Players are calling BS on Summon Marked Homunculus

[ExLibrisMortis]

6d6 reflex half isn't exactly big damage for a 3rd level spell. Or unique. And most others don't need a level 1 summon to deliver them, requiring move actions to hand them over.

Creatures next to the runes (close enough to read) take 6d6 damage, no save. You can prep explosive runes on scrap paper ahead of time, on days you have third-level slots remaining. The birds use a move action to pick up on their first turn, no additional action is taken by the caster. You don't need explosive runes to trigger itself, fiendish hawks can actually read explosive runes.

Get 1d4+1 fiendish hawks (SMIII), get 1d4+1 explosive runes, and you have Deophaun's smart bombs. Expected damage 12d6 to 30d6 force, no save, with a few days' prep. Basically the D&D equivalent of drone-bombing.

(Thanks for the trick, Deophaun!)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Creatures next to the runes (close enough to read) take 6d6 damage, no save. You can prep explosive runes on scrap paper ahead of time, on days you have third-level slots remaining. The birds use a move action to pick up on their first turn, no additional action is taken by the caster. You don't need explosive runes to trigger itself, fiendish hawks can actually read explosive runes.

Get 1d4+1 fiendish hawks (SMIII), get 1d4+1 explosive runes, and you have Deophaun's smart bombs. Expected damage 12d6 to 30d6 force, no save, with a few days' prep. Basically the D&D equivalent of drone-bombing.

(Thanks for the trick, Deophaun!)

I know how Explosive Runes works, thank you. I'm just disagreeing on the "close enough to read" part unless you plan to have your hawks land on your targets head.
Remember that in combat movement is assumed, so they're not holding still. Unless a player has a really good argument or the enemy triggers the runes themselves i'm going with save for half.

I'm also disagreeing on the "no action on the casters part is needed" part unless your Explosive Runes notes are already on the ground ready for pick up.
Otherwise in most cases drawing an item (like a pre-prepared note with ER) is a move action.
I suppose you could attach them to your clothing somewhere, but then you'd better hope nobody accidentally reads them or that the hawks don't tear them when they grab them since they'd necessarily have to rip them off.

You're also not using SM1 with this, which is what started the argument. Because summoning the hawks one by one with SM1 is simply too slow for most situations.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Unless a player has a really good argument or the enemy triggers the runes themselves i'm going with save for half.

Fiendish hawks are Tiny. They can enter a Medium opponent's square (have to, in fact) and activate the runes. No save!

I'm also disagreeing on the "no action on the casters part is needed" part unless your Explosive Runes notes are already on the ground ready for pick up.

I was thinking a staff with charms of some kind, tied on with thin string, and inscribing the runes on the insides of the charms. Looks really awesome, too.

You're also not using SM1 with this, which is what started the argument. Because summoning the hawks one by one with SM1 is simply too slow for most situations.

It's good for blowing up things at a distance (grab + move 60' on the first round, 240' per round after that, 60' move + activation on final round), even with SMI. A solid opening strike, not a reactive tactic. If fiendish hawks can do this, expeditious messengers are much better at it (much longer duration, smaller, much faster). An expeditious messenger can move through chimneys at 100' per round, for example.


SMI is a support spell, useful for flanking and blocking in combat, and trapfinding out of combat. At higher levels, it scales in duration, and that improves its function, but it is not useful as damaging spell.
The same is true of summon marked homunculus, except that its initial duration and the ranged attack are such that you can get multiple attacks out of one and have multiple, making it useful as direct damage. At higher levels, it mutates into a pure support spell, and remains useful for a long time (CL 8+: summon a dedicated wright: save 7 hours of item crafting with a first-level slot).


Summon marked homunculus is definitely a stronger spell than SMI, and I don't see why it would scale any worse than other summoning spells. It just changes its primary function.

[blackwindbears]

Thanks for showing me my mistake. So Arbalesters cannot avoid the being in cover penalty.

I think the thread is taking a wrong turn. I'm looking for ways to deal with these three player's salt instead of the player summoning the homunculi because he's using the spell as intended and the spell is in a 3.5 book. So I'm not nerfing or banning anything.

Generally it's a bad idea to use campaign specific books outside of the campaign setting. You'd be perfectly reasonable to allow all *generic* 3.5 books.

We just played our first 1st level game and three players, one archer rogue, one summon monster sorcerer, and one archer ranger, messaged me that Summon Marked Homunculus is absolute BS. Their reasons included: Arbalesters have +7 to hit at level 1 while they're at +4-5, they have Point Blank Shot, you can summon up to 4 at level 1, Expeditious Messenger is too good of a scout, and that their 1hour/level duration is just BS when all the other summoning spells last 1round/level.

The sorcerer that is casting summon marked homunculus is carrying an arbalester, has one riding him, and has one being carried by an expeditious messenger.

They're calling BS because you get iterative attacks at level 6, yet this sorcerer is shooting 3 shots a round at +7 and he'll be shooting 4 shots a round next level.

I explained to them that these guys don't get precise shot so they will have -4 to their attack most of the time, and enemies also have cover from his attack at -8, but then they said the sorcerer can summon expeditious messengers to carry the arbalesters above the enemies to avoid the cover penalty and be in range of point blank shot, before using their 2nd move action to fly far away, and he gets one more arbalester every level which is total BS.

How do I deal with the situation? The summon marked homunculus sorcerer isn't exactly abusing the rules as he is using those spells as intended so I don't want to do anything to him but the salt coming from these three players is very real.

First off, never ever allow retraining of a feat tax.

Second, why does he have so many arbalesters? Doesn't he have like 4 spells per day?
Are you certain expeditious messenger can carry all these arbalesters?

Also, villains should probably preferentially target the crossbow nest wandering around.

I would rule that a carried arbalester loses its dex bonus to ac.

Dispel magic makes him lose all of his spells per day at once, what are they fighting? If I was fighting them I'd acquire a scroll as fast as I could.

But the one thing that needs to happen is you need to talk to him and explain that the power level is out of line. There will be in game consequences for this, but give him a chance to disarm on his own.

(Also, why would all of the four fights per day happen in the one hour he has all those arbalesters up?)

Edit: Really you should only be setting up encounters for him to do this one encounter per day. If they decide to shove more encounters into the hour those should be in addition to the default 4. Spending a few encounters doing nothing will encourage him to spread this out.

One of them per encounter is far more reasonable.

[PunBlake]

How exactly are six EM's supposed to carry an Arbalester?

It could be carried by an African EM.

This got me.

OP, the way to fix "the salt" without nerfing is the same way you fix every game balance problem in D&D: redesign.

Option 1: Change your encounters. Change timing for spell duration. Ambush. Have a monster run away to warn his compatriots of the summoned death robot(s) and have those allies take cover / prepare defenses. A well-used scroll of Shatter can bust a construct. Silence or readied archers can stop a spell from being cast in the first place. Maybe an Armor Crystal of Arrow Deflection (MIC) for a boss? These are just the low-hanging fruit. As a DM, you always design encounters to fit the group you have, and you have every right to tweak any modules you're running. Your goal is to make things fun for everyone, and that means challenging for everyone.

Option 2: Hold a design forum. Talk to your whole group at once (with you being a moderator and only allowing one person to talk at once) about the fact that no one but the caster likes this spell as written and redesign it based on everyone's input, including the caster. This isn't nerfing; it's making a house-rule to increase fun. You could always drop the attack bonus on the summoned arbalester and have it scale slightly with caster level.

Option 3: Why not both?

Option 4: The dreaded talk. Tell your caster one-on-one that SMH is reducing enjoyment for the rest of the table and ask that he choose a different spell known or use it less. I don't like this one, but it is a valid solution.

[gogogome]

I am running Age of Worms which is designed for players to Nova since the encounters are significantly more difficult than a standard AP. There were three wolves, one advanced, as first level encounter, a swarm of beetles as a 2nd encounter, surprise ray of sleep 3rd encounter, and an underwater fight against a ghoul with paralysis on touch. So spreading the encounters out over the day is not an option as the AP does not support that.

[blackwindbears]

I am running Age of Worms which is designed for players to Nova since the encounters are significantly more difficult than a standard AP. There were three wolves, one advanced, as first level encounter, a swarm of beetles as a 2nd encounter, surprise ray of sleep 3rd encounter, and an underwater fight against a ghoul with paralysis on touch. So spreading the encounters out over the day is not an option as the AP does not support that.

Well then, there is your problem. Whispering cairn was released a year before Dragonmarked was. In no sense was this adventure balanced with the ability that is creating problems in mind.

Thus you need to revise age of worms to add more random encounters or limit players to sourcebooks released during the period your adventure path was balanced for.

Also, I ran Whispering Cairn for my group and don't remember any sort of nova requirements. Let me look at my notes later and see if there's anything that can help.

Edit: At the very least the acid beetles couldn't be killed by the homunculi. They're immune to weapon damage. How did the party end up dealing with them?

[Deophaun]

Well then, there is your problem. Whispering cairn was released a year before Dragonmarked was. In no sense was this adventure balanced with the ability that is creating problems in mind.

This is silly. "Sorry guys, we can't have small dungeons anymore because there's a spell that tosses out a turret that lasts an hour/level that is mildly competitive with a 1st-level archer. All low level encounters must now be spaced out over the course of a week."

Considering that the arbalester does jack all against some of the worst that the Cairn has to offer (swarms, traps, and the thing(s) they haven't gotten to yet) and that the battlefields aren't exactly in open terrain where range is a whole issue, I'd say it's accidentally balanced pretty well.

But OMG wolves aren't balanced for it. BAN!

[RoboEmperor]

Edit: At the very least the acid beetles couldn't be killed by the homunculi. They're immune to weapon damage. How did the party end up dealing with them?

Homunculi blow up when they die doing 1d6 damage to everything around them.

[blackwindbears]

This is silly. "Sorry guys, we can't have small dungeons anymore because there's a spell that tosses out a turret that lasts an hour/level that is mildly competitive with a 1st-level archer. All low level encounters must now be spaced out over the course of a week."

Considering that the arbalester does jack all against some of the worst that the Cairn has to offer (swarms, traps, and the thing(s) they haven't gotten to yet) and that the battlefields aren't exactly in open terrain where range is a whole issue, I'd say it's accidentally balanced pretty well.

But OMG wolves aren't balanced for it. BAN!

He's got a party full of people unhappy about it, the spell is wildly out of line with similar spells, your plan is ignore the players?

[Deophaun]

He's got a party full of people unhappy about it, the spell is wildly out of line with similar spells, your plan is ignore the players?

We went from "The Cairn is not balanced to handle a spell that puts arrows into things" to "the players are unhappy!"

I will take this massive move of the goalposts as an admission that you realize your initial complaint was, indeed, silly.

This issue is that the party has two "put arrows into things" guys, and the wizard is stepping on both the "put arrows into things" guys' toes.

It's not that the Cairn isn't balanced around it.

[blackwindbears]

We went from "The Cairn is not balanced to handle a spell that puts arrows into things" to "the players are unhappy!"

I will take this massive move of the goalposts as an admission that you realize your initial complaint was, indeed, silly.

This issue is that the party has two "put arrows into things" guys, and the wizard is stepping on both the "put arrows into things" guys' toes.

It's not that the Cairn isn't balanced around it.

That was in OP's post. D&D is balanced around the assumption of 4 encounters per day. It does look like the cairn shouldn't have much of a problem with this which is why I asked for more detail.

I don't find you wildly exaggerating what I'm saying to be particularly useful ("mildly competing with an Archer" (3x as many actions at a higher attack bonus's :eyeroll:), "space encounters out over a week"), do you?

[RoboEmperor]

How exactly are six EM's supposed to carry an Arbalester?
Their carrying capacity may allow it, but the logistics of 6 separate creatures trying to carry one would make it at least very difficult if not impossible to effectively maneuver in combat.

As a DM i'd allow that kind of thing to airlift someone up a ledge or over a chasm - simple, straight-line movement - but in combat? No way.

The creatures all have telepathy with its creator so coordination should be easy as long as it's straightforward and not sudden sharp jerks.