Dnd becoming hyper saturated and "lacking identity" alongside the rest o nerd culture

[mephnick]

That's my point. There is no technological solution to it for TRPGs. If you're not sitting at the same table, you've removed the core aspect that makes it a TRPG. That's what makes it harder..

Definitely. There are people who actually say they prefer playing over Roll20 and I don't get that at all. It feels so soulless and empty. The few sessions we can only connect online there is always that feeling of "we should have just cancelled and waited."

[ImNotTrevor]

Definitely. There are people who actually say they prefer playing over Roll20 and I don't get that at all. It feels so soulless and empty. The few sessions we can only connect online there is always that feeling of "we should have just cancelled and waited."

Just because I can't reach across the table and run my greasy, cheeto-dust hand across your shirt doesn't mean I can't speak to you and have fun playing the game together.

I am one of those people who doesn't mind either option, but acknowledges that online is WAAAAAY easier to set up.

I have played tabletop with people from Russia, the UK, the Netherlands, Canada, and every US timezone without needing to spend a small fortune on travel. That's pretty neat!
And of course, having all my stuff online means I don't need to haul anything, print anything, transfer notes, or bring spare pencils. It's less headache as a DM AND as a player. Since I'm low on time nowadays and online play is the least time consuming and most accessible option, of course I'm going to choose it.

And when I CAN play IRL, I will.

[Darth Ultron]

You've demonstrated elsewhere that you don't know a thing about videogames, now you demonstrate you don' t know a thing about contemporary recording technology and digital music.

Well, If I was given the choice of a band/performer I like of ''A super cool digital MP6" or life time tickets to all their concerts. I know the one I would pick....

[comk59]

Well, If I was given the choice of a band/performer I like of ''A super cool digital MP6" or life time tickets to all their concerts. I know the one I would pick....

That's such a false equivalence I don't even know where to begin.

[flond]

Well, If I was given the choice of a band/performer I like of ''A super cool digital MP6" or life time tickets to all their concerts. I know the one I would pick....

You'd take the 20 Gary Cherone concerts? :P

[LudicSavant]

Definitely. There are people who actually say they prefer playing over Roll20 and I don't get that at all. It feels so soulless and empty.

If your game feels soulless and empty, there may be an issue with how you're making use of the medium, rather than the medium itself.

Playing on Roll20 is different, and requires different methods and skills to be done well... just as adaptation from a book to a movie (or any medium to any other) isn't as simple as a copy/paste.

[RedWarlock]

I've not done much online, but what I have has usually used Skype or Google Hangouts to have an open voice call. It gets way too easy to talk over someone else, or haltingly pause as two people start talking at once, or various other communication issues. Plus you lose that face-to-face element, gestures, silent looks, etc.

I've tried online board systems, but personally, I have a very large minis collection (mostly DDM, collected from 2004-2010) which a digital tabletop basically eschews entirely. I've also got hundreds of dungeon tiles (bought a bunch of them for cheap back when Borders closed), and several sets of dry-erase interlocking boards which I much prefer to use over a digital map. I put all this money into them, they're still good, but unless we rig up a camera over the board, it doesn't do much good on an online game. (We did try that a couple times, with a friend's ipad doing the voice call and sharing the camera, set on its folding case, but unfortunately, that friend recently passed away, and his tech went to his extended family.)

I greatly prefer in-person play.

[Mordaedil]

I'm kinda resigned to play online on Roll20, because my friends are mostly from Denmark and occationally from the US. So in order to play at all, we have to agree to play on Saturdays and in the evening and mornings for everybody to have time and be available. The one time we all did get together, roughly a month ago, we were not really looking into playing, because there was so much else going on.

Then again, my hands are kind of a mess, so I can't really write with a pen well, so I have no issues with playing online, using Discord to talk and Roll20 to play. Talking over each other still happens, sure, but in my opinion it works out well because we are respectful to each other if we notice that we interrupted.

[BRC]

I've been running an online game for a few years now, mostly over skype, with hopping over to Roll20 when we want to use a battlemap.

It can be a fun experience, and as far as using maps goes (I generally prefer Theater of the Mind, but I can't argue that some of my best encounters have been made possible by a tactical battlemap), Roll20 has a lot of advantages over anything I could do on a table as far as how much I get out of the effort I put in.

If I was one of those people with a ton of time, a massive collection of minis, and tons of cool terrain pieces, maybe. But, Roll20 gives me some easy tools. I can slap some trees and rectangles onto a map in five minutes and produce a functional, decent-looking battlemap.


That said, you definitely DO lose something when people are not sitting around the same table. It's harder to keep everybody's attention, technical issues disrupt the flow of play, and I find it's generally harder to draw players into roleplaying with each other. A lot of the tools we use to socially interact (eye contact, body language), are missing or limited over the internet. While Roll20 certainly has advantages, I'd prefer to be sitting around a table.

[ross]

First of all, thank you for the advice.
Second, it´s not so much sucking because of it´s popularity, it´s more on the line that I think that some people only appreciate it because it´s cool now. If the same issue would be presented 20 years ago, those same people wouldn´t be interested in the game.
There is also the problem of the simplification of the system, but that´s more personal opinion.

Yes, of course. Being interested in DnD is now low-risk, so more people are incentivized to try it. In fact, some people might actually gain status by being openly interested (or claiming to be interested) in DnD, which would have been inconceivable 20 years ago, when it was more or less metaphorical suicide. It's also a positive feedback loop; as it gains popularity, the risk of joining continues to fall, and so it becomes more popular, etc.

[Poison_Fish]

Unfortunately the Other Change of Hobbit Fantasy & Science Fiction bookstore closed, which is saddening, but there's still Dark Carnival in Berkeley and Borderlands in San Francisco.

Dark Carnival is pretty great and full of nostalgia for me. Also Dr. Comics & Mr. Games is still around which was my young time hang out spot in the 90's.

[Jama7301]

I was having difficulty parsing some of this thread, so forgive me if this is off the mark but, I don't see how D&D5e is a more saturated product than the bloat monster 3.5/PF is. Unless you're referring to player saturation, in which case... cool, more people want to play, which should mean more people will want to GM. Also cool.

[Scripten]

I was having difficulty parsing some of this thread, so forgive me if this is off the mark but, I don't see how D&D5e is a more saturated product than the bloat monster 3.5/PF is. Unless you're referring to player saturation, in which case... cool, more people want to play, which should mean more people will want to GM. Also cool.

The OP was talking about the latter.

[Jama7301]

The OP was talking about the latter.

Me, as a person, cannot fathom why that is a bad thing.

[Max_Killjoy]

Me, as a person, cannot fathom why that is a bad thing.

We can perhaps conclude that this is because you are not a hipster, and do not subconsciously gauge the value/importance/coolness of a thing based on its exclusivity or outsider status or "ahead of the curve" status.

[Willie the Duck]

Me, as a person, cannot fathom why that is a bad thing.

Apparently they weren't the right people or weren't doing it for the right reasons. Looking at the OP's posting history other than on this thread, I think it is safe to say that the OP was drive-by-trolling. Really we need to see if there's anything else worth saying to salvage the thread, or let it drift into discussion of online games or the like.

[Nifft]

this is because you are not a hipster, and do not subconsciously gauge the value/importance/coolness of a thing based on its exclusivity or outsider status or "ahead of the curve" status.

I used to be a hipster, before it was cool.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I used to be a hipster, before it was cool.

Why does the hipster have a burned lip?

He drank his coffee before it was cool.

[Willie the Duck]

Okay, looking at the date on this thing, I suddenly feel very old.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, I think RPGs getting more mainstream has increased hygiene standards amongst the nerd crowd, which I am supremely thankful for.

Yeah, the showering increase is a nice improvement over some of the oldenday events.

Thank for your reply.
Maybe I´m just giving too much thought on the matter,

But you were happy to unthinkingly post a wall of text/troll. You got 6 pages worth of response, so troll success is indicated.

Enjoy the golden age while it lasts. We'll all be regulated back into the basement soon enough.

My house doesn't have a basement. Am I doomed, or do I need to find a friend whose house does? (Our local water table more or less precludes houses with basements ...)

Society is no more tolerant of the long nailed, unshowered individuals who I played MTG and D&D with as a teen. It just likes their stuff.

I don't like MtG, but I get your point.

To paraphrase grognards.txt: "WHAAAAAHHH!!! If the ****ing JOCKS start playing D&D, I'll have to admit that I'm a social outcast because of my lack of hygiene and social skills, not because I like D&D!"

Heh, Me and the other jocks whom I played with, D&D, back in the 70's were not aware that it wasn't our game. Who knew?

See, in this case the social norms are things like "don't be a jerk to girls just because they're girls, shower every two to three days, wear clean clothes every day, brush your teeth in the morning and evening, brush/comb your hair if it's long enough for that to matter."

Like, it's not stamping out a unique nerd culture here, it's basic hygiene and social skills. Some guys are just mad because they can't hide behind D&D to explain their conscious decision to refuse to look after themselves to a basic level anymore.

Snort. That got a laugh out of me.

And yes, I'm one of the new-fan jock-gamers. Sorry.

Welcome aboard, we've been with this game all along. :)

The game store weirdo is a bad stereotype, but damn..I've met some real ****ing weirdos trying to do things at game stores that I would never meet at work, on a soccer team, or running club. The fact that some of these people from other areas in my life may also be interested in RPGs and video-games is revolutionary and has only made my life and hobby better.

Yeah.

You were very polite, but the actual message you were conveying was rather toxic.

It was a troll, as I see it.

To all those worried about the jocks stealing their D&D I've got an elegant solution. Who wants to start a GiantITP rugby team?

35 years to late for me, sorry.

[Ronnocius]

Not sure if I have caught everything in the original post as it is sort of incoherent (paragraph breaks are your friend, blocks of text are not).

I empathize to some degree because (assuming I am understanding the purpose of the post correctly), it is hard to accept that things you were once judged/shamed/etc for are not considered 'totally cool dude!' However I choose to view it positively, as it means there are far more players to the game which is definitely beneficial to the game itself and (in my humble opinion) nerd culture in general. I'm sure that you will be able to find some like minded fellows similar to yourself to geek out with. Happy gaming!

[Devils_Advocate]

So, if nerds are analytical about stuff, geeks are enthusiastic about stuff, and hipsters are elitist about stuff, does that leave "dorks" as the term for social outcasts? With the relevant note that these are intersecting categories, of course.

I find the complaints about 5e being “dumbed down for the casuals and kiddies” to be kinda strange, as someone who started in 2e AD&D (toward the very tail end of it, granted, although I wasn’t a fan of the “Players’ Option” series like Combat & Tactics that came out around then and didn’t use them much) and find it to feel more like a throwback to the D&D I grew up with in spite of the huge difference in mechanics, whereas 3.5 and 4e didn’t feel like the same D&D, and have seen so many other TSR grognards pulled back into the D&D fold after years of grousing about 3e-and-later games.

That's a point. Obviously a company wants to sell a game to as many customers as they can, but more specifically, 5E was designed to appeal to as broad as possible a group of current and former players of Dungeons & Dragons. And making the rules simpler than in previous editions was done in part to make 5E more similar to even previouser editions!

Someomr please "Sig" that!

Be the change that you want to see in the world.

(Then again, if you think that you know this Someomr person well enough to judge that a particular quotes is perfectly in line with their particular sense of humor, who am I to say otherwise? :P)

[Nifft]

you know this Someomr person

Probably just another Sindarin girl.

[2D8HP]

Probably just another Sindarin girl.

Please, Sindarin lady.

Also, I'm totally a hipster, dig:

Purple Eisenhower mimeographs going through the stucco of my mind

Mustard gas, atomic blasts, squares are too sublime

*snaps fingers*

"Espresso"

Oh wait D&D...

"Purple Elminster scrolls going through the wattle and daub of my mind"

*snaps fingers*

"Mead"

Also, I hate sports.

[Nifft]

Please, Sindarin lady.

I want to live with a Sindarin girl.

I could be happy
the rest of my life
with a Sindarin girl.

A dreamer of Adra
I run through the stars
You see us together
praising Ilúvatar
My Sindarin girl.

Ten dwarven axes
a kid with a ring
The dragon relaxes
and dreams until spring
'bout his Sindarin girl.

A dreamer of Adra
I run through the stars
You see us together
praising Ilúvatar
My Sindarin girl.

Eru sent me Valar now
I'm gonna break it somehow
I need another ring
You see your hobbits love to sing
Yeah...yeah...yeah.

[2D8HP]

I want to live with a....

.....hobbits love to sing
Yeah...yeah...yeah.

In awe

[Devils_Advocate]

Upon further reflection... Dorks are just socially inept without necessarily being disliked, right? I think that the relevant descriptor for social outcasts is just "unpopular".

Incidentally, I just noticed that my parenthetical reply to 2D8HP includes the phrase "a particular quotes", in accordance with Muphry's Law.

[TexAvery]

If I may be indulged...

In a former life I was a car guy. Certain cars are more popular in their segments because of a variety of factors, of course. The thing that boggled my mind was the number of guys who would insist they didn't want a particular popular car specifically because it was popular. Nevermind if it was the best for the task.

The current other side of my life is running and triathlon Over there, it's the opposite: the majority wants to ride the same bikes as everyone, on the same wheels, and run in the same shoes. If someone doesn't conform, the peer pressure comes on stronk. Further, over the last few years, the participation rates in marathon and triathlon have declined by ~10%, and a lot of people are apoplectic because (as near as I can figure out) fewer participants means less social validation. On the other hand, I don't mind a smaller field with more dedicated participants.

Edit: Hit post too soon.

That's all a long way of saying that it's silly to base your selection of hobby (or whatever else) on others or their preferences. You do you, and let others do as they will. RPGs are nowhere near oversaturated, and "appropriation" is a great big flagstone of good intentions.

And that said, of course, bullying is terrible, but also is never about what you actually do. It can be described as either very simple or very complicated, but the truth is you're almost never bullied because of what you do, even though that's what will be used as a topic for the bullying.

[The Jack]

I wanna rant about The Elder Scrolls series for a moment, because I think it's relevant.

Nobody cares for TES 1 so let's leave that out.

Tes II daggerfall was super hardcore in mechanics and had plenty of unique ideas that didn't get carried over to sequels. It was very popular but at the time the gaming market was very small.

TES III Morrowind was super detailed and had plenty of cool ideas that didn't get carried over. It was very popular but even though the gaming market had hugely increased since the days of II, it was nowhere near the behemoth of today.

TES IV Oblivion lost much of the detail and many of the ideas. It was very popular and gaming in general was entering mainstream at this point.

TES V Skyrim shat on the games that came before it and became much more 'gamey' and pulpy at the expense of world building and good story. It was incredibly popular, but gaming in general was incredibly popular at this point.


I want to know why things become so lacking in identity, because I think TES would have remained incredibly popular if they'd just built upon II or III, it didn't need to become skyrim, it would've sold incredibly well with the rise of the market anyway.


Although I hold these views, I do believe 5e to be largely, though not entirely, superior to 3rd edition in mechanics.

[Mordaedil]

Focus testing and development for consoles mostly, in terms of Oblivion and Skyrim.

While Morrowind received an X-box port, it got a lot of negative feedback for being difficult to play on the console, leading to improvements being considered for Oblivion. A common complaint about Morrowind was the lack of responsiveness for combat feeling right, so they experimented until they got a more positive reception and their focus groups responded more positively to how Oblivion turned out, so they went that way. Turns out it was still not quite right, so Skyrim went further and made it even more streamlined. Consoles being played on TV screens lead to the userface being as it is.

As for Daggerfall -> Morrowind, those decisions were entirely practical. Daggerfall used a lot of procedural generation (which they did locally once and then shipped that seed they generated as the game) but generally the game was a 2-dimensional fare, despite having climbing, jumping and dungeons that spiraled on top of itself, the overworld itself was very flat and generic. The only way they could have depth was to make placeables that got replaced after the fact. The reduced complexity came with the desire to make the entire game 3D and be something you walked from one end to another without a fast-travel system.

A larger emphasis was also put into story, which leads us to CHIM.