroopers is basically how I took over the Italian peninsula mid-game with such a small military. The important thing is if you want to save time, with the European theatre try assigning aircraft directly to armies rather than manually selecting zones--all you have to do then is insure that airfields become major targets, or you mass build them.

    Also, you do know how army widths work, right? That's probably the most important thing. Depending on army doctrine you generally want to aim at 10, 20 and 40 widths. Early game army experience should be used to maximise the number of soldiers you can simultaneously bring into a fight at once.

    I actually like creating 10 width columns of soldiers as fast moving, low number divisions equipped with medical tents, engineers, air and antitank and recon, with a strong artillery and mechanized infantry + medium tanks for 'offshoot' campaigns like taking African territory.

    I reserve the 20 width divisions for fighting Japan and fighting in the European theatre.

    10 Width columns use less supplies, makes it easy to exploit weaknesses in the enemy line, and can run rings against slower moving forces. Creating a pocket salient and cutting off 200,000 enemy soldiers from supplies is doable and just as effective with a fraction of those numbers and materiel so long as you have the pre-requisite divisions. And assuming you can rebuke certain parts of the encirclement breakout attempt through overwhelming CAS support, letting the rest of your forces dig in, they can inflict ridiculous casualties on the enemy.
    Last edited by Schismatic; 2019-03-12 at 04:59 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schismatic View Post
    Well, yeah. But Cadance is clearly the only real adult. Also industrialization is necessarily messy. A transformation of productive forces of society.

    I mean think about what that alternative future means. Flim and Flam industrializes Ponyville extensively. In every other alternative future there is otherwise a brutal, authoritarian monarchy that maintains at best cottage industry or a mobilized economy for a war effort.

    Celestia is no less likely to mobilize the Ponyville economy into an industrialized society in the war against Sombra. So one could make the argument that regardless of Equestria's future, mass industrialization is a pre-determined fate regardless of who is at helm. And who would you rather in charge of that process? A Hobbesian authoritarian monarchy (at best), or a Flim and Flam who apparently has defeated Equestria's enemies through industrial development--on the basis of consumption by a body-politic rather than a war effort of a professional political caste?

    Like if Flim and Flam can deliver a space age without requiring a gross, overarching military threat, surely it can't be that bad?
    Why do you automatically consider industrialization to be good? Equestria is not Earth, things are already much better then over here. Industrialization isn't needed at all, and they've already surpassed human achievements in, well, honestly I'm having trouble coming up with stuff that we've done that actually is impressive in comparison. The Internet I guess. But that still not that impressive when put beside literal time travel and weather control.

    As for a space age, they literally control the movement of the moon and sun. I'm not convinced there is a space to go to but if there is, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out without industrialization. Which for that matter, isn't really associated with the space age?
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2019-03-12 at 03:09 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Why do you automatically consider industrialization to be good? Equestria is not Earth, things are already much better then over here. Industrialization isn't needed at all, and they've already surpassed human achievements in, well, honestly I'm having trouble coming up with stuff that we've done that actually is impressive in comparison. The Internet I guess. But that still not that impressive when put beside literal time travel and weather control.

    As for a space age, they literally control the movement of the moon and sun. I'm not convinced there is a space to go to but if there is, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out without industrialization. Which for that matter, isn't really associated with the space age?
    Right, but why do you assume Equestria can't be good with electricity, computers, advanced scientific endeavour, modern medicine, the internal combustion engine? I mean my job in academia is made only possible through the late modern world, and because of my efforts the world is a better place--so it's less technology is bad, more humans require regulation of behaviour. There's nothing legitimately stopping a society achieving a utopian ideal. We just need to work for it. The whole premise of Equestria was that ponies themselves either make or break their society. A social awareness of one's personal responsibility to be other-regarding. That egoistic philosophy is fine, as long as that egoism is other-regarding.

    Whole thing of Rarity being this generous fashion pony that actively seeks to beautify the world, not merely ponies of a very specific social class as an example of that ethos.

    Researchers get paid stuff-all. They dedicate 10+ years to their studying the vagaries and physics of the universe and most will never earn a 6 figure salary. Yet there are still scientists... so pretending like there aren't good people in our dystopian, cyberpunk futures is wrong... it's quite literally a case of human greed being a facet of exploitation.

    Does anybody legitimately think Flim and Flam are awful? The whole Apple Farm 'scam' was the closest one could consider morally bankrupt--either that or their tonic show-wise, but then again only because the Apple family are kind of ridiculously stupid and bourgeois. Flim and Flam actually had a pretty good machine that would decrease wastage, increase productivity, allow more ponies to enjoy a product--and the only answer the Apple family had to that was emotionally blackmailed additional labour that is otherwise unsustainable without ponies of talent having to become farmers themselves simply to compete with a machine.

    The Industrial Revolution meant liberating societies from having to be underpaid, menial labourers simply to provide nutrition... and suffice it to say, it turned out for the better.

    So I'm not sure what the morality was meant to be. I don't know--refuse technological processes and ease of production in favour of slaving over primitive practices because love should be difficult and demanding? IDK.
    Last edited by Schismatic; 2019-03-12 at 04:26 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    And apparently getting her daughter kidnapped.
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    Gotta fulfill those contractual alicorn obligations of princess-in-distress. Flurry's simply ahead of the curve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schismatic View Post
    Does anybody legitimately think Flim and Flam are awful?
    Uh yeah, they are. They tried to con ponies with a medicinal cure-all that didn't actually do anything.
    Last edited by DigoDragon; 2019-03-12 at 05:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post


    Uh yeah, they are. They tried to con ponies with a medicinal cure-all that didn't actually do anything.
    Only because the Apple family itself enabled them. There does come a point where people (ponies) have to take responsibility for their actions. Moreover, I used this exact same event to argue them being at their most morally bankrupt.

    What if Flim and Flam legitimately believed the tonic worked? Then the whole morality of the episode is lost beyond 'don't be a sucker'. Which is a much healthier morality all things considered as it actually covers instances of snake oil salesponies who are simply misinformed. Surely it's not good enough to simply say; "Don't be intentionally manipulative..."--as opposed to saying; "Don't be intentionally manipulative, and try to educate yourself as much as humanly (equinely) possible as to acting in good faith."

    Even then we have real world examples of such practices. Swisse Group vitamins, for example. There is only so many hours in the day I have to argue with friends over their dietary intake of 'organic superfoods' that they pay exorbitant money for, for no real benefit that conventional supermarket and green grocers bought food that actually is better for them (with better industrial practices and more prosocial market dynamics, as well as just being cheaper to buy with often less total processing).

    Flim and Flam are no different than big pharma marketing Percocet for nebulously vague televised pain problems, and then markets meds dealing with opioid induced constipation, on primetime television in the same ad allocation.

    The moral duty of Equestria is either to increase public education, put in regulations against such things, or both (and ideally both). As it's much easier to assess 'good faith and praxis' as it is simply some nebulous commentary of 'honesty'.

    It wasn't that long ago when we prescribed copious amounts of gin to 'balance the humors'. I would not be morally bankrupt as a 'physician' back then telling a person to have glasses of gin to deal with their flu. It's both dry and wet, and makes the patient feel better! How is that not the perfect medicine for fever? That being said, tack on a few centuries and it's pretty obvious I was wrong and somebody should stop me prescribing gin to the sick and marketing it on tv as a curative tonic.

    It doesn't (shouldn't) matter how right I feel I am, clearly bad faith and praxis.

    There comes a point where the problems in the world are because people (ponies) are simply misinformed or wilfully blind, and unless you address that misinformation in a structuralist sense--then it's hardly anypony else's fault.

    Addressing it through, say, better scientific funding, regulation on human (equine) behaviour, and total scientific literacy.
    Last edited by Schismatic; 2019-03-12 at 07:42 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #1009
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    Default Re: My Little Pony XCIX: Leakier Than A Changeling Bathtub!

    Quote Originally Posted by Schismatic View Post
    Does anybody legitimately think Flim and Flam are awful?
    Yes, because they con-ponies at the end of the day, not Bill Gates or Richard Arkwright or something. They may have - but ultimately squander - any legitimate talents they have in a succession of quick-rich schemes, so yes, I think they are awful.

    Are the Apples also basically luddites? Yes, yes they are and AJ's stubborn streak is why she is my least favourite out of the Mane Six, because stubbornness to the point of willful stupidity is not a positive character trait.

    But that doesn't make Flim and Flim not exactly the same sort of sentient/sapient refuse that run the likes of EA or ActiBlizz. Et al.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-03-12 at 08:08 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schismatic View Post
    Only because the Apple family itself enabled them. There does come a point where people (ponies) have to take responsibility for their actions. Moreover, I used this exact same event to argue them being at their most morally bankrupt.
    I don't disagree that misinformed people should do their homework. Everyone has a responsibility to research what they buy into and ensure that they make informed decisions.

    Still doesn't excuse the Flim Flam brothers' actions. They are unrepentant opportunists that prey upon gullible ponies using charm and forceful sales tactics. They put up fronts that hamper anyone who tries to research the brothers' legitimacy. Even protagonists like Twilight and applejack have a difficult time figuring out their scams at first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Yes, because they con-ponies at the end of the day, not Bill Gates or Richard Arkwright or something. They may have - but ultimately squander - any legitimate talents they have in a succession of quick-rich schemes, so yes, I think they are awful.

    Are the Apples also basically luddites? Yes, yes they are and AJ's stubborn streak is why she is my least favourite out of the Mane Six, because stubbornness to the point of willful stupidity is not a positive character trait.

    But that doesn't make Flim and Flim not exactly the same sort of sentient/sapient refuse that run the likes of EA or ActiBlizz. Et al.
    Right, but Flim and Flam could easily have been captains of industry tomorrow and precisely be the mid/late 18th century-esque Bill Gates. It was legitimately the Apple family not only deciding against a pair of engineers' machine that would have solved all their problems and allowed for greater efficiency and enjoyment (and utiity) of their orchards, but then made a bet with them and the had to rely on exploitative labour practices to simply beat.

    It was almost an argument of being a wageslave (if not slave) owner is preferable to being a technologically sophisticated, efficient, adaptable land owner with an idea of fulfilling pony desires over simply wasteful ownership of land with dated, wasteful practices.

    The morality of early Flim and Flam was so broken, even the writers must have noticed and cranked up the stupid-evil factor of Flim and Flam in order not to cause a CD inducing headache in the viewer.

    Let's say that the reason for Flim and Flam's success in alternative future Equestria was because the Apple family failed, lost their farm, and F&F became that captain of industry no different from Bill Gates. What then? Sure, they would have still had the capacity to be con ponies--but would they still be awful if they had simply won that bet fair and square and became mega successful because they jumpstarted Equestria's technological basis into the early 20th century?

    I mean they have advanced earth-moving equipment in F&F future. Internal combustion engines. If F&F can do that in years, the utilitarian argument should be giving them a farm so they don't become con ponies.

    You can't compare F&F to Milo Minderbinder from Catch-22…
    Last edited by Schismatic; 2019-03-12 at 08:44 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    I don't disagree that misinformed people should do their homework. Everyone has a responsibility to research what they buy into and ensure that they make informed decisions.

    Still doesn't excuse the Flim Flam brothers' actions. They are unrepentant opportunists that prey upon gullible ponies using charm and forceful sales tactics. They put up fronts that hamper anyone who tries to research the brothers' legitimacy. Even protagonists like Twilight and applejack have a difficult time figuring out their scams at first.

    Right, but there is a realistic argument that Equestrian laws should never of allowed them to act like that. As I said above, if F&F legitimately believed in their tonic what is the social difference?

    Arguably they'd be no more morally despicable as the Apple family taking pride in using dated, wasteful, exploitative, backwards ideas to land management. Reducing the utility of their farm and in the abuse of local ponypower.

    Which is part and parcel of the cognitive dissonance you get in the first episode they make an appearance. After all, F&F wanted to enter a business agreement that they didn't bother haggling for. The Apple Family pretended like ponies lining up for a day just to get a wastefully produced tankard of cider is acceptable. Made a bet on their own accord and then out of guilt or sympathy conned the rest of the Mane 6 to perpetuate a cycle of bad land management for some nebulous morality of conservatism.

    Not exactly the morality kids should be learning.
    Last edited by Schismatic; 2019-03-12 at 09:17 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #1013
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    I've got the weirdest sense of Deja Vu.

    I could have sworn that we had this exact same argument a couple of years ago, when someone got confused at people disliking Flim and Flam because they were only doing what Entrepreneurs were supposed to do(turn a profit as number one priority) while completly failing to understand that people tend to hate people who make profits in unethical or immoral ways.

    Flim and Flam basically tried to steal cider-apples from the Apple family--they fast talked Applejack into letting them take some of her apples to demonstrate how the cider press worked and then tried to sell that Cider and got pissy when AJ pointed out that they didn't pay for the apples it was made of and thus couldn't sell it.

    Thy then offered a blatantly unfair deal to the Apples and after Granny Smith's damned pride got them into a wager, the Flimflam brothers cheated when they realized that agreeing to let AJ's friends help meant that they were gonna lose, destroyed countless Apple Family owned trees in the process and ruining perfectly good cider apples which went to waste because the cheating cider was inedible, and after they won the contest(by cheating) they immediatly tried to go back on the deal--instead of the Cider Rights for the Season, the agreed upon stakes, they tried to take the Apple family farm out from under them.

    Considering that they logically still would have had to pay for the Apples' apples if they'd only taken the Cider sale rights, it's not hard to see why they'd try to seize the farm.

    People don't like them because they scam and cheat and steal to turn a profit.

    Their next appearance has them as near-literal snake-oil salesmen.

    A more recent appearance has them as legitimate businessmen and still running a scam--a Friendship School that charges out the nose for each lesson and the lessons are literally the lessons from Twilight's school edited down to half the page-count. I mean, I don't think that one was technically illegal but it's certainly unethical.

    I bet their next appearance is gonna be them trying to sell Ponyville a Monorail.
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  24. - Top - End - #1014
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    From all their collective apperences, you know that "sustainable growth" and "not demolishing the environment" are not part of Flim and Flam's vocabulary. They are not interested in progress, they are only interested in making a quick buck. They would be, given a sliver of a chance, the ones who would be actually implementing the sort of things the compiuter game industry is getting its colelctive hand slapped over (predatory business practices, lootboxes).

    They are NOT entrapenuers and models of ideal business people, nor of inventors, they are confidence tricksters, regardless of what talents they might have that they use to support their con-artistry. Could they be such if they were different people? Yes. And Jubilee could be a fracking monsterous killing machine if she was a different person, but that's not the case is it?

    Flim and Flam aren't Richard Arkwright, though; they are closer to Dr. William Whitney Christmas, the guy that designed the Christmas Bullet, arguably the worst aircraft ever made, who did it basically to get the contract for the money based on nothing more than fancy and blagging (dude essentially smooth-talked his way into a profitable (for him) military commission without any actual credentials - he even told the engineers he kept all the plans in his head when they asked him for them to start working on it). With the exception being that Flim and Flam are marginally better in that they haven't essentially murdered two people yet.



    Equestria is already industrialised, as we have seen both heavy construction gear and hydroelectic dams, a railway system, sewing machines, film projectors, airships, electric lights, fridges, flashlights... In fact a very great deal of stuff that would not be found out of place in, say, Murdoch Mysteries, set at the turn of the 19th to 20th century. Heck, I point out to you that one has to go barely as far back as my parent's generation to when the milkman was still using a horse and cart, before TV and large chunks of Equestrian magic/technology level could easily pass off as into even the 50s in a lot of ways. And we know from Princess Spike that the population of Equestria could easily be well into the tens of millions and could be substantially higher.

    I mean, they have a weather FACTORY; factories were not even a thing until the industrial revolution. (And I spent three frag-damn YEARS on the tedium that was the agricultural and industrial revolution, I know...)

    Make no mistake, Equestria is not a medieval or faux-medieval fantasy society; despite the prevalence of magic at the fore, their technology is advanced; not to the digital era, yet, certainly, but WELL into the industrial, maybe last industrial peroid.



    Those seven seconds of the Flim and Flam future show a sky choked with pollution, coming from numerous factories - note how the landscape is not vibrant, but washed-out and muddy? Yeah, this isn't a "yay progress" scene, this is the sort of ecological disaster a Captain Planet villain would love. Rampant industrialisation is not a good thing, as one only has to look at what humasn have managed to do to know that.

  25. - Top - End - #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Make no mistake, Equestria is not a medieval or faux-medieval fantasy society; despite the prevalence of magic at the fore, their technology is advanced; not to the digital era, yet, certainly, but WELL into the industrial, maybe last industrial peroid.
    Electronic circuits have been implied a few times over the show's run. It's possible only the commercial sector can afford them at present.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I bet their next appearance is gonna be them trying to sell Ponyville a Monorail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Equestria is already industrialised, as we have seen both heavy construction gear and hydroelectic dams, a railway system, sewing machines, film projectors, airships, electric lights, fridges, flashlights... In fact a very great deal of stuff that would not be found out of place in, say, Murdoch Mysteries, set at the turn of the 19th to 20th century. Heck, I point out to you that one has to go barely as far back as my parent's generation to when the milkman was still using a horse and cart, before TV and large chunks of Equestrian magic/technology level could easily pass off as into even the 50s in a lot of ways. And we know from Princess Spike that the population of Equestria could easily be well into the tens of millions and could be substantially higher.

    I mean, they have a weather FACTORY; factories were not even a thing until the industrial revolution. (And I spent three frag-damn YEARS on the tedium that was the agricultural and industrial revolution, I know...)

    Make no mistake, Equestria is not a medieval or faux-medieval fantasy society; despite the prevalence of magic at the fore, their technology is advanced; not to the digital era, yet, certainly, but WELL into the industrial, maybe last industrial peroid.
    It's probably worth noting that Equestria has managed this without an industrial reserve army to discipline labor, that is to say, with full employment.

  27. - Top - End - #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schismatic View Post
    Right, but why do you assume Equestria can't be good with electricity, computers, advanced scientific endeavour, modern medicine, the internal combustion engine? I mean my job in academia is made only possible through the late modern world, and because of my efforts the world is a better place--so it's less technology is bad, more humans require regulation of behaviour. There's nothing legitimately stopping a society achieving a utopian ideal. We just need to work for it. The whole premise of Equestria was that ponies themselves either make or break their society. A social awareness of one's personal responsibility to be other-regarding. That egoistic philosophy is fine, as long as that egoism is other-regarding.

    Whole thing of Rarity being this generous fashion pony that actively seeks to beautify the world, not merely ponies of a very specific social class as an example of that ethos.

    Researchers get paid stuff-all. They dedicate 10+ years to their studying the vagaries and physics of the universe and most will never earn a 6 figure salary. Yet there are still scientists... so pretending like there aren't good people in our dystopian, cyberpunk futures is wrong... it's quite literally a case of human greed being a facet of exploitation.

    Does anybody legitimately think Flim and Flam are awful? The whole Apple Farm 'scam' was the closest one could consider morally bankrupt--either that or their tonic show-wise, but then again only because the Apple family are kind of ridiculously stupid and bourgeois. Flim and Flam actually had a pretty good machine that would decrease wastage, increase productivity, allow more ponies to enjoy a product--and the only answer the Apple family had to that was emotionally blackmailed additional labour that is otherwise unsustainable without ponies of talent having to become farmers themselves simply to compete with a machine.

    The Industrial Revolution meant liberating societies from having to be underpaid, menial labourers simply to provide nutrition... and suffice it to say, it turned out for the better.

    So I'm not sure what the morality was meant to be. I don't know--refuse technological processes and ease of production in favour of slaving over primitive practices because love should be difficult and demanding? IDK.
    The have electricity, high level education, scientists, doctors, and yes, an internal combustion engine. Trains have been a thing since S1, and a hydroelectrical dam showed up in S2. The pegasi even have literal factories to manage the weather.

    All without the rampant industrilization that Flim and Flam would bring. Because it's not necessary. I mean, Flim and Flam are almost caricatures of harmful capitalism, of exploiting resources as quickly and ruthlessly as possible to make as much money as possible without regards to sustainability. They aren't Bill Gates, they are more like whalers, and the worst of fishermen, killing their own future profits to get as much as possible right now.

    Which means they aren't even that good of businessmen. Any business is almost guaranteed to be doomed, but they don't care, because they are all short term, and will immediately move to the next scheme, not caring the landscape might literally be on fire behind them.

    The truly infuriating thing is that there attitude is completely selfish and pretty stupid. Like you can turn a profit while still operating sustainably. But because you make less money in the short term so many people are all to willingly to screw over everyone just for that quick buck. Because god forbid they learn to be content with less or learn to live within their means, rather then always demanding more and more in excess.
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  28. - Top - End - #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    From all their collective apperences, you know that "sustainable growth" and "not demolishing the environment" are not part of Flim and Flam's vocabulary. They are not interested in progress, they are only interested in making a quick buck. They would be, given a sliver of a chance, the ones who would be actually implementing the sort of things the compiuter game industry is getting its colelctive hand slapped over (predatory business practices, lootboxes).

    They are NOT entrapenuers and models of ideal business people, nor of inventors, they are confidence tricksters, regardless of what talents they might have that they use to support their con-artistry. Could they be such if they were different people? Yes. And Jubilee could be a fracking monsterous killing machine if she was a different person, but that's not the case is it?

    Flim and Flam aren't Richard Arkwright, though; they are closer to Dr. William Whitney Christmas, the guy that designed the Christmas Bullet, arguably the worst aircraft ever made, who did it basically to get the contract for the money based on nothing more than fancy and blagging (dude essentially smooth-talked his way into a profitable (for him) military commission without any actual credentials - he even told the engineers he kept all the plans in his head when they asked him for them to start working on it). With the exception being that Flim and Flam are marginally better in that they haven't essentially murdered two people yet.



    Equestria is already industrialised, as we have seen both heavy construction gear and hydroelectic dams, a railway system, sewing machines, film projectors, airships, electric lights, fridges, flashlights... In fact a very great deal of stuff that would not be found out of place in, say, Murdoch Mysteries, set at the turn of the 19th to 20th century. Heck, I point out to you that one has to go barely as far back as my parent's generation to when the milkman was still using a horse and cart, before TV and large chunks of Equestrian magic/technology level could easily pass off as into even the 50s in a lot of ways. And we know from Princess Spike that the population of Equestria could easily be well into the tens of millions and could be substantially higher.

    I mean, they have a weather FACTORY; factories were not even a thing until the industrial revolution. (And I spent three frag-damn YEARS on the tedium that was the agricultural and industrial revolution, I know...)

    Make no mistake, Equestria is not a medieval or faux-medieval fantasy society; despite the prevalence of magic at the fore, their technology is advanced; not to the digital era, yet, certainly, but WELL into the industrial, maybe last industrial peroid.



    Those seven seconds of the Flim and Flam future show a sky choked with pollution, coming from numerous factories - note how the landscape is not vibrant, but washed-out and muddy? Yeah, this isn't a "yay progress" scene, this is the sort of ecological disaster a Captain Planet villain would love. Rampant industrialisation is not a good thing, as one only has to look at what humasn have managed to do to know that.
    Equestria has a confusing array of differing technologies of different eras. Without actual electricity, not late-industrial. Dirigibles is kind of weird, Pinkie uses a gyrocopter, and yet no telegram. The three signposts of the late-modern and the inevitably recession of the industrial boom of the mid 19th.

    Sure, as I said before--the writers decided stupid-evil with a hamfisted allegory to 'big business' all while neglecting the fact that clearly the FF brothers have a viable machine. The Apple family farm functions as practically a chartered company (the ability to consolidate commercial exclusive rights) which is already shady, but they can't even do their job. Flim and Flam couldn't sell cider to the town. Applejack literally lassos the barrel away even though clearly they can't even facilitate need that they have. So you have a family that has cornered trade and productive forces, can't meet demand, and refuses to allow competition that can.

    And for what actual reason? The thing is you need an industrial revolution in order to diversify the economic base.

    I mean the Industrial Revolution allowed the most fertile grounds for electricity grids and radio.

    Moreover, rampant industrialization isn't exactly a problem in comparison to yearly food riots. We have the capacity to correct human damages to the planet assuming the political will is there. But a failure of politics is not necessarily a failure of human ingenuity or necessarily consumption on its own.

    After all, the situation would be much worse if we simply got up to first and second generation coal powerplants and said; "About as much industry as we need." Imagine where we'd be if it wasn't for AC power supply? Only 38% of all civil powerplants run on coal. Imagine how awful the situation would be if we didn't make such astounding leaps in a relatively short amount of time?

    What's the alternative, here?
    Last edited by Schismatic; 2019-03-12 at 01:00 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schismatic View Post
    Equestria has a confusing array of differing technologies of different eras. Without actual electricity, not late-industrial. Dirigibles is kind of weird, Pinkie uses a gyrocopter, and yet no telegram. The three signposts of the late-modern and the inevitably recession of the industrial boom of the mid 19th.
    What Equestria has is not only technology comparable to the early 20th century, but also extreme concentration of its higher technologies in urban hubs (so no rural electrification - which, incidentally, was a government program in every country that did it. Universal provision of service is not profitable). So you see telephones in Manehattan, but not in Ponyville. It also has not developed much of its land, so you see large pockets of entirely pre-industrial modes of living. There is colonization (see: Appleloosa), but it is not extensive at all conceivable frontiers.

    And why not? As has been said over and over again, the needs of the economy as it exists do not require development of all that land, or its integration into the economy. The reason we have done so is because there is profit in it, but the profit motive, while important, seems not to rule the Equestrian economy.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-03-12 at 01:11 PM.

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    Applejack lassoed the Cider Barrel away because flim and flam made that cider with apples that belonged to the Apples without paying the apples for the Apples.

    AJ agreed to give some for the demonstration. She didn't agree to let them sell it and pocket the money.

    Furthermore: The quality of Cider is determined by the quality of the apples. The cider-Squeezy made good Cider because the Apples grew good cider-apples. Note that the cider was inedible after they turned off the quality control.

    And also note that they basically stole half an orchard's worth of apples from the apples and destroyed many of the trees becuase they didn't pay for the apples/trees and the cider made ended up inedible.

    Flim and Flam aren't a criticism of Big Business. They're con artists and scammers who show up whenever a con artist or scammer is needed. Them and Iron Will, but Iron Will is at least honest enough to cut his losses when he's been had.

    Note how Rarity, The Cakes, AJ's Farm, and countless other honest run businesses are depicted as being profitable, at least enough to stay open. Even Filthy Rich is, in the main timeline at least(EQGs is more ambigous) as having made his money in honest deals and givng producers a fair cut.

    The show ain't critical of business. IT's critical of unethical business practices.
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