That Damned Crab!

[Foeofthelance]

Help! I need to find this beastie right quick, where is it?

[Dr. Weasel]

Here it is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a

[Foeofthelance]

Thank you.

[TheOOB]

Why do I get the feeling that a a party is about to be punished by a "level-appropriate" encounter?

[Flawless]

That beast is CR 3!?!

You just have to compare it to an ogre to see how overpowered it is.

[DracoDei]

Hmm... mindless, and no ranged attack(and no hide/move silently to get in close before detected to make up for that) compared to the ogre... but still I beleive you may have a point there.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Maybe I should send your party flowers. Or at least the survivors.

Somebody's party must be the munchkins from hell.

[Flawless]

Hmm... mindless, and no ranged attack(and no hide/move silently to get in close before detected to make up for that) compared to the ogre... but still I beleive you may have a point there.

True, but 66 hp? Ac 19? 2 attacks +10 with d8+9 damage each? Not to forget it's an awesome grapple-machine. One hit, and you're history (impr. grab).
The only chance for a low level party (level 3 or 4) I see, is if the terrain is highly in favour of the PCs (e.g. they can take it down with ranged attacks before it can close).

[InkEyes]

That thing does 13.489 average damage with one hit? An average level 3 fighter with 10 con only has 16-17 hp! The designer who made this creature must have been surrounded with insane munchkins, or possibly a sadist.

[GimliFett]

I thought it was pre-3.5. 'Parently I was wrong. Wow. There was a lot of cool stuff in the Far Corner of the World series, but that crab must be the broken-est thing in it.

[Fax Celestis]

Be warned: do not advance That Damn Crab under any circumstances. Or give it class levels. Or make it anthropomorphic and allow a player to play it.

Anthropomorphic Damn Crabs with levels in Monk into Reaping Mauler are vicious and terrifying.

[Citizen Joe]

You know, its getting to be Stone Crab season in these parts... You just break off one claw and throw the crab back.

[Spiryt]

I thought it was pre-3.5. 'Parently I was wrong. Wow. There was a lot of cool stuff in the Far Corner of the World series, but that crab must be the broken-est thing in it.

I would give it CR 5. Or maybe 6, but I'm not good at it. Then it should be OK.
Beacuse it's quite impressive giant crab...

I could talk about it's grapple modifier, Constitution score, and Powerful Claws (Ex), but much simpler question is - since when any 7HD monsters are CR3 ?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Guys, guys, the crab isn't that hard. You just have to hit its weak point FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!

Out of curiosity, what would an appropriate CR for this thing be? It's not inherently broken, I think, just its HP and attack/damage are too high for the CR. Monster designer people, what would you say is a better CR? 4, 5, 6?

Crab-ninja'd!

[Fax Celestis]

Vorpal Tribble's CR Calculation Method gives it a high 6, low 7 CR.

[GimliFett]

I'd agree with a CR 5. A carcass crab, from Eberron Campaign Setting, is Huge, has 12 HD and is CR 8. CC has poison barbs, a bite and adhesive, so maybe a CR 4, then.

[bosssmiley]

That thing does 13.489 average damage with one hit? An average level 3 fighter with 10 con only has 16-17 hp! The designer who made this creature must have been surrounded with insane munchkins, or possibly a sadist.

Level 3 fighter with a Con of 10 and 16-17hp?
I don't entirely think it's the crab that's at fault here.

That said, a CR of 3 for an aquatic grappler (Go! Super Drowning Skills!) with those specs is a little b0rked. 4 maybe. 3? Naaaah.

[Citizen Joe]

I think they may have been comparing it to a Monstrous Scorpion
But if you compare it to a much weaker Giant Stag Beetle with a HIGHER CR you can see that something was falling apart in the CR calculations.

[Dausuul]

Level 3 fighter with a Con of 10 and 16-17hp?
I don't entirely think it's the crab that's at fault here.

That said, a CR of 3 for an aquatic grappler (Go! Super Drowning Skills!) with those specs is a little b0rked. 4 maybe. 3? Naaaah.

An extremely strong aquatic grappler. A level 3 character who's built for grappling might have a +12 grapple modifier--and that's with Strength 20, Improved Grapple, and full BAB. This thing has +19! And none of the usual anti-grapple tricks are available at third level. Once it hits you, it's got you and you're not getting away, and two rounds of being squoze in one of those claws will kill just about any third-leveler. The ability to dive underwater and drown you is just icing on the cake.

With a +10 to hit on its claw attacks, it's got pretty good odds of snagging two enemies on the first round. Game over, man.

Remember that a CR 3 should be an easy fight for a 3rd-level party, not an even match. An even match (50% chance for the battle to go either way) would be CR 7. This thing is a walking TPK.

[Citizen Joe]

AND it moves at 40', so you can't even run away.

[Kaerou]

Guys, guys, the crab isn't that hard. You just have to hit its weak point FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!

It is based on real japanese History =) This video will teach you how! (hint: flip it on its back)

And none of the usual anti-grapple tricks are available at third level.

Theres Grease, enlarge person. Still, even with those you still dont want to get in a grapple.

[The_Werebear]

The only way I could think of for handling this thing involves Alter self for wings and sniping at it with ranged attacks.

[GimliFett]

The only way I could think of for handling this thing involves Alter self for wings and sniping at it with ranged attacks.

I have a better idea if you're 3rd level. Don't wake it up and just leave. Quietly. Praying silently the whole time to whatever being you wish for help.

[Citizen Joe]

Yea, if it's CR 3, it isn't worth the experience compared to the danger. I don't think they have much treasure either. So about the only reason to attack one is if it is stone crab season and you want its claw.

Enlarge person helps because it can only use improved grab on creatures smaller than itself. But even just basic claw damage is gonna hurt.

I'm not sure how to do it, but the trick is to get it to grapple with two things that it can't damage. With its claws tied up, you can beat on it at your leisure. The trick is getting that at 3rd level.

[Dausuul]

In fact, I just realized that it's even worse than I thought, because it deals constrict damage on the same round that it starts the grapple. So each pincer actually deals 2d8+18 damage on the first hit. That's an average of 27. A third-level fighter with an 18 Con is only going to average 33 hit points...

[GimliFett]

Maybe if you made an illusion of an ogre that attacks it, so it gets grabbed in the pincer and... Oh, yeah. Mindless.

If a 3rd-level sorcerer/wizard could cast magic missile 11 times, it'd average to about 66 points of damage. You could do it from a hole somewhere where it can't get to you. Who'm I kidding? This thing's just not a CR 3. Really, you probably need 3rd level spells to deal with it, so make it a CR 5. It'd still take 2 fireballs maxed, plus some additional damage to bring down. That sounds better.

[Dausuul]

If a 3rd-level sorcerer/wizard could cast magic missile 11 times, it'd average to about 66 points of damage. You could do it from a hole somewhere where it can't get to you. Who'm I kidding? This thing's just not a CR 3. Really, you probably need 3rd level spells to deal with it, so make it a CR 5. It'd still take 2 fireballs maxed, plus some additional damage to bring down. That sounds better.

CR 5? You think ONE fifth-level character would have a fifty-fifty shot at beating this thing?

It really is CR 7, minimum.

[GimliFett]

CR 5? You think ONE fifth-level character would have a fifty-fifty shot at beating this thing?

It really is CR 7, minimum.

Given proper preparation, yes. But CR is based on a party of 4. I can see 4 5th-level characters defeating this with only some difficulty, but not major ones.

[Citizen Joe]

Grease on a character gives them +10 on their grapple checks to avoid a grapple. Level 3 fighter with 18 str would have +7 normally to this check... so 3 point advantage to crab still. Improved grapple would give you +4 for a 1 point advantage on the character, but it would take 2 feats to get it.

Enlarge person bypasses the whole free grapple thing (must be smaller than large), plus eliminates the AoO from moving through the reach zone. It also lasts MUCH longer than grease.

All of this assumes that you know you will be fighting said crab. If you stumble into it, you're screwed.

Someone should do an arena battle with a monstrous crab so people can test out their theories. 4 characters ECL 3, WBL (no one item more than half), have knowledge that you're up against this crab...

[lord_khaine]

the case is that even when you know what you are up against, and actualy make the party to face it there is a decent chance someone dies, whatever they were smoking when this monster was created must have been some expensive ****.