That Damned Crab!

[Golthur]

A few other monsters have this tactic, like gricks and ankhegs. I'm curious: do other DMs have their monsters do the carry-away-and-eat thing? (For that matter, what are the mechanics for that? Them being a part of the grapple rules, I'm never quite sure.)

I've done this with ghouls before. Paralyze-grab-take-eat. It's very demoralizing - which is sometimes very, very appropriate.

[Citizen Joe]

That actually makes TDC more of a resetting trap than an actual monster. What's the CR on a 27 damage trap that takes away the body?

[kjones]

Does anyone know that stupid "Crab Battle" video on Newgrounds?

One of my players thinks it's the funniest thing ever created by mankind. I'm tempted to throw That Damned Crab at 'em just to shut him up.

[Citizen Joe]

I know there is a giant crab battle in Pirates: The Legend of Black Kat. But at least you get bombs to fight it.

[OneWinged4ngel]

That actually makes TDC more of a resetting trap than an actual monster. What's the CR on a 27 damage trap that takes away the body?

More than 3.

[Fax Celestis]

Dungeonscape's "Encounter Traps" section puts the crab at CR 5.4 (round down to 5), if you reverse engineer from an average 13.5 damage.

[Citizen Joe]

OK so now the question is: Is CR 5-6 appropriate for the crab? And I think others have already said yes.

[Golthur]

OK so now the question is: Is CR 5-6 appropriate for the crab? And I think others have already said yes.

And does "stealing the body" count as an additional modifier to the CR?

[Citizen Joe]

And does "stealing the body" count as an additional modifier to the CR?

Yes, body snatching is a big CR bonus. That is part of what makes dopplegangers so nasty. Even after you find and kill the doppleganger, you can't find your buddy's body.

[Reel On, Love]

OK so now the question is: Is CR 5-6 appropriate for the crab? And I think others have already said yes.

As long as the mage isn't incompetent ("HURR I FIREBALL IT DURR"), yes. Hit the thing with Grease if you guys have ranged weapons, then Ray of Enfeeblement (follow up with Ray of Exhaustion if you can); put the tanky guy in front, since crabs are mindless, and while it's grappling him, beat the crap out of it. He should have enough HP to survive at that point.

Glitterdust once again proves to kick the ass of 95% of level 2 spells, since being mindless doesn't do a damn thing in regards to becoming immune to it, and a blinded crab is much easier to avoid and/or mix it up with.

[Fax Celestis]

As long as the mage isn't incompetent ("HURR I FIREBALL IT DURR"), yes. Hit the thing with Grease if you guys have ranged weapons, then Ray of Enfeeblement (follow up with Ray of Exhaustion if you can); put the tanky guy in front, since crabs are mindless, and while it's grappling him, beat the crap out of it. He should have enough HP to survive at that point.

Glitterdust once again proves to kick the ass of 95% of level 2 spells, since being mindless doesn't do a damn thing in regards to becoming immune to it, and a blinded crab is much easier to avoid and/or mix it up with.

Being blinded also means that the party rogue can sneak attack it.

[Reel On, Love]

That actually means a particularily competent party has a good chance of taking the thing out at level 3--and if the wizard goes before the crab, or the crab starts too far away to charge and reach the party in one round, it can even do so without anyone dying. The Fighter and Rogue should be packing ranged weapons; after Glitterdust (and Grease before or after, depending), they can keep shooting it and move around so it can't counterattack.

That's more a testament to the power of intelligently played wizards, than anything, though.

[Citizen Joe]

Being blinded also means that the party rogue can sneak attack it.

Maybe not...

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people. So I'm not so sure a rogue would know where to strike (or if it could reach that spot). There is enough wiggle room that the DM can disallow it. I know that previous editions had the backstab, which only really worked for humanoid opponents.

Anyway, even at level 5, you're looking at a nasty encounter unless you are prepared... Crab rushes out of its water, grabs someone. Next round, return to water, more constrict damage.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe not...

Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people. So I'm not so sure a rogue would know where to strike (or if it could reach that spot). There is enough wiggle room that the DM can disallow it. I know that previous editions had the backstab, which only really worked for humanoid opponents.

Anyway, even at level 5, you're looking at a nasty encounter unless you are prepared... Crab rushes out of its water, grabs someone. Next round, return to water, more constrict damage.

Any sane DM will not disallow it. It's a difficult enough encounter already.

[starwoof]

Maybe not...

Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people. So I'm not so sure a rogue would know where to strike (or if it could reach that spot). There is enough wiggle room that the DM can disallow it. I know that previous editions had the backstab, which only really worked for humanoid opponents.

Anyway, even at level 5, you're looking at a nasty encounter unless you are prepared... Crab rushes out of its water, grabs someone. Next round, return to water, more constrict damage.

Is a crab a construct, plant, undead, ooze, or incorporeal creature? IS it immune to sneak attacks? No? Then it can be sneak attacked.

[Reel On, Love]

Maybe not...

Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people. So I'm not so sure a rogue would know where to strike (or if it could reach that spot). There is enough wiggle room that the DM can disallow it. I know that previous editions had the backstab, which only really worked for humanoid opponents.

Are vermin on the list of "creatures you can't sneak attack"? No. Are they immune to criticals? No. Can you see the crab's vitals? Yes, because you're a rogue, and you don't have to roll a check to identify the friggin' anatomy of something before you can sneak attack. Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people... so you're not stabbing it in the same vital organ. "Look," says the rogue. "There's a hole in its shell." And he cracks a leg join with an arrow.

Anyway, even at level 5, you're looking at a nasty encounter unless you are prepared... Crab rushes out of its water, grabs someone. Next round, return to water, more constrict damage.

Next round it's blinded and doesn't necessarily know where the water is, or falling all over itself thanks to a grease spell. While the blinded or tripping crab mauls one character with constrict damage, the rest kill the hell out of it.
If it misses (and at level 5, ACs are high enough that it's got, what, a 40-50% chance of doing so?), a simple Silent Image can play absolute havoc with it, since it's mindless.
Because of the danger of one character getting killed, CR 6 might be more appropriate than 5, I guess.

[Citizen Joe]

It isn't IMMUNE, its just hard to get at its vitals. That's part of the evolution of a crab. If you could flip it over, I could definitely see sneak attack then.

[OneWinged4ngel]

On a semi-tangent, does anyone have ANY idea why vermin are mindless? Like, at all? It just seems to be another dose of gygaxian player screwing without rhyme or reason.

[Fax Celestis]

On a semi-tangent, does anyone have ANY idea why vermin are mindless? Like, at all? It just seems to be another dose of gygaxian player screwing without rhyme or reason.

Well, vermin are supposed to be monstrous insects or rodents, and you know, bugs and rats don't have brains. /sarcasm

Honestly? I've no idea.

[Reel On, Love]

It isn't IMMUNE, its just hard to get at its vitals. That's part of the evolution of a crab. If you could flip it over, I could definitely see sneak attack then.

Why is it hard to get at important points on its body? How about the face? The leg joints, or where they meet the carapace? If you decide that the giant crab can't be sneak attacked anywhere unless it's flipped over, you're making an arbitrary and unlikely decision that screws the player for no good reason.

If this was "you can't sneak attack a Frost Giant in the foot with your dagger, halfling, you'll need to find a way of reaching its knees or kidneys", you'd have a point. As is, not really.

[Fax Celestis]

If this was "you can't sneak attack a Frost Giant in the foot with your dagger, halfling, you'll need to find a way of reaching its knees or kidneys", you'd have a point. As is, not really.

Even at that height, one can still hamstring the giant. You're at the right height. I'd call that a Sneak Attack, in all honesty.

[Reel On, Love]

Even at that height, one can still hamstring the giant. You're at the right height. I'd call that a Sneak Attack, in all honesty.

Yeah, OK. I'm all for rogues being able to sneak attack anything not immune to it (and, heck, things shouldn't be immune to it, not great game design there); I guess the clause is there to prevent WTF moments when the rogue sneak attacks some monster that explicitly keeps its vital organs in some weird place.

[Ozymandias]

I'd say that a rogue's sneak attack is analogous to attacking its weak point for massive damage.

...

I'm sorry.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd say that a rogue's sneak attack is analogous to attacking its weak point for massive damage.

...

I'm sorry.

You should be.

[Reel On, Love]

I'd hate you for that, Ozy (oh, and it's MASSIVE damage), but... well, yeah. That's exactly what a sneak attack is.

[Citizen Joe]

Well, I'd simply ask where the rogue was trying to sneak attack. If he explained someplace accessible, then I'd allow it. But crab legs are not vitals. It is stone crab season here, and they just break off the claw and throw back the crab so that it grows another. Eyes are a good location to sneak attack, but if it's blinded, it would likely instinctively cover its 'face' with its claws and probably back up (or move sideways) towards the water. All I'm saying is don't count on a sneak attack.

As to peppering it with arrows... It has Darkvision 60'. So it would likely remain hidden (underwater) until something entered that range. Then surprise charge and grab.

Actually, here's a cheesy trick (but we're assuming we know it is there)... Two fighters form up with tower shields. The switch to total cover and move in slowly. The crab can't attack them because they have total cover. Now pelt with arrows and spells.

[Reel On, Love]

Well, I'd simply ask where the rogue was trying to sneak attack. If he explained someplace accessible, then I'd allow it. But crab legs are not vitals. It is stone crab season here, and they just break off the claw and throw back the crab so that it grows another. Eyes are a good location to sneak attack, but if it's blinded, it would likely instinctively cover its 'face' with its claws and probably back up (or move sideways) towards the water. All I'm saying is don't count on a sneak attack.

Uh, they're not vitals? It's a *giant* crab. It's using them to walk around. Sure, it might grow back eventually but that doesn't mean it doesn't like having it to move. Heck, the rogue just needs to qualify for something; if you want to customize weak spots for creatures, it's your job as a DM to tell him where they are (you notice that the creature has vulnerable eyes and a soft underbelly as well as an opening in the back of the shell, etc); him qualifying for sneak attack means that this character *has* noticed, and it's ridiculous to require knowledge of crustacean anatomy from the rogue's player.

Yes, people *should* count on sneak attacks, because it'd be totally unreasonable, pointless, and otherwise bad for a DM to deny them.

As to peppering it with arrows... It has Darkvision 60'. So it would likely remain hidden (underwater) until something entered that range. Then surprise charge and grab.[/quote]
Dwarves have darkvision 60', too.
If it grabs someone, then people prevent it from leaving (grease, blindness) and beat it up.

[Fax Celestis]

Uh, they're not vitals? It's a *giant* crab. It's using them to walk around. Sure, it might grow back eventually but that doesn't mean it doesn't like having it to move. Heck, the rogue just needs to qualify for something; if you want to customize weak spots for creatures, it's your job as a DM to tell him where they are (you notice that the creature has vulnerable eyes and a soft underbelly as well as an opening in the back of the shell, etc); him qualifying for sneak attack means that this character *has* noticed, and it's ridiculous to require knowledge of crustacean anatomy from the rogue's player.

Furthermore, actually saying "this is where you need to hit" in a combat system that has neither called shots nor facing is a bit ridiculous. What does the player have to do, say, "I aim for the eyes!"? That's a pretty ridiculous requirement.

[Spiryt]

Well, Citizen, with your logic, what about purple worms and Red dragons?
You know, rogue virtualy can't reach any vitals of ancient RD, even if he's 6 feet 8 ...

[Citizen Joe]

Bah!
RULE 0: I deny your sneak attack because his vitals aren't accessible
RULE 0: I deny your grease because it is sandy and it's legs go right through into the sand.
RULE 0: This is it's layer, it knows where the water is and escapes.
RULE 0: On its way to the water it knocks over a post. The ceiling collapses. Rocks fall. You all die.

"Wiggle room to deny"