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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironeyes View Post
    Doesn't make much business sense to lose out on sales just to avoid negative feedback.
    What do you call internally playtesting a game for 2 years before you let your ravenous customers have a go at it?

    Or the 9 or so months build up of terrible blogs with scant actual rules?

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    I call that an internal playtest and building up hype. Why - what do you call them?

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    You would think, if they were trying to build hype, the previews would have included better rules.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    You would think, if they were trying to build hype, the previews would have included better rules.
    If they playtested them for 2 years, I doubt they think they are so bad. Whether or not the market agrees is another question, obviously.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    What do you call internally playtesting a game for 2 years before you let your ravenous customers have a go at it?

    Or the 9 or so months build up of terrible blogs with scant actual rules?
    I'd call it something you clearly don't care for. But it's not at all the same thing as their online storefront being down.

    In the former case you might be unwilling to give them money for their (online) product. Which is perfectly fair; it's your wallet to vote with as you please. In the latter, however, you couldn't possibly give them your money even if you wanted to with every shred of your being.

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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    I feel like I'm in the minority that actually likes PF2 so far. I've only been able to play through the 1st playtest scenario so far, but I had a lot of fun with my half-orc ranger and his pet dinosaur. The action economy is smooth and intuitive, save for a few things like changing your grip on a weapon taking an entire action. The sorcerer being able to choose their own spell list is cool, and I'm looking forward to trying out an occult sorcerer in the 2nd scenario, whenever my group actually finds the time to get together again. I do however share the common criticism that a simple +1 is not enough to feel legendary, something like a list of abilities that only legendary characters can pull off. More skill feats with legendary as a prerequisite might help with that, right now the vast majority of them require only trained or expert.

    Martials being able to do wacky stuff is great too. A particular standout is the 18th-level rogue feat that grants you the ability to clip through the terrain, but I'd like to see other classes get more similar abilities as well. Most of all the thing I like about PF2 as opposed to PF1 is that I can actually see myself running it as a GM. Even as a player in PF1 I found it difficult to keep track of all the circumstance bonuses and whatnot, and being a GM requires an even greater level of system mastery than being a player. But this is all just the opinion of someone who predominantly plays 5e and has only dabbled in PF1, so what do I know.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Is it just me, or is there an over-abundance of rules in the PF2 playtest that say "The GM determines the DC/how long X takes/etc"?
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astofel View Post
    I feel like I'm in the minority that actually likes PF2 so far.
    I like the implementation of several things and the concept/ideas behind many more. Some are too clunky and need reworking, but that's the point of a public play-test, after all.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I call that an internal playtest and building up hype. Why - what do you call them?
    With games you playtest early and often. Playing with employees and select sycophants from your forums is not good feedback.

    I understand delaying the announcement of PF2e because as soon as that was announced mainly people cancelled their subscriptions and became Paizo anti-fans.

    It's the months of boring blog post that really rub me the wrong way. As soon as you announce the game, release what you have and start iterating. All the blog post did was highlight to me that Paizo has no idea what fun abilities are. I do not care how you rewrite the game, +1 on a d20 roll is not a fun ability.

    But the big downside of all that internal playtesting is that PF1 suffered. The last class they released, the Shifter, was just terrible and would cause anyone to really question if Paizo knows what they are doing anymore.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    I'd agree that numerical boosts are not sexy, even in a bounded system. Using a term like "select sycophants" just makes you look like you can't control your loathing for Paizo.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Using a term like "select sycophants" just makes you look like you can't control your loathing for Paizo.
    Or you could look into it and realize that that is exactly what happened.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Even if it actually happened (and I have only the word of someone who clearly loathes the new version), you phrasing it like that doesn't make it look less like a conspiracy theory.
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2018-08-29 at 06:57 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Even if it actually happened (and I have only the word of someone who clearly loathes the new version), you phrasing it like that doesn't make it look less like a conspiracy theory.
    Getting really upset about phrasing gives you something in common with the moderation on Paizo forums.

    Yes, I painted Paizo's ability to subject themselves to real criticism in a bad light. And I for one think it deserves to be placed in a bad light. There is no "harmless" way to phrase their dysfunction.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    I'm not upset. I'm just pointing out that you're damaging your ability to be taken seriously (at least in my eyes and potentially in others). If you don't care about that, carry on. It's no skin off my nose, after all.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I'm not upset. I'm just pointing out that you're damaging your ability to be taken seriously (at least in my eyes and potentially in others). If you don't care about that, carry on. It's no skin off my nose, after all.
    I thought my cartoon Beholder avatar well established that nothing here is all that serious.

    Maybe serious for people like Paizo who make a living off this kind of stuff. But for me, all I am doing is weighing the important matters of what kind of books will be decorating my coffee tables (Which at the moment is the Rules Cyclopedia, Savage Worlds and soon a GURPS book).

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    The so called design goals are clear to me. They want everyone to be able to make an interesting decision on character build every time they level...Players are to feel like they are making progress as they level in terms of game mechanics because the character is always increasing
    On those counts, PF2 is a failure. Mike Mearls level failure. Not just "throw everything out and go back to the whiteboard" failure, but "fire everyone" failure.

    If I had downloaded the PF2 playtest off some dude's blog, I would consider it bad {scrubbed}

    It's pretty clear that the fundamental design decisions for PF2 are either terrible or completely absent. It looks like Cargo Cult game design to me.
    Last edited by Haruki-kun; 2018-08-29 at 09:39 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CasualViking View Post
    {scrubbed}
    *looks at the several half finished personal attempts at just that

    *sweats

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    Last edited by Haruki-kun; 2018-08-29 at 09:40 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    I like the overall design of PF2. I like the idea of everything being feats rather than having lists of ACFs or Archetypes that change different parts and some can be combined while others can't.

    What I don't like is that they've hard-coded some parts of classes that I don't want hard-coded (like Paladins = shield users). Also, when they announced the new skill system with feats I had high hopes that it might allow some functionality for martials like Spheres of Might did, and it kind of does but level 15 is too late.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CasualViking View Post
    {scrubbed}
    I'm not one whos against colorful insults (Philosophy of mine), but I believe this sort of thing is against board rules. I just don't want you to get in trouble.
    Last edited by Haruki-kun; 2018-08-29 at 09:41 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I'd agree that numerical boosts are not sexy, even in a bounded system. Using a term like "select sycophants" just makes you look like you can't control your loathing for Paizo.
    That.

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    I just don't understand. Starfinder dying rules are far easier and simpler than this. Starfinder health makes more sense too. And they have Resolve Hero Points in this edition. Why aren't they just using that?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I just don't understand. Starfinder dying rules are far easier and simpler than this. Starfinder health makes more sense too. And they have Resolve Hero Points in this edition. Why aren't they just using that?
    Totally agree here. I thought Starfinder was pretty solid, but they are going a little overboard on the "let's make changes just to make changes" stuff.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ComaVision View Post
    I like the overall design of PF2. I like the idea of everything being feats rather than having lists of ACFs or Archetypes that change different parts and some can be combined while others can't.

    What I don't like is that they've hard-coded some parts of classes that I don't want hard-coded (like Paladins = shield users). Also, when they announced the new skill system with feats I had high hopes that it might allow some functionality for martials like Spheres of Might did, and it kind of does but level 15 is too late.
    Yeah, the idea to make all those selectable features class feats was good. Making almost every class feature a feat, less so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I just don't understand. Starfinder dying rules are far easier and simpler than this. Starfinder health makes more sense too. And they have Resolve Hero Points in this edition. Why aren't they just using that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrell1978 View Post
    Totally agree here. I thought Starfinder was pretty solid, but they are going a little overboard on the "let's make changes just to make changes" stuff.
    In this case I'd say it's the opposite. They're unwilling to make the same change in PF that they did in SF. Probably because they felt the players wouldn't accept it.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    biggrin Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    I came to terms with PF2 yesterday as I was messing around with updated playtest rules, my tables 3rd TPK and a system that reminds me more of an amalgamation of 4th/5th edition than Pathinder itself.

    The moment when I came to terms with it is when one of my players said "I am not calling this Pathfinder 2. I am calling this Phil." Then it dawned on me. This isn't a new edition of Pathfinder. This is essentially a new system with the wrong name.

    Once I separated how I thought about the game and completely divorced it as being "Pathfinder", I started having a little fun with it.

    I also realized this system will not replace Pathfinder 1 or 3.5 at my table. As my players and myself enjoy the number crunch and we enjoy that kind of play. We, won't go to this system for the same reason we tried and did not move to 4th or 5th edition. It is not what we consider fun. It is a departure of what we do find enjoyable.

    So my recommendation to everyone that is finding "Pf2" hard to swallow. Give it a new name. Like "Phil". And try it again.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Even looking at it as its own thing...the main issue with PF2, or "Phil" or "Hyper Deluxe Fantasy Superstars" is it's not a good system in its current state.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Is it just me, or is there an over-abundance of rules in the PF2 playtest that say "The GM determines the DC/how long X takes/etc"?
    Yeah it's there. It's one of the alleged good things of 5E they're poaching (my sarcasm). Fortunately as a player you get to know DCs. There are sample DCs in tables to work with. Even if two DMs disagree on a level or difficulty of a task their difference in DC value will likely be only by 1 or 2 because of the guidelines, so whatever your build choices you don't need to read the DM's mind about the campaign before the game begins. You know what you need to succeed on various specified tasks. They won't change based on who is DM that day. "The GM determines the DC" is because the GM creates the scenario, not fiat of having to come up with a number on the spot right then and there.
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caedes View Post
    I came to terms with PF2 yesterday as I was messing around with updated playtest rules, my tables 3rd TPK and a system that reminds me more of an amalgamation of 4th/5th edition than Pathinder itself.

    The moment when I came to terms with it is when one of my players said "I am not calling this Pathfinder 2. I am calling this Phil." Then it dawned on me. This isn't a new edition of Pathfinder. This is essentially a new system with the wrong name.

    Once I separated how I thought about the game and completely divorced it as being "Pathfinder", I started having a little fun with it.

    I also realized this system will not replace Pathfinder 1 or 3.5 at my table. As my players and myself enjoy the number crunch and we enjoy that kind of play. We, won't go to this system for the same reason we tried and did not move to 4th or 5th edition. It is not what we consider fun. It is a departure of what we do find enjoyable.

    So my recommendation to everyone that is finding "Pf2" hard to swallow. Give it a new name. Like "Phil". And try it again.
    I'd call that a pretty big failure in and of itself. If you are alienating a large part of your fan base to the the point that they don't want to make the change that's not a good sign.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrell1978 View Post
    I'd call that a pretty big failure in and of itself. If you are alienating a large part of your fan base to the the point that they don't want to make the change that's not a good sign.
    I’m a long term fan, with competitive PF trophies, who has introduced my child to gaming through PF. I’m not just alienated, I’m so furious I am unwilling to be casual friends with people who like PF2. They aren’t welcome in my house. I can’t help thinking that there is something seriously wrong with them and they might injure my children.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    I’m a long term fan, with competitive PF trophies, who has introduced my child to gaming through PF. I’m not just alienated, I’m so furious I am unwilling to be casual friends with people who like PF2. They aren’t welcome in my house. I can’t help thinking that there is something seriously wrong with them and they might injure my children.
    See....not good. I don't hate the new system that much but I'm not a huge fan. I really like starfinder and wish they would have gone in that direction if they were going to revamp the system.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    In general I like P2. It definitely has the potential to be my favorite system. Currently that is modified 5e. P2 isn't perfect, and there are some things that need to be refined, and there are a couple of things that need to be fixed.


    Pros:
    Action Economy: 3 Actions is simple, and outside of some problems with switching grip etc works very well.

    Spell Balance: Super solid, nothing overtly broken. Could use some more spells that can be heightened or have variable casting modes. Good start.

    Bound System: The underlying system of P2 is a very solid and tight bound system. Its really better than 5e's.

    Feat-based Multiclassing: This is my preferred way to multiclass.



    Cons:
    Level Scaling: They ruin the beautiful bound system with +lvl to proficiency scaling. This is very easily fixed and I'm really pushing for official variant rules. The amount of work required for these modifications isn't that much, only really an inconvenience with the bestiary.

    Magic Weapons: Damage dice tied to the magic weapon potency is just frustrating. It is far better to make additional damage dice dependent on levels ie 4/8/12/16/20. It greatly increases the variety of weapons and you'll see things like a fighter carrying a handful of masterwork javelins at late levels. As it currently stands you'll use the best weapon you have, the one you dumped an outsized portion of your WBL into.

    Monster Skills: Monster skills are too good, especially perception. Their underlying math gives too many assumed bonuses and proficiency to Monster skills. Perception is the biggest offender. AC and to hit and saves/DCs are fine.

    Sorcerer: Sorcerer's bloodline powers should be optional feats at those levels requiring the selected bloodline. Gives Sorcerers more flexibility and ability to multiclass, less shoehorned builds.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    In general I like P2. It definitely has the potential to be my favorite system. Currently that is modified 5e. P2 isn't perfect, and there are some things that need to be refined, and there are a couple of things that need to be fixed.
    See, that's the thing, PF 2e (if you strip out the level auto-scaling) resembles 5e far more than it does PF. I still can't fathom why Paizo would try and make their own 5e instead of double-refined 3.5/PF, unless they intend to keep supporting PF 1e after 2e's release. I mean, if they could drag half the 5e players to their side, that'd be nice, because I do think that WotC needs a shake-up, but, well, is this really what Paizo thinks they should do with the Pathfinder brand?
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