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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    In my story's world, Baphomet is a deity that is worshiped openly. witchcraft is a respected institution, with the most powerful practitioners being at the top echelons of society. Due to this, society traces its lineage through matrilineal lines. Witchcraft is usually exclusive to females, and therefore magic is seen as a form of "womanly essence". However there is a way for males to gain access to magic abilities through a long ritual performed by several witches. This spell lasts many hours and involves various ingredients.

    After the ritual takes place, the body of the male goes through a number of changes. Muscle mass decreases somewhat, he develops breasts, and his facial features become more androgynous. Although he is generally weaker than most other men and not as powerful as witches, he is considered part of a third sex, holding aspects of both man and woman. This third sex is seen as sacred and considered to be a higher form of divinity due to its similarities with God.

    Can this be a good way to introduce transexuality into a magic system?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    I don't know much of non-binary/traditional gender/sex thoughts, but I'd imagine some might be offended at the "third gender" thing if it is truly meant to be transsexualism. It sounds more like becoming a hermaphrodite. Or... not really any change with biological sex (you didn't mention any with the transformation: could a ritualized male still sire children? could he become pregnant?), just being fairly androgynous. I reckon a <term for man becoming woman in real life> wouldn't want to be equated with a man who somehow becomes really effeminate but is still male.

    Regardless of whether it's a good way to show transsexualism, this does seem an in-universe consistent ritual and view of reality. (Although... based on some of your other posts about your setting... I'm not sure why the Third Gender would be considered more divine than the others, especially if it has aspects of both genders but is weaker than both in their strengths. I guess if the deity is hermaphroditic, that makes sense as being closer to the god's form.)
    Being consistent with your setting is not in itself a good reason to include this or not, but it is a good thing for world-building.

    Since the Third Gender is considered more divine, I'd reckon a ritual also exists to let women trade some of their magic power to become more male.

    However, unless there's a strong push (by you? your players? whoever) for including the gender spectrum, it might be better/easier/more consistent to have gender be fairly binary in your setting, or at least be considered such by the majority. Males and females seem to have a fairly set standard roles, and the traditions of the faith might work against any sort of transsexualism or non-binary genders. (And I suppose one way to be respectful for such is to show the persecution of them as a real problem.)

    I hope the language I used isn't offensive.
    Last edited by JeenLeen; 2018-08-27 at 08:42 AM.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    The first question is why you're doing this. Is it for male characters to still access the witch magic? Is it for players to play as trans people in the game? What, exactly, is to motive behind this change to your game?
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    Why is your magic system gender-specific?

    Is it genetic stuff, and the Y chromosome prevent you from doing magic? Or you need double X chromosome to do magic?
    (The latter allow some interesting stuff for people that are YXX or XXX)
    Or is it soul-based stuff, and you need a "female soul" to do magic? Or "not-a-male soul"?
    (The question being "Are male banned from magic as a punishment, or does female received a special gift"?)
    Or is it somewhat linked to social-gender and the education you received?
    (The deity refuse to give magic to peoples that "don't behave as female")

    From what you described, it looks like Genetic stuff (because you can change the body to have access to magic), and where XX is needed, so the ritual "gives you an additional X", making you a XXY (thus something in between male and female).
    But you are still free to change it.

    Finally, are you sure you want to talk about that stuff in your JDR? There is a lot of stuff that you can put into your universe to make it "more real", but that does not mean it is a good idea to do so. The last thing you want is to have a "gender vs sex" debate during a JDR session.

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    Trans person here. I find this entire idea weird and uncomfortable and would not play in a campaign with this as the setting. RPGs are often a form of escapism, and this sort of focus on it would be intensely disconcerting for me personally.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    In all honesty I'm not really sure what you are going at here, specifically because what you described isn't transexualism. A transexual would fully transition to the opposite sex than what they were born with, what you are describing as a third gender would be better described as a hermaphrodite.

    That being said your world building seems interesting. Witchcraft is traditionally associated with associated with women for a number of reasons, a combination of females often being associated with deception and subterfuge precisely because they are physically weaker than males and females being more traditionally associated with the "life cycles," which are often attributed to being a source of magical power. I would suggest if you keep this concept that you add some unique features to blend together masculine martial prowess and feminine magical powers to make it something more than just a weakened gish. If it really is seen as holy maybe grant it some innate clerical abilities?

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    Sex is a spectrum, and given the way real world cultures approach sex and gender, what you're trying to set up here is somewhat reductionist when viewed from even its own internal lens. I would assume a culture like this would actually more readily divide "femaleness" from womanhood and femininity, and be more worried about Baphomet's perception of the practitioner than whatever downstairs mixer (or combination thereof) happens to be present.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.nyalathotep View Post
    Can this be a good way to introduce transexuality into a magic system?
    What you described is very different then how real life transexuality works. I am not the right person to talk in length about real life transexuals - I barely talked about gender and identity with the few that I've known; what you described is a physical process without any real life equivalent I know about. But what you described is also not just about identity, but also about practical uses - someone who goes through that transformation would have good reasons to do so even if it would make him extremely uncomfortable. The process is also long and involves a few witches, so I guess it would be only something only the rich could afford. What about the fertility of those who go through the process? If they remain fertile, how would their offspring be?

    If you do want to include transexuals, you can have mundane ones, and think about how society would treat them - would trans-women be viewed as disgruntled men that envy the magical power that women posses? Would trans-men be viewed as women who deny their sacred heritage? How much magic that alters appearance is accessible?

    There are also people that are biologically between male and female, the term for that is intersex I think. There are people who are born with both genitalia, people with are born with the genitalia of a certain sex and the inner plumbing of the other, people with genitalia that doesn't really fit the definition of a male or female genitalia, and probably more examples I can't think of right now. Could intersex people have magical powers in your setting? How would society treat them?
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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    You could still argue that going from one or the other to intersex or hermaphoraditic, or going from intersex or hermaphoraditic to one of the other is still trans.

    One could, for example, make the argument that Earthworm Jim is trans, since he identifies exclusively as a he, despite the fact that he is an earthworm, and earthworms are hermaphoraditic, and he still has visible female earthworm characteristics (that band thing is part of his egg-laying apparatus)
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2018-09-01 at 02:35 PM.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    You could still argue that going from one or the other to intersex or hermaphoraditic, or going from intersex or hermaphoraditic to one of the other is still trans.

    One could, for example, make the argument that Earthworm Jim is trans, since he identifies exclusively as a he, despite the fact that he is an earthworm, and earthworms are hermaphoraditic, and he still has visible female earthworm characteristics (that band thing is part of his egg-laying apparatus)
    The only problem with this Jim argument is that he technically isn't transexual at all, he would be transgender. If you separate sex and gender into the physical and mental characteristics, respectively, someone can only be transexual if an actual physical transition has been made. I checked the OED to see what they had to say on the matter and they do indicate that there been some confusion due to some people using the words interchangeably but they give the definition of tansexual as:

    N. "A transexual person; spec. a person who has undergone or is undergoing sex reassignment."

    This would suggest that someone going from male to hermaphrodite would be transexual, though a lot of other dictionaries I looked at still include that "opposite sex" component, so I guess it just comes down to consistent usage.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    You know what I mean
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    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    "hermaphrodite" is terminology that is being retired in favor of intersex, as a slur that was also inaccurate/misleading.
    "transsexual" is generally considered old and out of fashion these days, since it focuses on 'sex' which is, in fact, not connected. A bunch of old school people still use the term, but the younger crowd not so much.

    The transition description there isn't out of place for a 'third gender' in some other culture, but it does not map to what a transgender person experiences and is kind of.. Odd really. I mean, what is the magic actually linked to exactly? Because transgender people are born transgender. If magic is biologically sex linked, it's just one more thing to be uncomfortable about not matching.

    If people who change over are given special third gender status, I would expect to see a lot of "O Sacred one!" "Please stop, I'm just some girl." There has been a push in other places to highlight "We aren't <third gender>, we're just women/men!" And a small push for "Please just mark me as 'none of the above' without arguing". The third genders are often projected onto people based on formalizing whatever odd niche GNC people were able to carve out of necessity.
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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeZero View Post
    "hermaphrodite" is terminology that is being retired in favor of intersex, as a slur that was also inaccurate/misleading.
    They mean different things. 'Intersex' means that they're one sex but have the secondary sexual characteristics of the other sex as well. 'Hermaphoradite' means that they actually have gamete producing reproductive systems of both sexes. Intersex is by far the more common of the two common whereas hermaphoraditism is rare even among rare phenotypes and occurs significantly less than one in a million
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    'Intersex' means that they're one sex but have the secondary sexual characteristics of the other sex as well.
    This is not quite accurate, at least based on my best understanding of its current usage. Intersex refers to anyone who is born with sex characteristics that is not typical of male or female bodies. These sex characteristics include primary and secondary sexual characteristics, hormone profiles, karyotypes, etc. So it just refers to anyone who wouldn't be comfortably described as belonging to either sex. I think the UNHCHR has the most widely used definition if you want a proper source. A UN fact sheet pdf can be found here.

    Historically, "hermaphrodite" was a term used to describe anyone who wasn't male or female - though this is a far cry from its current scientific usage which does indeed describe organisms that can produce the gametes of both sexes. The older usage in reference to people dates back quite far with examples in Roman Law, then Canon Law and then Common Law - though even then there seems to have been a notion that "whichever sex prevailed" was the one the person was to be treated as under the law - as there were stark differences in the way the law treated men and women obviously. So this terminology is different to the modern usage of intersex in some subtle ways.

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    Hermaphoradite means being both and has always meant being both (although it has also historically been used to describe intersex people). [etymological explanation redacted]
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2018-09-15 at 11:30 PM.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    I am familiar with the story of Hermaphroditus and Salmalcis, and I agree that in the strictest sense it refers to an organism that is both male and female in terms of sex - but this is not really how it's used when you're talking about people in common usage. There absolutely are cases of, for example, true hermaphroditism in humans. However, the modern medical term is actually "ovotesticular disorder of sex development" (wow, that's a mouthful), with terms like "hermaphrodite" being phased out when referring to people.

    Like many other terms that came to be used as intentional insults it began as a simple descriptive term. It did however come to be used as an insult for intersex people as well as a wide array of gender and sexual minorities. These instances were often irrational, but words mean whatever people use them to mean and the term has come to have a definite negative connotation when applied to people - outside of a historical context. So it has come to be considered an impolite or rude term. Will this persist? No idea. The word "queer" when describing a person was most definitely used as a slur and to some people it still is, but usage changed and after being reclaimed it is now proudly used as a label people identify with openly. I have no idea if something similar will happen with hermaphrodite, but for the time being the consensus seems to be that it's a rude word. I'm not telling you what words to use or not use, I just mean to point out that using this word will carry this negative connotation to a lot of people - at least when used to refer to other people.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    The question posed is backwards in context of what is described in the first post. You aren't trying to introduce real transsexualism to magic, you are using the conceits of your magic system to introduce a specific form of third-sex and gender stereotypes.

    As a result, what's described in the first post doesn't really touch on reality of transsexuality and transgenderism at all.
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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    I think the best solution to do this is to DON'T.

    The entire idea of having a sex-based magic system where a certain chromosome weakens or disables one's magical ability is a can of worms on its own, and when poorly done becomes a sexist display at worst and a pointless piece of fluff at best. Unless you have players who actively and specifically want to explore the ideas of transsexualism in your campaign, it merely introduces a whole new factor that can distract your players if they don't see it as you inviting them into your "magical realm" (It doesn't really matter if the game would be good or not from that point on-- as a DM, your job is to lead your players down an interesting story, and if they aren't interested in your story, that failure is on you). Most people play role-playing games to escape from the every day, and introducing something that is a strong point of contention in the modern day can easily drag them out of the experience or start arguments between players.
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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    Or at least don;t focus on it. It kind of comes with the territory in Eberron but it's in poor taste to obsess over it. If someone's playing a changeling then their character switching between male and female becomes kind of banal. Similar the warforged are pretty much all transgender, given that they're biologically neuter and yet most of them seem to identify as either male or female.
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2018-09-23 at 11:59 AM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: how can you introduce transsexualism in a gender specific magic system?

    One thing to keep in mind is that if your setting lacks in-depth knowledge of biology, having your explanation for gender or sex specific magic be based on in-depth biological knowledge creates a tonal conflict. Or, if that is not clear enough: don't use chromosomes or genes as an explanation if the characters in the setting can't be expected to know about that!

    Instead: if magic in your setting is primarily theurgic, accept and embrace the fact that magic is gate-kept by one or more supernatural beings. In your case: Baphomet or avatar of it arbitrarily decides who counts or doesn't count as a woman. If you want to emphasize mysticism, you don't need to tell the criteria to the players. Leave them up to their trial-and-error. This also shifts the burden of introducing transsexualism (etc.) to the game on the players and minimizes chances of it becoming a focus unless the players really want it to.

    If you do wish to reveal the criteria, put it in terms which would be comprehensible to both players and their characters. For example: if womanhood in Baphomet's eyes is based on ability to menstruate, that's a clear cut on who makes it and who doesn't. If the players or their characters find this offensive, they are free to go the usual "God(s) is (are) EVIL!" route.
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