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2018-09-02, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Originally Posted by Florian
That's basically someone rewriting his personal favorite system to include house rules and what the person thinks would be the "best" update options, often without any sense of compromise, ie. 3.Florian.
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2018-09-02, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Oh, absolutely. It could've been better, but it also could've been worse. What I dislike is taking 4e's concepts (or any system's concepts) and then making them actively worse or more annoying while retaining just enough to make the cribbing noticeable.
For instance, 5e basically has the AED part of the AEDU system down pat...except it's at-will, short rest, long rest, and short rests are hard to come by in some games, while encounter powers just reset each combat. Yes, 4e was far more "gamist". But for some mechanics that meant good execution. The major problem with 4e I have is that everyone's on the same progression and same power structure. Yes, that balances things out. But it also makes all classes very similar to one another in some sense. Some differentiation might've helped immensely.Last edited by Ignimortis; 2018-09-02 at 01:52 PM.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2018-09-02, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-09-02, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-09-02, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Isn't 4ed also the edition that introduces short rests? Not that I know what they reset, offhand.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2018-09-02, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest II: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
on being different:
I do think ultimately you have to step away from the old clunker. But of course, most of the alternatives didn't want to and largely still don't. They just want that ONE WEIRD TRICK. And they've had a publisher that has been willing to put out its own comfort food and reheat leftovers with maybe some odd dishes from the many freelancers and hobbyists that can now churn out "official enough" material.
5e has taken this weird sort of almost minimalist position to where it seems like they could have Mike and a couple hand puppets put out one book a year as long as it's OKish. Perhaps 4e's biggest sin was not waiting until after Hasbro decided that anything beyond Transformers, MLP and MTG is house money anyway.
Crit spec:
It looks like everybody that actually cares gets enough proficiency to get by if they can survive to level 3. With a pretty cheap trinket in case of "you picked axes and swords, so of course you roll nothing but spears."
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2018-09-02, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Technically ToB introduced them, with 1 full minute of no combat being the time it takes to recover maneuvers between back-to-back fights.
End of the Encounter: When an encounter ends, a martial adept automatically recovers all expended maneuvers. Even a few moments out of combat is sufficient to refresh all maneuvers expended in the previous battle. In the case of a long, drawn-out series of fights, or if an adept is out of combat entirely, assume that if a character makes no attacks of any kind, initiates no new maneuvers, and is not targeted by any enemy attacks for 1 full minute, he can recover all expended maneuvers. If a character can’t avoid attacking or being attacked for 1 minute, he can’t automatically recover his maneuvers and must use special actions to do so instead.
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2018-09-02, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-09-02, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
As far as I can tell, short rests were lengthened to an hour in 5E because people complained about them being too unrealistic, too easy, etc. So it's kind of emblematic of how far 5E was truly allowed to go. Of course, PF2E seems to be doing its best to avoid any kind of per-encounter mechanics, even if they crop up sometimes.
Last edited by Morty; 2018-09-02 at 03:11 PM.
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2018-09-02, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Lot's of people's problem with 4e is that it stands as the poster boy for the "MMORPG-ization" of D&D. The ironning out of all the deeply engaging wrinkles, crevices, dead ends, subsystems and, dare I say, exploits, in the name of *massive finger quotes* Balance. In hindsight, that's also something Paizo's Pathfinder is guilty of through another vector, that being literal frequent and continuous
coderules patches.
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2018-09-02, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Which is another instance of criticism on a macro level which, while perfectly valid, shouldn’t invalidate every smaller decision that made up that composite. I hope that we can view things like feats not being unnecessarily long chains as a decision of its own without “4e ergo bad.”
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2018-09-02, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
The only information I see encoded in "feats not being unnecessarily long chains" is that the speaker considers it superior to something else. Not a good match for the appeal to objective phrasing.
Last edited by Kish; 2018-09-02 at 07:00 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2018-09-02, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
D&D 4e did manage to lose more than 90% of the D&D 3.5 player base so there's a lot of blame to spread around. I don't think it was any one thing which made it fail which makes that worse. It does make any innovation they introduced suspect, no tho' not necessarily bad.
In the specific case of different class paths being distinguished from each other by class feats (PF2)/class powers (4e) chosen, yes there's a parallel, and I hope there will be a retraining option later to let you back up decisions which aren't working out, but it doesn't feel like any sort of gamebreaker to me.
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2018-09-02, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Do remember that 4e failed not only because of the game rules themselves but also because of many horrible business/marketing decisions:
-No free srd (which was supposed to be replaced by an online subscription system that ended up never being completed).
-No OGL meaning virtually all 3rd party companies jumped ship, that's the reason Paizo decided to go with Pathfinder, as trying to "update" to 4e would've been financial suicide.
-As 4e was previewed, the wotc devs started insulting 3rd edition left, right and center, including how you should get rid of all your previous edition books and never look back, including the rewarding of people who bashed previous editions (remember 4vengers?)
Paizo doesn't seem to be doing any of the above at least.
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2018-09-02, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Huh. My memory must be fuzzy, then again, I didn't play much of 4e. I think we just waived that rule about 5 minutes, because there were no encounters that had a break less than 5 minutes between them.
5e's short rests, though, are the opposite - there are almost no cases where you can take an hour for short rest but can't afford eight hours for a long rest, unless specifically enforced by the DM with a timed mission or something.Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2018-09-03, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
I'm sorry, but in many ways, it IS a fair comparison.
Because Paizo has been doing this for a decade or so now. And they have experience with three previous editions, two of which they've created.
At this point, they should be well capable of not making basic mistakes, such as making some classes almost completely useless outside of combat. They've seen the effects more than often enough, they've made more than enough attempts to fix it on their own, there have been more than enough D&D-related fixes to that very problem they can get inspired by.
At this point, they should be quite capable of including "advanced" systems in their core content, such as "nice things for martials". There have been dozens of examples, they did some on their own - and sure that was in a different system, but a lot of that design experience should still translate.
At this point, they should be capable of learning from their mistakes. And hey, in some cases they are - spellcasting seems a lot more balanced, though in a lot of cases at the cost of being less fun - but their pace is positively glacial.LGBTitP
Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted Fanfiction)
Originally Posted by grarrrg
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2018-09-03, 02:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
I'm not sure if I spoke about this on the earlier (fused) thread, but this is a good moment to point out an observation about that.
Yes, PF1e did "feat chains", where you had to spend up to 4 feats to develop the proper traits of the combat styles. While they were largely undefined, you got which feats helped which combat style: Weapon Finesse (and to an extent Combat Expertise) for Fencing, Power Attack for 2H, Imp. Unarmed Strike for Unarmed, Imp. Shield Bash and Shield Focus for Sword & Board, Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for every Ranged weapon, and so on. The more feats you devoted into that combat style, the better you're supposed to be in that style - adding, say, Furious Focus to Power Attack meant you hit better when using PA, to give an example. The key thing to understand here is that, while Martials were locked into spending a ton of feats for a combat style, they had at least the illusion of choice. You wanted a Paladin that could wield two weapons? Sure - you had to spend points on Dex, which made an already MAD class even more MADant (not MADder because you don't say "dependantder", right?), but you could go for the TWF feat chain. Or, take TWF and go Shield Master, and fully establish as a SnB character. Was it optimal? Not really, but it could still work nonetheless. Some classes had their fighting styles baked in: Monks were pretty much locked into Unarmed combat, whereas the Ranger had its choice of combat styles but worked better as a Ranged character. Others had it implicitly: Barbarians worked best with a 2H weapon, Paladins preferred Mounted Combat because their Divine Bond gave them a sweet mount, and so forth. Still, even if unoptimal, you could still do a different build, and see how well you could make it work. Archetypes helped with that. The Fighter was unique in that it was meant to be capable of truly mastering all combat styles - Two-Handed Fighter for Two-Handed combat, Shield Fighter for Sword & Board, and Pit Fighter for Unarmed (IIRC), for example.
PF2e outright removed that illusion, and shoehorned the combat styles they consider iconic for each class. Fighters have a wider variety of access to combat styles, but notice how the Paladin is either THF (Blade Ally), Shield (Shield Ally) or Mounted Combat (Steed Ally); Rangers can dip into TWF, but they are mostly Ranged. Rogues, even though they aren't meant to be focused on combat, are pretty much locked into Finesse combat. Barbarians are pretty much meant for THF. If you want an alternative, at least in core, you can't - you can't make a Paladin excel in Ranged weapons as a Fighter would, because the only true advantage you get is adding properties to your weapon. Retributive Strike and its advantages can't be done with Ranged weapons, because of their Trigger, so you're losing on their only fixed class feature, and potential improvements thanks to the Blade Ally feat chain. At least in PF1e, if you wanted to go Ranged, there was the illusion of an option (just get PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot and a good bow) which got expanded a bit more (the Divine Hunter, for example). Not only does that illusion, which is a big selling point*, was removed, but they've created a new illusion of having a ton of class features to choose, when in reality they just took those packages you mention and forced them into certain classes, locking them from variety - and all in an effort to protect the niche of the Fighter of being "best Martial class".
To stress that point - consider one of the three combat styles given to the Paladin (Shield). In PF1e, that's not really the most viable option, even though a Sword & Board Paladin is almost textbook in how iconic it is - the ability score and feat requirement are just prohibitive for them, and locks them from feats that expand the utility of their class features or grant more options (Unsanctioned Knowledge, the Mercy feat chain, etc.) People that move from PF1e to PF2e might feel a bit jarred to see that their favorite builds might not work as well anymore, because the combat style they relied on doesn't really work. And even then, you can't use a shield as a weapon, unlike in PF1e, unless you're a Fighter. And...even then... Rogues unable to access TWF outside of Multiclass feats, Rangers being locked to two combat styles rather than experimenting...the execution is not the best.
*: Here, I must refer to 5e. No matter what you think about it, it's selling well. Real well. One of the reasons I consider it sells so well is because it caters to the feel, not necessarily the math. 5e bounded accuracy is extremely swingy, and with Advantage/Disadvantage is even swingier; you can argue their math is not a strong point. However, it feels like you're playing a simpler 3e, and doesn't feel like you're playing 4e, so it sells. That sense of the game you're playing is one of their bigger selling points (that, plus marketing, plus taking a cue from Paizo and creating robust adventure modules, plus brand loyalty, plus simplicity in mechanics, makes it a hot seller). PF2e doesn't feel that much like Pathfinder, and that feeling of unfamiliarity might alienate their customers. As I've ended up thinking about 4e - maybe 4e might have sold a lot more if it wasn't branded "Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition", but a whole new game that only superficially resembled it.Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder. Also available for 5th Edition
On Lawful Good:
T.G. Oskar profile by Specter.
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2018-09-03, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-09-03, 04:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
I don't understand you guys as every one of you try to toot your own horn about how perfect edition will be but none of you sit the f down and say keep this, this and this solve following problems with these options from those companies. No you gents just enter hulk smash mode and try to preemptively burn the product that basicly came past month. Are we in that much of burn the witch with out trial mode. Calm down and start putting realy usefull feedback will ya like what parts of first edition you realy like to keep( mine the whole class design) what new concepts they need to introduce( for me just gave green light to sphere system).
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2018-09-03, 07:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
It doesn't matter how useful our feedback is, Paizo actively feels harassed by feedback much less will actually listen to it.
I'm not sure how to fix 3.5, but PF2e isn't doing it. 3.5's biggest problems are how hard it is to run. The balance aspects are only relevant in comparison to how hard it is to run. But it's only hard to run because everyone can do cool and amazing things. PF2e largely solved "that problem" by making a really boring game.
Perhaps they didn't really need to fix 3.5. They just needed to keep supporting it. I know our group dropped all plans for Pathfinder campaigns with the 2e announcement because we know no more substantial content was going to come out for Pathfinder and the Shifter was really disappointing.
It's sad that Paizo decided to kill their game and stopped putting in any effort. They may have won back some of the 5e crowd after they got burnt out. But they got scared after 2 years of 5e success and basically abandoned Pathfinder to work on 2e.
I do not have confidence in this company anymore.
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2018-09-03, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Oh, noes! Another company drops 3.5 for good and doesn't cart about supporting a 20 year old product anymore! The world will end!
And this is why the folks over at Paizo will prolly ignore a lot of feedback, because right now, it´s only trolling against any progress.
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2018-09-03, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Originally Posted by Alexvrahr
D&D 4e did manage to lose more than 90% of the D&D 3.5 player base so there's a lot of blame to spread around.
I’m certainly not arguing that 4E lost a great many 3.5 players, just interested in whether there’s any precise information on the numbers involved.
Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar
…Rangers can dip into TWF, but they are mostly Ranged.
Forcing rangers to be ranged sounds like a terrible design decision. One more reason to breeze right past this edition.
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2018-09-03, 08:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Ironically enough, a level 1 ranger using a longbow is going to have to pick either an animal companion or the very bad Monster Hunter feat. Fighters get Point Blank Shot, but rangers do not, at least not on level 1.
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2018-09-03, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
I'm not convinced that the design team agrees with me that the problems I see are problems. If they have had 'two years of internal playtests', then I suspect they are content with the general place martial characters are in. I expect they simply want a different game than I do. Oh well.
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2018-09-03, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
A neat custom class for 3.5 system
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616
A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/
An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system
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2018-09-03, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
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2018-09-03, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
It's probably impossible to get hard precise numbers, but basically before 4e D&D PHBs sold in the order of millions (something like 200k per year between 3rd and 3.5), while 4e PHB sold hundreds of thousands total, aka a whole order of magnitude lower. And 4e didn't even have a free srd. That was probably the main reason why wotc started to get desperate with stuff like making magic missile auto-hit again then just announced a new edition.
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2018-09-03, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Last edited by Rhedyn; 2018-09-03 at 09:29 AM.
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2018-09-03, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.
Originally Posted by deuterio12
It's probably impossible to get hard precise numbers….
I wish I could find those blog entries now—they were really interesting and gave some good insight into the logistics of game publishing. There has to be more information like that out there, for 3.X as well as Pathfinder.
Originally Posted by Florian
I'm seeing a lot of 3.5 grognards, some of them not even playing PF1….
So, can I be a P1 grognard? Or better yet, a P1E fighter?
.Last edited by Palanan; 2018-09-03 at 09:34 AM.
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2018-09-03, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Pathfinder 2 Playtest 2nd Edition: If it ain't broke, still fix it.