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    Default Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Pretty much as the title requests.

    I can see that the ideas correspond to a DnD alignment, and I can mostly see how they fit. Here's what I've figured out on my own:


    • The unrelated ideas making up the Astral plain are pretty streightforward everyday thoughts. My google-fo tought me that the Infiled-fly rule is from Baseball and I guess it's one of the more complicated or obscure rules.
    • I have found this source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_..._cosmology.svg
    • which explained the "Who's a good dog" part to me.
    • "The Needs of the Many" and "Resitance is Futile" are obviously Star Trek references
    • "You should feel bad"... is a meme originating from Futurama.
    • "I was just following orders" is real worlds most common excuse for comitting war crimes


    I'm curious if there are references I missed in the rest of the ideas. And I'm completely puzzled about the "Screw you Jack, I got mine"-part

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    I don’t know if it’s a media reference, but “Screw you, jack, I got mine” is an attitude prevalent in the world. It reflects the idea that you shouldn’t bother helping anyone except the people who are important to you. Essentially, “mine” translates to “my people.”

    If you have the time, look up Tribalism - I’d guess that’s the thought process this line best exemplifies. For an in-comic example, consider Redcloak’s crusade to build a better world for goblins at the expense of all other species, or his initial bigotry towards hobgoblins.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Recreator View Post
    I don’t know if it’s a media reference, but “Screw you, jack, I got mine” is an attitude prevalent in the world. It reflects the idea that you shouldn’t bother helping anyone except the people who are important to you. Essentially, “mine” translates to “my people.”
    While that would be a powerful concept to build a plane around, it seems ill-fitted to describe the Abyss, which the order of the Outer Planes indicates this would be.

    Then again, the best core idea for the Abyss would be "lulz", which instead got assigned to Pandemonium for some reason.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    The bubbles are just representative statements of the various planes on the great wheel, arranged in order. They're loosely arranged in the same order as your given source page, with the true neutral plane in the middle.

    They're simplified, but they essentially describe what those planes' organizing common ideals are. My favorite is Pandemonium's Lulz.

    The ones on the bottom are justifications often given for crappy behavior. Also, Limbo refusing to conform to the appearance of every other plane? Brilliant.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Regarding "Screw you Jack, I got mine"...

    ... the legends tell that once upon a time a certain merchant ship at the high seas in the middle of a storm found a small boat with survivors from a shipwreck. The merchant ship approached the boat and laid a rope ladder for the people on the boat to climb to the merchant. Much to the sailor's dismay, a guy from the boat grabbed the ladder and said "Allright Jack, I got mine", suggesting the ladder was just for himself and the sailors should pull him up. Like if he were the only person there, without regard to the fact that the rest of the people on the boat also existed and needed the ladder too in order to be rescued.

    The quote later evolved into "Screw you Jack, I got mine", to exemplify an extreme self-serving narcissist acctitude at the expense of others, that fits rather well the description of the CE alignment.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2018-08-31 at 09:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    snip
    Ah now, yes, that is perfect for the Abyss.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    This post expains all of them incredibly well.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    This post expains all of them incredibly well.
    It did, but I couldn't get through it at first due to the formatting leaving a bit to be desired. I'll try to fix that. I also added the alternate name for Celestia, since Thanatosia had the alt name for Bator. I like symmetry.
    Spoiler: Better formatted version. Props to Thanatosia for writing it all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatosia View Post
    Quick Guide to the Outer Planes

    • Elysium - True Good - "Everyone should Care" - Basically the classical greek fields of Elysium, a place so idealic it can actually entrap you there and make you forget you ever had a reason to leave.
    • The Beastlands - Good but a little Chaotic - "Who's a good dog, you are!" - Good animals are good!
    • Arboria - Chaotic Good - "Words aren't as important as people" - Sylvan afterlife of elves.
    • Ysgard - Chaotic but a little good - "Fight the good fight!" - Valhala and valkyries!
    • Limbo - True Chaos - "Don't you tell me what to do!" - Swirling essence of chaos, a roiling maelstrom of all elements and concepts
    • Pandemonium - Chaotic but a little evil - "LULZ" - Deep cavernous realm filled with screaching deafening winds that drive everyone insane.
    • The Abyss- Chatoic Evil - "Screw you jack, I got mine." - An Infinity of demons, going down uncounted layers (though some claim 666), each worse then the last in theory.
    • Carcerei - Evil but a little Chaotic - "You're bad and you should feel bad." - A prison plane
    • Hades - True Evil - "Nothing Matters" - Infinite bleakness, where you slowly loose the will to care about anything (including leaving) until you fade away to nothing but dust.
    • Gehena - Evil but a little lawful - "Resistance is futile" - Giant volcanos floating in space controled by Yugoloth Generals and warlords
    • Baator (the Nine Hells) - Lawful Evil - "Yes, but if you read the fine print..." - Where you sell your soul to when you make faustian bargains.
    • Archeron - Lawful but a little evil - "I was just following orders..." - An eternal battlefield where armies clash forever on giant floating cubes.
    • Mechanus - True Lawful - "There's only one right path" - Huge mechanical plane made out of interlocking gears, many colonized by ant-like formians.
    • Arcadia - Lawful but a little good - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." - Paladin afterlife, with an ultra-strict home owners association.
    • Celestia (the Seven Heavens) - Lawful Good - "Truth, justice, and the celestial way." - The conventional heavenly plane, in the form of a giant mountain you climb as you become purer.
    • Bytopia - Good but a little lawful - "Let's all do our part" - Gnomish afterlife, consisting of two planes one hanging over the other, with a communal spirit.
    • Outlands - True Nuetral - "Hey, lets not get carried away..." It connects and bleeds into all the other in a circle around it, with a 'portal town' at every junction. At it's center is a giant pillar that nulifies all magic as you approach, and gods and dieties are unable to approach. Floating in a ring on that pillar is the major planar city of Sigil, ruled by the Lady of pain.


    Edit - added a d&D description of the planes, and added outlands which I totally spaced on.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    While that would be a powerful concept to build a plane around, it seems ill-fitted to describe the Abyss, which the order of the Outer Planes indicates this would be.

    Then again, the best core idea for the Abyss would be "lulz", which instead got assigned to Pandemonium for some reason.
    You make a good argument. I suppose it boils down to an interpretation and evaluation of intentions.

    "Lulz" to me says someone understands they did something wrong, but decided that a reason they know is a poor reason is good enough here because they got away with it. In a sense, this is highlighting the Chaotic tendency to flaunt rules.

    "I got mine" to me says I do not even need a reason to screw over someone, because there is never really a reason to care about anyone else.

    Of course, the weakness with my reasoning here is that enjoying the infliction of pain is a pretty classic flag for true Evil. "Lulz" implies a sick kind of pleasure. "I got mine" does not say anything about that.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Regarding "Screw you Jack, I got mine"...

    ... the legends tell that once upon a time a certain merchant ship at the high seas in the middle of a storm...
    I'll be honest, I thought this was going to be a Titanic "plenty of room on that door" jab.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    The "Screw you, I got mine" sounds an awful lot like Loki's vote at the Godmoot: "Screw you guys, we won anyway!!"
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    I actually feel like the evil planes show a really cool progression that reflects the Law/Chaos axis well. It's all about justification and defensiveness.

    • Chaotic but a little evil - "LULZ"
    • Chaotic Evil - "Screw you jack, I got mine."
    • Evil but a little Chaotic - "You're bad and you should feel bad."
    • True Evil - "Nothing Matters"
    • Evil but a little lawful - "Resistance is futile"
    • Lawful Evil - "Yes, but if you read the fine print..."
    • Lawful but a little evil - "I was just following orders..."


    "You're bad and you should feel bad" seems like it's a statement of guilt, even remorse, but like the other semi-Neutral Evils, it really revolves around the idea of moral helplessness. Both the slightly lawful and slightly chaotic version rephrase "Nothing Matters" through the appropriate lens - "I'm just a bad person" vs. "The world is just a bad place".

    As the endcaps, both "LULZ" and "I was just following orders" aren't necessarily evil, but if you have to use them as justifications you probably did something evil.
    Last edited by TriciaOso; 2018-08-31 at 12:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    It seems pretty clear to me that the Abyss statement was a more comic-friendly variant of the more commonly-seen phrase ("FYIGM") that a CE individual would actually be using in that spot. "Jack" isn't a specific reference to anyone, just a generic epithet for whoever they're speaking to.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "Jack" isn't a specific reference to anyone, just a generic epithet for whoever they're speaking to.
    Yes, for example:

    "You can't hear nothing when your head's in a bag, Jack!"

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Recreator View Post
    I don’t know if it’s a media reference, but “Screw you, jack, I got mine” is an attitude prevalent in the world. It reflects the idea that you shouldn’t bother helping anyone except the people who are important to you. Essentially, “mine” translates to “my people.”
    I would say that "mine" usually refers to "my stuff", "my money", or "my power" when I've heard it in fiction in the past.

    To say that I care about the people around me is to suggest that I at least care about SOMEONE other than myself. I see this particular phrase being associated with a step down from even tribalism.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    "I've got mine" seems extremely self-centered. A more tribalistic form of the sentiment would probably have been phrased as "we've got ours".

    The motto of Gobbotopia isn't far off from that more "inclusive" selfishness.
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2018-08-31 at 06:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    As well Pandemonium is insanity. So Lulz makes sense there.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It seems pretty clear to me that the Abyss statement was a more comic-friendly variant of the more commonly-seen phrase ("FYIGM") that a CE individual would actually be using in that spot. "Jack" isn't a specific reference to anyone, just a generic epithet for whoever they're speaking to.
    It looks like a portmanteau of that phrase and the similar British one "...you Jack, I'm alright". See for instance the bowdlerised wikipedia entry and film title.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Vazque View Post
    I would say that "mine" usually refers to "my stuff", "my money", or "my power" when I've heard it in fiction in the past.

    To say that I care about the people around me is to suggest that I at least care about SOMEONE other than myself. I see this particular phrase being associated with a step down from even tribalism.

    Enjoy,
    Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.
    Huh. I could swear I first heard it in the context of tribalism, as in "I got my family taken care of, why should I care about yours?"

    Oh well.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Recreator View Post
    Huh. I could swear I first heard it in the context of tribalism, as in "I got my family taken care of, why should I care about yours?"

    Oh well.
    I've only ever heard it in context of people in power.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I've only ever heard it in context of people in power.
    I've heard, if not the phrase itself, then the sentiment on all levels. Even some people who have next to nothing, when they have just a little bit more than nothing, can become supremely unconcerned with helping anyone else in need. "Screw you, I've got mine," is a statement of utter selfishness, greed, and narcissism. You don't have to be rich or powerful to be greedy. I've heard it in an economy largely based on ramen noodles, soap, and toilet paper.



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    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    As well Pandemonium is insanity. So Lulz makes sense there.
    Honestly, it's not like insanity in general has any uniting philosophy or alignment. "Insane" strikes me as broader than "sane" because the latter is basically everything not included in the former. It's pretty much defined by what it's not, rather than what it is. Like aberrations. Kind of a "miscellaneous" category, if you will, not unlike what we see with the Astral itself.

    “Isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!”
    ― The Tick

    So you pretty much have to pick something more specific than just "crazy" if you want something at all specific. Given that, "lolrandom" isn't such a bad choice. Basically, "just crazy" instead of just "crazy". The most quintessential craziness is the craziest craziness, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    Also, Limbo refusing to conform to the appearance of every other plane? Brilliant.
    Note that Limbo's portal(?) isn't just square instead of circular, it's also a not a spectral color. There is no such thing as magenta light.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    As well Pandemonium is insanity. So Lulz makes sense there.
    Honestly, it's not like insanity in general has any uniting philosophy or alignment. "Insane" strikes me as broader than "sane" because the latter is basically everything not included in the former. It's pretty much defined by what it's not, rather than what it is. Like aberrations. Kind of a "miscellaneous" category, if you will, not unlike what we see with the Astral itself.

    “Isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!”
    ― The Tick

    So you pretty much have to pick something more specific than just "crazy" if you want something at all specific. Given that, "lolrandom" isn't such a bad choice. Basically, "just crazy" instead of just "crazy". The most quintessential craziness is the craziest craziness, I suppose.
    Mental illness is not random and it is not evil. "Lulz" has nothing to do with insanity and "just crazy" does not mean anything.

    The problem with mental illness is not that you are not thinking rationnally, it's taht your premisses are flawed.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Mental illness is not random and it is not evil. "Lulz" has nothing to do with insanity
    Never? I fully agree that none of those things are generally the case, and said as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    and "just crazy" does not mean anything.
    Well, now we're getting into philosophy of semantics. ("What is meaning?")

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The problem with mental illness is not that you are not thinking rationnally, it's taht your premisses are flawed.
    I'm pretty sure that being mistaken about something isn't the same thing as being mentally ill (although of course there's overlap).
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    I think the fact that "Lulz" is the most slangy of the phrases says something about the attitude it espouses: it's about evil done for kicks, but it's an un-serious, almost whimsical kind of evil-for-kicks-doing. More like a juvenile delinquent tossing rocks through windows to play at being a villain than an adult sociopath tossing concrete blocks off an overpass to see if they'll kill a driver.

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Much as I love the most of 1138, evil parts of the Wheel are off.

    Pandemonium is not lulz. It's got nothing to do with lulz, nobody is lulz in there (except the occasional weirdo, cos chaos). It's the land of infinite darkness, isolation and madness induced by the infinite darkness and the isolation (also the neverending howling winds [also also sudden death by flensing]). Its motto should be something about isolation/darkness (literal or otherwise) or undirected violence or traumatic loss. Which is why it should've been AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRGH!!! as I'd said.

    Conversely, the Abyss is full of gleefully chaotic evil demons who're in it for malicious amusement. It is FAR more "lulz" than Pandemonium can ever be. In fact, it's the lulziest of them all. Sure, all demons are eternally miserable but they get small moments of joy and happiness from hurting the weak. And therefore lulz really ought to have been the Abyss.

    Meanwhile, "**** you, got mine" is a distinctly Gehennan sentiment. It's a very apt summary of the daemonic way of life. Demons of Abyss will not **** you up for fun and profit, they'll **** you up because **** you, that's why. "Got mine" is good when it happens but is not an Abyssal ideal. It's the daemons who'll be all chummy until the sudden but inevitable betrayal as soon as they get what they wanted. They're not very antiresistance/extraauthoritarian types at all, I'm not sure what's actually happened there.

    However the rest are all awesomeness, with Carceri-Tartarus especially phenomenal.


    On the upper hand, "who's a good boy? you are!" is just silly but Beastlands is a silly place anyway so it's fine.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    Much as I love the most of 1138, evil parts of the Wheel are off.

    Pandemonium is not lulz. It's got nothing to do with lulz, nobody is lulz in there (except the occasional weirdo, cos chaos). It's the land of infinite darkness, isolation and madness induced by the infinite darkness and the isolation (also the neverending howling winds [also also sudden death by flensing]). Its motto should be something about isolation/darkness (literal or otherwise) or undirected violence or traumatic loss. Which is why it should've been AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRGH!!! as I'd said.

    Conversely, the Abyss is full of gleefully chaotic evil demons who're in it for malicious amusement. It is FAR more "lulz" than Pandemonium can ever be. In fact, it's the lulziest of them all. Sure, all demons are eternally miserable but they get small moments of joy and happiness from hurting the weak. And therefore lulz really ought to have been the Abyss.

    Meanwhile, "**** you, got mine" is a distinctly Gehennan sentiment. It's a very apt summary of the daemonic way of life. Demons of Abyss will not **** you up for fun and profit, they'll **** you up because **** you, that's why. "Got mine" is good when it happens but is not an Abyssal ideal. It's the daemons who'll be all chummy until the sudden but inevitable betrayal as soon as they get what they wanted. They're not very antiresistance/extraauthoritarian types at all, I'm not sure what's actually happened there.

    However the rest are all awesomeness, with Carceri-Tartarus especially phenomenal.


    On the upper hand, "who's a good boy? you are!" is just silly but Beastlands is a silly place anyway so it's fine.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Possibly also worldviews of the outsiders that dominate these afterlifes.

    Why do Howlers attack adventurers? Lulz.

    Why do Bladelings attack adventurers? Because they're following orders from senior ones.

    And so forth.
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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronounceable View Post
    Much as I love the most of 1138, evil parts of the Wheel are off.

    Pandemonium is not lulz. It's got nothing to do with lulz, nobody is lulz in there (except the occasional weirdo, cos chaos). It's the land of infinite darkness, isolation and madness induced by the infinite darkness and the isolation (also the neverending howling winds [also also sudden death by flensing]). Its motto should be something about isolation/darkness (literal or otherwise) or undirected violence or traumatic loss. Which is why it should've been AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRGH!!! as I'd said.

    Conversely, the Abyss is full of gleefully chaotic evil demons who're in it for malicious amusement. It is FAR more "lulz" than Pandemonium can ever be. In fact, it's the lulziest of them all. Sure, all demons are eternally miserable but they get small moments of joy and happiness from hurting the weak. And therefore lulz really ought to have been the Abyss.

    Meanwhile, "**** you, got mine" is a distinctly Gehennan sentiment. It's a very apt summary of the daemonic way of life. Demons of Abyss will not **** you up for fun and profit, they'll **** you up because **** you, that's why. "Got mine" is good when it happens but is not an Abyssal ideal. It's the daemons who'll be all chummy until the sudden but inevitable betrayal as soon as they get what they wanted. They're not very antiresistance/extraauthoritarian types at all, I'm not sure what's actually happened there.

    However the rest are all awesomeness, with Carceri-Tartarus especially phenomenal.


    On the upper hand, "who's a good boy? you are!" is just silly but Beastlands is a silly place anyway so it's fine.

    Yeah, I was just thinking some of these NE/CE lines ought to be switched around. "Screw you jack, I got mine" feels kinda NE to me. "Lulz" feels way more CE. Pretty close to the essence of it, actually.

    I'm not sure what's best for the place of "lulz" or where "nothing matters" would go.

    Oh well. It was still a great comic.
    What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
    Where waves of hunger gnaw?

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    Default Re: Can someone explain the ideas from 1138 to me?

    Wiktionary has an entry for a similar phrase, but it uses a more vulgar synonym of "screw" and ends with "i'm alright" instead of "I've got mine".

    The definition given is "[phrase] used to epitomize arrogance and selfishness, with dismissive disregard of others."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilan8888 View Post
    Yeah, I was just thinking some of these NE/CE lines ought to be switched around. "Screw you jack, I got mine" feels kinda NE to me. "Lulz" feels way more CE. Pretty close to the essence of it, actually.

    I'm not sure what's best for the place of "lulz" or where "nothing matters" would go.
    "Nothing matters" would be moved to Pandemonium to replace "Lulz". It even fits because Pandemonium is the home of the nihilistic Bleak Cabal planar faction.

    EDIT:
    Oops. Didn't see the year initially. Just saw the thread started in August

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