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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    Why would they be from the assimilated nation? The royal family and a big chunk of the nobility could be of whatever racial background because that's what the original Nilfgaardians were before they started the empire business. There's ample precedent for that in our history. Hell, the ''emperor with ties to a conquered nation'' thing also has precedent, at least 1 roman emperor was at least half north african, and Alexander the Great married 3 women from the middle-east and central asia, so if any of his sons had succeeded him they would also have been darker than macedonians.

    Anyway, the best argument I've seen is that Witcher is based on slavic history and myths and therefore it's disrespectful to that culture to cast black people, but I find that argument disingenuous because the same people aren't protesting an extremely british man playing Geralt and race and culture aren't the same thing, something slavic people usually tend to bring up in that kind of discussion. Therefore the controversy continues to bore me.
    I could almost buy into that argument if there was a Slavic actress who was being passed over for the role, but im not especially impressed by it otherwise.
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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    People reeeaaally overstate how "Slavic" the world of the Witcher is.
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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    People reeeaaally overstate how "Slavic" the world of the Witcher is.
    And if anything what I always pictured to be "Slavic" are the small northern kingdoms where Geralt runs around. Nilfgaard is a fantasy Ottoman empire that conquered "Europe" and is closing in on these kingdoms, neither in the books' lore nor in the real world analogies are NIlfgaardian supposed to be "Slavic".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Having the Emperor of Nilfgaard be from some assimilated nation seems...unlikely.
    The Roman Empire has at time been led by spaniards, bulgarians and one time by a syrian man. I don't see that as particularly unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    Why would they be from the assimilated nation? The royal family and a big chunk of the nobility could be of whatever racial background because that's what the original Nilfgaardians were before they started the empire business. There's ample precedent for that in our history. Hell, the ''emperor with ties to a conquered nation'' thing also has precedent, at least 1 roman emperor was at least half north african, and Alexander the Great married 3 women from the middle-east and central asia, so if any of his sons had succeeded him they would also have been darker than macedonians.

    Anyway, the best argument I've seen is that Witcher is based on slavic history and myths and therefore it's disrespectful to that culture to cast black people, but I find that argument disingenuous because the same people aren't protesting an extremely british man playing Geralt and race and culture aren't the same thing, something slavic people usually tend to bring up in that kind of discussion. Therefore the controversy continues to bore me.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    Anyway, the best argument I've seen is that Witcher is based on slavic history and myths and therefore it's disrespectful to that culture to cast black people, but I find that argument disingenuous because the same people aren't protesting an extremely british man playing Geralt and race and culture aren't the same thing, something slavic people usually tend to bring up in that kind of discussion. Therefore the controversy continues to bore me.
    The Witcher has always had it's roots in more of a pan-european mythology type of deal rather than slavic history specifically. As much as people like to call it a serious story for serious people and as much as it tries to take itself seriously it's not even rooted in mythology so much as Grimm's fairy tales made kind of edgy. Curses and magic in this series were very much rooted in things like true loves kisses and enchanted castles and towers that do cool stuff on their own, at least initially. Actual named spellcasters who do their own thing don't even show up until towards the tail end of the first book and that's still just an evil wizard chasing after some bint with seven dwarves and Yennifer showing up to harass a genie over three wishes. It's not a hardcore mythological series by any means and I highly doubt anyone claiming it has has ever read the books, or even paid attention to the games.

    At the end of the day my concern isn't even that Ciri is black. It's that Ciri isn't black. The casting call doesn't specify any race except for essentially anyone who isn't white. If they wanted a black Ciri that'd be another matter entirely to me. As an independent filmmaker and as an artist I'm generally very anal rentive about designs and casting. To me a characters race isn't something you just throw around however you feel like because it makes an actual difference when you're actually getting the production made. Different skin tones and hair textures mean someone will look good in very different colors and styles. You have to light that person differently, sometimes with a whole separate setup, or it won't look as good.

    On top of that look at the points other posters are making. This is a fantasy series. Is this a kingdom where everyone else is also that race? Does this change the art direction of that location in any real way? How about neighboring kingdoms? Is everything up in the air?

    I'm mostly overthinking this, obviously, but these are very real problems that must be resolved and I'm getting the impression that if they're coming to light now as they're this close to production there may be other issues.
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    Yeah fair enough... I'll agree that the whole ''any minority'' thing is creepy in general, and in particular if the leaked casting call is true and they didn't cast Ciri first before figuring the whole thing out it doesn't bode well for the show's internal consistency. IMO the fact that the showrunner was also the showrunner for Defenders is a bigger cause for concern though, Defenders wasn't great.
    Last edited by thorgrim29; 2018-09-10 at 01:06 PM.
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    I didn't know about the Showrunner. That's... not good news.

    In a sense "throw it in there and figure it out later" is standard for television. A lot of serial writers have no idea what they're doing with a plot element when first introduced. You generally only get like four episodes worth of story done before production starts catching up to you and that can be a recipie for disaster if you have 20+ to write. Hence why the CW hero shows have so much forced drama and secrets even the characters speaking clearly don't know except to imply they have a secret, because the writer hasn't thought that far ahead.

    That's why Netflix shows are expected to be better. It's one lump release and production and you're expected to have it figured out ahead of time. But if this isnt the case then there's no real point.
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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    He's not a BAD actor, but nothing I've ever seen him in really made me think he had that much depth as an actor.

    He'll probably do an acceptable, but not fantastic job. And honestly with live action video game adaptations that's enough to put it in the top 10% already.
    I don't think it really takes a lot of acting talent to pull off Geralt. He doesn't really show a huge range of emotion normally. He's basically a generic stoic warrior guy, and Cavill has already shown he can pull that off with the DCU Superman (unfortunately). I think he'll do fine for Geralt, but I don't think the show will be very good no matter who the actors are.

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    Hmmmm... Geralt is a bit more tricky than generic emotionless warrior guy, he needs an actor that will be able to sell that his facade is that but that there's a lot going on beneath the surface... I wonder if they tried to get the guy who did Logan and Godless to take the helm, it's his kind of protagonist.
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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    Hmmmm... Geralt is a bit more tricky than generic emotionless warrior guy, he needs an actor that will be able to sell that his facade is that but that there's a lot going on beneath the surface... I wonder if they tried to get the guy who did Logan and Godless to take the helm, it's his kind of protagonist.
    I never really felt that Geralt had all that much going on beneath the surface. He's not completely generic or anything, but he's hardly an original character that you'd need a fantastic actor for either. I've only read one of the novels, and I never played the second game, so I'm sure I'm not getting the full depth of the character though.

    Then again, I didn't particularly enjoy the book I read or the games, so that's probably coloring my perception.

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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Didn't care for Henry Cavill in The Count of Monte Cristo, but he was still pretty young. Then I saw him in Immortals and thought he was still pretty bad. He's okay as Superman, for the material he was given.

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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I didn't know about the Showrunner. That's... not good news.

    In a sense "throw it in there and figure it out later" is standard for television. A lot of serial writers have no idea what they're doing with a plot element when first introduced. You generally only get like four episodes worth of story done before production starts catching up to you and that can be a recipie for disaster if you have 20+ to write. Hence why the CW hero shows have so much forced drama and secrets even the characters speaking clearly don't know except to imply they have a secret, because the writer hasn't thought that far ahead.

    That's why Netflix shows are expected to be better. It's one lump release and production and you're expected to have it figured out ahead of time. But if this isnt the case then there's no real point.
    This is a heck of a lot different than that though. It shows where their priorities are - and their main priorities are apparently NOT to faithfully adapt the characters.

    It would be a whole different deal if they had picked a good actress regardless of race. Then you're picking somebody you think can represent the character. Probably the best GOOD example of this is Samuel Jackson playing Nick Fury. Now, in the comics, Nick Fury is white. But Samuel Jackson WORKS as Fury because he's a badass, and does a great job of embodying the Fury from the comics. Marvel went looking for somebody that would do a great job playing Nick Fury, and they found him.

    But they didn't do a casting call generically looking for black actors to play Nick Fury. Which would have been EXACTLY the wrong way to go about it, and I guarantee somebody like Samuel Jackson wouldn't have shown up for that casting call.

    And that's exactly what they're doing here. They don't have an open casting call, and then picked the best person they felt would represent the character, even if its a minority that doesn't necessarily looks like Ciri. They STARTED from a position of, "find a minority to play Ciri'.

    And given that they coupled that with things that seem to paint Ciri as the lead of the series, along with some really questionable statements by the showrunner and writers, and from what I see this is shaping up to be a disaster of a series.

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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    This is a heck of a lot different than that though. It shows where their priorities are - and their main priorities are apparently NOT to faithfully adapt the characters.

    It would be a whole different deal if they had picked a good actress regardless of race. Then you're picking somebody you think can represent the character. Probably the best GOOD example of this is Samuel Jackson playing Nick Fury. Now, in the comics, Nick Fury is white. But Samuel Jackson WORKS as Fury because he's a badass, and does a great job of embodying the Fury from the comics. Marvel went looking for somebody that would do a great job playing Nick Fury, and they found him.

    But they didn't do a casting call generically looking for black actors to play Nick Fury. Which would have been EXACTLY the wrong way to go about it, and I guarantee somebody like Samuel Jackson wouldn't have shown up for that casting call.

    And that's exactly what they're doing here. They don't have an open casting call, and then picked the best person they felt would represent the character, even if its a minority that doesn't necessarily looks like Ciri. They STARTED from a position of, "find a minority to play Ciri'.

    And given that they coupled that with things that seem to paint Ciri as the lead of the series, along with some really questionable statements by the showrunner and writers, and from what I see this is shaping up to be a disaster of a series.
    I think it was more like Ultimate Marvel was already using Samual L Jackson's likeness as Ultimate Nick Fury - for whatever reason - so they just cast him (actually thy probably just asked him and he practically jumped for it) in the like-action MCU. But they were casting him because, he was, well, Samual L Jackson specifically. He's one of those actors (like BRIAN BLESSED) I am convinced you could cast as literally anything and it would be good.



    On the whole black Nilfgaard thing... I am compelled to point out that there is no reason Nilfgaard can't be both black and the bad guys (sic), because everyone deserves a chance to be the bad guys occasionally, regardless of genetic make-up. (And why shouldn't they? Being the bad guy is so much more fun.) There isn't some law that says all bad guys have to be white British people (even though the British ARE good at it...)

    You can make the arguement that Nilfgaard can't be black because geography says wrong ethnicity for the time period, but you can't really say they can't be black because bad guy - I mean, that line of thinking gets perilously close to "the bad guys have to be white" which is equally potentially problematic itself.

    (Though that assumes a level of thought has gone into it, not just tokenly tick-boxing the main cast.)
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2018-09-10 at 06:10 PM.

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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    And if anything what I always pictured to be "Slavic" are the small northern kingdoms where Geralt runs around. Nilfgaard is a fantasy Ottoman empire that conquered "Europe" and is closing in on these kingdoms, neither in the books' lore nor in the real world analogies are NIlfgaardian supposed to be "Slavic".
    I was under the impression that Nilfgaard was meant to be the Holy Roman Empire expy - which makes sense given the long history of aggression the Germans have had towards their Slavic (and especially Polish) neighbours.

    Their are African and Middle Eastern equivalents in the Witcher universe, but they are distant, on the other side of the Nilfgaard Empire and as such seldom seen in the north but they do crop up from time to time.

    Given that, if they wanted diversity, they could have used someone from down there, places like Zerrikania, Haakland, Hannu, Ofir or elsewhere, and have them be a visitor to the north.

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    That might be it. It might be both, I also saw Balkan undertones in the kingdoms and invasions but that might be my background.

    In any case, with the Holy Roman Empire model, the Slavic analogy is even more off. Poland would be one of the northern kingdoms---but Silesia was German-speaking until 70 years ago. And Bohemia was a Czech-speaking kingdom, but it was a part of the HRE and had a prince elector of the Empire. Not to say that it's not inspired by the military history of Poland, of course it is. But whereas I can see the conflicts and battles based on Poland-HRE conflict, Nilfgaard always seemed more foreign.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2018-09-11 at 04:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    On the whole black Nilfgaard thing... I am compelled to point out that there is no reason Nilfgaard can't be both black and the bad guys (sic), because everyone deserves a chance to be the bad guys occasionally, regardless of genetic make-up. (And why shouldn't they? Being the bad guy is so much more fun.) There isn't some law that says all bad guys have to be white British people (even though the British ARE good at it...)

    You can make the arguement that Nilfgaard can't be black because geography says wrong ethnicity for the time period, but you can't really say they can't be black because bad guy - I mean, that line of thinking gets perilously close to "the bad guys have to be white" which is equally potentially problematic itself.
    The only problem with Nilfgaard being racially black is the epithet used for them in the games/books (where they are not black) is "The Black Ones" ("the Blacks" if you translate literally from Polish). It would change the connotation of the epithet and imply a racism in the Northern Kingdoms which isn't the actual case. They're only called that because of their black plate armor and the black feathers they used to decorate it.
    Last edited by Chen; 2018-09-11 at 08:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    The only problem with Nilfgaard being racially black is the epithet used for them in the games/books (where they are not black) is "The Black Ones" ("the Blacks" if you translate literally from Polish). It would change the connotation of the epithet and imply a racism in the Northern Kingdoms which isn't the actual case. They're only called that because of their black plate armor and the black feathers they used to decorate it.
    So if they were cauasian and were called the "White Ones" because they had white armour, it would also be impliying racism?

    Could Sauron (or any other Dark Lord) never be played by a black guy?

    I think that disqulifying any group of one ethnicity from being presented as a group named after a colour because it happens to be vaguely similar to the Western world's incorrect human-skin colour terminology is a bit... Stupid. Especially in something which is an adaption of an already existing thing.

    I think there comes a point where giving more regard to incorrect human colour terminolgy (humans are not actually white or black, they are off-pink to brown1) over actual colour terminology - in ANY direction - is itself as problematic as the thing it is trying to not be. I would go as far as to say by underlining that, it inherently makes it okay to make that divide between people, which is wrong, I feel as an equalist.

    A spade is sometimes just a spade - and I think that sometimes, that needs to be re-iterated.



    It might, at this point, be worth asking what - if anything - the lore calls various skin-colours and assuming it is not exactly the same as in English (since the native language is Polish - I don't know whather it's the same or not).



    But a), this is skating close to board rules and b) I have the feeling that we may be giving it far more consideration that the show is likely to have, if what people are saying is true.



    1Am I fairly sure if correct colour terminology was globally enforced, the sillyness-sounding of it would debunk a lot of problems - "off-pink supremacists" doesn't sound like anything other than a bad joke, does it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    So if they were cauasian and were called the "White Ones" because they had white armour, it would also be impliying racism?
    A more salient example is the White Devil trope. Yes, it has racist connotations both ways.

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    "Black Ones" produces an immediate racial connotation (particularly for people who are not familiar with the work) because of how the Western world identifies people of certain racial backgrounds. So yes, if you make the entire empire of "Black Ones" racially black, the general public is going to assume the name came from some racial connotation. Sure if society didn't identify races as "black" and "white" it wouldn't be an issue. But that is how we identify these things and thus the issue. Now if EVERYONE cast were black it would work since if one set of black people called another set of black people "Black Ones", you're going to assume they're referring to something other than skin color. But even if it's evident they're in black armor or the like, people in today's society are going to think "race" when they here some non-black people calling a group of black people "Black Ones". That's a pitfall the show should probably avoid if it wants to succeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Its not impossible that Ciri and her father are black or Hispanic even if theyre still a minority in Nilfgaard. Asian seems... unlikely to me, since the Witcher series lacks an analogue anywhere near the main region of the books.
    The one description we have for her father called him "pale", but the more important thing is that Ciri managed to pass for a regular child. If she was black (or half-black) she'd kinda stand out in the Northern Kingdoms...
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    Huh. Because of this I might watch the show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    The one description we have for her father called him "pale", but the more important thing is that Ciri managed to pass for a regular child. If she was black (or half-black) she'd kinda stand out in the Northern Kingdoms...
    I don't recall Ciri ever passing for a normal child. Indeed, they mention that her ashen hair is rather unusual, being used as one of her more distinguishing features.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    The one description we have for her father called him "pale", but the more important thing is that Ciri managed to pass for a regular child. If she was black (or half-black) she'd kinda stand out in the Northern Kingdoms...
    That actually relates to a key secondary question. Are they going to simply cast a small number of non-white people in lead roles, or are they going to completely remake the setting to make it much more diverse overall? The latter approach has seen some use recently - for example in MCU Asgard or the live-action Beauty and the Beast movie. That allows non-white characters to fit in fairly seamlessly, but it has the side effect of eroding ethnicity as a cultural marker for storytelling purposes. I don't know enough about the Witcher to say what kind of impacts this would have on the lore, but in most quasi-medieval settings it would be non-zero.
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    I know that The Witcher games (Which, yes it was a well regarded and expansive book series before the games, but the games are most people's exposure to the franchise), were criticized for having the world consist exclusively of white people (There were a few arabic/turkish equivalents in the Hearts Of Stone DLC). This might be representing a deliberate effort to head that off at the pass. As people have mentioned, The Witcher series (At least in the games) sits pretty strongly on the pan-european fantasy aesthetic.

    As for the Casting, my guess is the you generally cast the central characters first, and then cast any of their relations as appropriate. Also, it's fantasy, historical correctness isn't remotely relevant. There were far more black people in medieval Europe than there were elves, dwarves, or potatoes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    That actually relates to a key secondary question. Are they going to simply cast a small number of non-white people in lead roles, or are they going to completely remake the setting to make it much more diverse overall? The latter approach has seen some use recently - for example in MCU Asgard or the live-action Beauty and the Beast movie. That allows non-white characters to fit in fairly seamlessly, but it has the side effect of eroding ethnicity as a cultural marker for storytelling purposes. I don't know enough about the Witcher to say what kind of impacts this would have on the lore, but in most quasi-medieval settings it would be non-zero.
    Well, in the Witcher games, just about everybody was White, so Ethnicity was never used as a cultural marker in the first place. My guess is they're going to take the Asgard approach, and just present a fantasy world with an ethnic makeup that roughly matches the modern United States. Let Elves and Dwarves serve as stand-ins for ethnic minorities.

    As for creative reasons why, I can think of a few besides a desire to make the cast more diverse.


    1) Clearly separate the TV show from the books and the games. A clear statement/reminder that this adaptation isn't necessarily trying to tell the same story that the books or games were. The Witcher as a concept is fertile ground for all sorts of stories, not just the ones explored in the games. If the cast doesn't look like their in-game counterparts, people are more likely to accept the series on it's own merits, rather than as a re-enactment of the games that Keeps Getting Things Wrong. I mean, that's a theory anyway. It's worked decently for comic book adaptations, most people have accepted that MCU Heimdall is Idris Elba.

    2) Make it visually clear that Ciri is not Geralt's biological daughter, without needing to constantly reference backstory/setting details. Them being related is not a hard assumption to make if you look at their in-game models and interactions. Having them be different ethnicities is an easy way to establish to/remind the viewer that they're not biologically related.

    3) They don't want her to look like Dany from Game of Thrones.

    4) Maybe they want to visually reinforce the idea of Ciri as a unique individual with powerful magic baked into her very nature. White hair and darker complexion (Ala Storm from the X-Men) could serve as a nice visual reminder that she's got a little more strangeness to her than your average Spunky Girl Sidekick.



    Edit: my guess is that, regardless, they'll do away with referring to the Niflgardians as "Black Ones". It's easy enough to just call them "Nilfgardians" or "Imperials" or what have you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    3) They don't want her to look like Dany from Game of Thrones.
    Yeah that's a good point, didn't even consider that since I stopped watching GoT a few seasons ago but they're going to get hit with ''Netflix GoT'' enough without the main ''special girl'' character being a white teenage girl with white hair.
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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The very first book (well, series of short stories) The Last Wish has his healer friend comment on how he let his guard down when he fought the striga. Its never really made clear if Geralt is actually slowing down or if a concerned friend is just telling him he should stop throwing himself at monsters.
    Geralt was also really vague about what the contract entailed--he didn't say he had to grapple the striga into submission, which is what caused his injury, as far as I can remember.
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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Pseudo-Tolkienian elves, dwarves and dragons in a fantasy world based on "slavic" myths and folklore, that's just fine; but black people? Now that's just crazy talk. The internet never ceases to amaze.

    People ought to remember that, historically, Europe used to be quite a bit more diverse than the common narrative leads them to believe.

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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post


    Well, in the Witcher games, just about everybody was White, so Ethnicity was never used as a cultural marker in the first place. My guess is they're going to take the Asgard approach, and just present a fantasy world with an ethnic makeup that roughly matches the modern United States. Let Elves and Dwarves serve as stand-ins for ethnic minorities.
    That is such an American thing to say.^^ In a fantasy medival thing the main divider isn't white and black. There are loads of Ethnic groups among people in the white grouping. (Yes some black people existed there as well but afaik were rather minor minorities.)

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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    I mean, yes, there were the occasional black people in medieval Europe, but I'd expect them to be pretty rare in Central European nobility. Especially as Emperors.

    Look, I'm not especially opposed to having black people in this, but having the offspring of the Emperor be black creates a ton of knock-on effects. And I don't think this was especially thought through, either. It feels like stunt casting for controversy, instead of something done for world building.
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    Default Re: The Witcher is literally a Superman

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    Geralt was also really vague about what the contract entailed--he didn't say he had to grapple the striga into submission, which is what caused his injury, as far as I can remember.
    Probably because he didn't. He kept it at bay, then snuck into her coffin and magically sealed it shut over the night. She couldn't break in because a striga needs to spend time in her coffin or the curse is broken. But when he woke up, he was inspecting the seemingly unconscious princess to make sure she was all the way transformed, and she got a surprise attack that tore up his throat a bit.

    The first game had a really cool cinematic made of the encounter that's fairly accurate to the books.
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