Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering

[LansXero]

So like a kited-out Gallant, or choppier? he is proxying those two (so he knows what to ask for as a gift) so Im guessing a knight as a stand-in will be fine? or is it bigger?

[Cheesegear]

His parents are buying him one thing from Forgeworld for christmas, so he wants to try this thing called a 'Kythan'

A Kytan, is unsurprisingly, a Chaos Titan. Or, more accurately, it's a Lord of Skulls on legs. They aren't as strong as they used to be, because Imperial/Renegade Knights got themselves a Codex and now have Dominus Class Knights.

However, since Renegade Knights don't get...Anything at all. A Kytan at least comes with the <Heretic Astartes> Keyword, and there's a whole host of benefits that come with that. The most notable, of course, is being eligible to be Warptime'd. Another major factor in the Kytan's favour is that it's a Lord of Skulls, which means that it also gets its invulnerable in Melee, too. Honestly I can't really tell the difference between it and a Lord of Skulls. It only exists because the current Lord of Skulls on tracks/wheels looks really, really, really stupid, and Forge World pretty much made the exact same model, but with legs instead. It Advances 2d6"? I know Kytans get the <HA> Keyword, but if they get the <Legion> Keyword, too, they can be <Renegade> for Advance and Charge in the same turn? ...Honestly, who cares? Warptime gives you two Movements.

and a Storm Eagle Assault Ship (is that like a larger Stormraven?)

Pretty much. It's not any tougher than a Stormraven, and it doesn't exactly carry more guns, either.
However, Chaos players love it, since it has a Transport of 20, which allows for a poop-ton of Berzerkers that can't be shot at on Turn 1, and will be in Melee on Turn 2.
IMO <Alpha Legion> is better.

The real one you should look out for, and the one that gets vetoed out of tournaments all the time is the Fire Raptor.

Late last year and early this year there was some contention about people converting up their own Fire Raptors, except the vast majority of them looked really bad, and didn't fit size conventions, and TOs weren't letting people bring their kit-bashed Fire Raptors. Some people say that it was a blatent attempt of TOs saying that they didn't want to ban Fire Raptors, but they were banning Fire Raptors. I, myself, take the TOs' arguments at face value. If you're going to convert up one of the most broken models Forge World has ever made, get the ****ing size right, and at least try to make it look not like garbage you stuck together.

- I can play Imperium (guard, knights, sisters, DAs)
- I can play Eldar (any flavor or mix)
- I can play Necrons (would T-vaults be any good?)

Not really. Once you go outside of the 1500-2000 Point bracket, considerations like 'Cheaper is better' kind of go out the window, because you know have the points to play with to take whatever toys you want...Thus, just take everything good-to-broken that you own, that you never really take in 'real' games because you never have the points for it. However, cheaper is still better.

Also, do you get 4 detachments in 3000 points?

And a datasheet cap of 4! Woo!

Make sure to switch it up with your Factions, though. Each Faction in your army only uses about 10 CPs in a normal game. There are only a few good Stratagems per Codex, and no matter how many points you play, you can't get around the once per phase rule.

I once said "Command Points win games." to a guy, he took that literally, and he came back a few days later telling me how he made a double Brigade Guard list, and I was like "Why though?" Guard are going to use like...Six of those. The reason that the Guard Brigade/BA Battalion/Knight list worked so well, is that the BAs were chewing through at least 8 CPs by the end of Turn 2, and the Knight used like...3 per turn. What are Guardsmen, alone, going to do with ~30 CPs?

Point is, multi-Faction armies always do better in high point games. This is especially true for Necrons. The higher the points limit, the worse they get. It actually makes me really sad that Necrons' sweet spot is like...1250.

[Professor Gnoll]

Honestly I can't really tell the difference between it and a Lord of Skulls. It only exists because the current Lord of Skulls on tracks/wheels looks really, really, really stupid, and Forge World pretty much made the exact same model, but with legs instead.

They didn't even make a new model, the Kytan kit is literally just the sprues for the top part of a Lord of Skulls with FW-made resin legs.

[LansXero]

And a datasheet cap of 4! Woo!

Make sure to switch it up with your Factions, though. Each Faction in your army only uses about 10 CPs in a normal game. There are only a few good Stratagems per Codex, and no matter how many points you play, you can't get around the once per phase rule.

Point is, multi-Faction armies always do better in high point games. This is especially true for Necrons. The higher the points limit, the worse they get. It actually makes me really sad that Necrons' sweet spot is like...1250.

Curiously enough, there is 2 vs 2 tournament coming up in two weeks, with 1250 per player. What does a 1250 Necron list look like? Could you share?

As for factions, Im honestly at a loss. I could bring all Eldar Airforce and run circles around his melee after crimson-hunterin his transports off the sky, but that seems like too heavy tailoring. I could go 3x shadowswords again to prove a point that if loyal knights cant handle it, traitor ones wont either, but then if he goes first Im probably screwed and again seems too "screw you, go ask for a leviathan". Actually, I can go 4x shadowswords now, right? :D

[The Patterner]

They didn't even make a new model, the Kytan kit is literally just the sprues for the top part of a Lord of Skulls with FW-made resin legs.

Which also explains why it looks kinda goofy.

I tried converting one by sticking a broken Lord of skulls torso on a pair of knight legs, after having switched the arms and added some additional armour plates it looked alright I guess.

[Cheesegear]

Curiously enough, there is 2 vs 2 tournament coming up in two weeks, with 1250 per player. What does a 1250 Necron list look like? Could you share?

So...What you're really asking there, is, what's 1250 Points of Necrons that goes well with [whatever Faction partner is bringing]. You're playing a 2500 point game, there.

Since that's your real question, I went to a doubles tournament a few months ago, and I've got another one next week. I will be playing Necrons. My doubles list contains 11 Destroyers and 6 Wraiths. How do I score? I don't. My partner is bringing ~100 Chaos Cultists that don't take Morale tests, my partner is bringing at least one model able to cast Death Hex, so with Extermination Protocols we can bring down any Knight - or at least cripple it out of the game - in a single turn. Nice Custodes Jetbikes...They're all dead.

Death Hex is one of the most broken Powers in the current meta. But, Chaos being Chaos, they don't really have anything to capitalise on it with. Bring in Destroyers, with re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to wound, AP-3 and D3 Damage apiece...Suddenly everyone is in trouble. But also, my partner doesn't have to focus on killing anything, because I've got that covered. He's got the ~700 Points on our Team worth of scoring presence.

A singles list is 18 Destroyers and change. But at 1250, you can realistically table someone. You're not going to be tabling anyone at 2500 Points.

I mean...Let's be real. Whatever list you make, always have as many Destroyers as you can.

Outrider; 18 Destroyers runs you 900 Points. A Cryptek with a Cloak is less than a hundred.

You've got 1000 Points of killy death right there. Unfortunately, Necrons being Necrons, there isn't anything else (honestly) in the Codex. You then have slightly over 250 Points to play with. That's x4 Wraiths. Probably not as many as you want. So what you're really going to take is 22 Warriors to make a scoring presence, and a screen against a Turn 1 Charge for your Destroyers.

Sautekh/Mephrit*/Nephrekh, Outrider
Cryptek; Staff of Light, Canoptek Cloak, [Lightning Field/Veil of Darkness/*Voltaic Staff], [Enduring Will/*Merciless Tyrant] - 85 Points

Necron Warriors (x11) - 132 Points
Necron Warriors (x11) - 132 Points

Destroyers (x6); Gauss Cannons (x6) - 300 Points
Destroyers (x6); Gauss Cannons (x6) - 300 Points
Destroyers (x6); Gauss Cannons (x6) - 300 Points

Total: 1249 Points

This list, for me in my meta, does really well. A lot of people get really confused that with so many Destroyers, I'm not taking a Destroyer Lord?
With so many shots, wounding everything on 3s and 2s (and Knights on 5+), I just don't think re-roll 1s to wound is worth it. If something needs to die on Turn 1, bust out Extermination Protocols and roll hard, in which case the DLord wouldn't do anything. It's unlikely in 1250 that your opponent is going to have two Death Stars... That said, you can fit in 3 Knights into 1250.

If you drop the two extra Warriors in the list that are only there so you don't leave 25 points off the table for no reason...You only get 5 Wraiths. To get the full six Wraiths you need 5 more points. The only optional part of the list left, is the Canoptek Cloak on the Cryptek, and you are not losing that. So, dropping a unit of Destroyers (x6) for a unit of Wraiths (x5), actually ends up giving you +25 Points. You can convert that into another two Warriors. If you do want to run Wraiths, you are now playing Nephrekh, and on Turn 1, you will be losing a quarter of your CPs to make a Turn 1 Charge.

Alternatively, for 265 Points...

Overlord; Staff of Light - 94 Points
Immortals (x5); Gauss Blasters - 85 Points
Immortals (x5); Tesla Carbines - 85 Points

This sucks. I've played it. And it sucks. One unit of Tesla, even My Will Be Done'd, doesn't. Do. Anything. AP- is hot garbage, and is worse than useless if your opponent has a Cover save...Which every horde army has from now on, if they're going second, because GW's plan was to make hordes less strong, amirite?
x10 Immortals also does not provide a screen, and if your opponent plays any army even remotely on-meta, at least one of your Destroyer units is dying on Turn 1. No Reanimation.

If you want to take this list to a doubles event - especially a 2500 event - you'll want to have a partner that can score Objectives, because you certainly wont be.

[LansXero]

So, lists are locked in:

Spoiler: 2999 pts. Chaos

Show

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - FW Heretic Astartes) [25 PL, 514pts]

Lord of War: Kytan Ravager [25 PL, 514pts]: Kytan gatling cannon

Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines / World Eaters) [48 PL, 887pts]

Flyer:

Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship [18 PL, 332pts]: Hellstrike missiles, Khorne, Twin multi-melta, Vengeance launcher

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [25 PL, 448pts]

Relics of the Thousand Sons (1 Relic / 1 CP)

HQ

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [9 PL, 166pts]: Death Hex, Prescience, Warlord, Warptime

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 141pts]: Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Helm of the Third Eye, Infernal Gaze, Inferno Bolt Pistol

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 141pts]: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol

Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines / Alpha Legion) [25 PL, 354pts]

Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic / 1 CP)

HQ

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 78pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power sword

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, No Chaos Mark, Power maul

+ Troops

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 120pts]: 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Tzeentch
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Tzeentch
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Tzeentch
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines / World Eaters) [33 PL, 543pts]

HQ

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 70pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

Troops

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Khorne Berzerkers [17 PL, 317pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 17x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 17x Chainaxe

Patrol Detachment (Chaos - Daemons / Undivided) [15 PL, 253pts]

HQ

Bloodmaster [3 PL, 56pts]

Troops

Bloodletters [12 PL, 197pts]: 25x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon

++ Total: [171 PL, 2999pts] ++

Thats too many detachments, isnt it? Will have to ask him to remake it, but the general gist of it should remain the same.

Spoiler: 3000 pts. Eldar

Show

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [42 PL, 867pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc (Fieldcraft)

+ HQ +

Autarch [4 PL, 99pts]: Banshee Mask, Forceshield, Reaper Launcher, Star Glaive

Farseer [6 PL, 110pts]: 1. Guide, 2. Doom, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 1. Conceal/Reveal, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

+ Heavy Support +

Dark Reapers [7 PL, 141pts]
. 3x Dark Reaper: 3x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Tempest Launcher

Dark Reapers [7 PL, 141pts]
. 3x Dark Reaper: 3x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Tempest Launcher

Dark Reapers [7 PL, 141pts]
. 3x Dark Reaper: 3x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Tempest Launcher

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [38 PL, 770pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ Flyer +

Crimson Hunter Exarch [9 PL, 175pts]: Two Bright Lances

Crimson Hunter Exarch [9 PL, 175pts]: Two Bright Lances

Hemlock Wraithfighter [10 PL, 210pts]: 3. Enhance/Drain, Spirit Stones

Hemlock Wraithfighter [10 PL, 210pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, Spirit Stones

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [41 PL, 846pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Black Heart

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 76pts]: Huskblade, Splinter pistol

Archon [4 PL, 89pts]: Blaster, Venom Blade, Writ of the Living Muse, Warlord, Labyrinthine Cunning

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 97pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 97pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 97pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Harlequins) [23 PL, 517pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Masque Form: The Midnight Sorrow: The Art of Death

Enigmas of the Black Library: 1 Relic.

+ HQ +

Shadowseer [7 PL, 125pts]: Fog of Dreams, Shuriken Pistol, Veil of Tears

Troupe Master [4 PL, 86pts]: Fusion Pistol, Great Harlequin, Harlequin's Caress, The Suit of Hidden Knives

+ Fast Attack +

Skyweavers [4 PL, 102pts]
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

Skyweavers [4 PL, 102pts]
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

Skyweavers [4 PL, 102pts]
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

++ Total: [144 PL, 3000pts] ++

I went heavy on the anti-vehicle because he usually runs his stuff in rhinos. So, besides the issue with the # of detachments, how screwed am I?

[Forum Explorer]

So, lists are locked in:

Spoiler: 2999 pts. Chaos

Show

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - FW Heretic Astartes) [25 PL, 514pts]

Lord of War: Kytan Ravager [25 PL, 514pts]: Kytan gatling cannon

Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines / World Eaters) [48 PL, 887pts]

Flyer:

Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship [18 PL, 332pts]: Hellstrike missiles, Khorne, Twin multi-melta, Vengeance launcher

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [25 PL, 448pts]

Relics of the Thousand Sons (1 Relic / 1 CP)

HQ

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [9 PL, 166pts]: Death Hex, Prescience, Warlord, Warptime

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 141pts]: Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Helm of the Third Eye, Infernal Gaze, Inferno Bolt Pistol

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 141pts]: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol

Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines / Alpha Legion) [25 PL, 354pts]

Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic / 1 CP)

HQ

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 78pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power sword

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, No Chaos Mark, Power maul

+ Troops

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 120pts]: 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Tzeentch
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Tzeentch
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Tzeentch
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines / World Eaters) [33 PL, 543pts]

HQ

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 70pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

Troops

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Khorne Berzerkers [17 PL, 317pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 17x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 17x Chainaxe

Patrol Detachment (Chaos - Daemons / Undivided) [15 PL, 253pts]

HQ

Bloodmaster [3 PL, 56pts]

Troops

Bloodletters [12 PL, 197pts]: 25x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon

++ Total: [171 PL, 2999pts] ++

Thats too many detachments, isnt it? Will have to ask him to remake it, but the general gist of it should remain the same.

Spoiler: 3000 pts. Eldar

Show

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [42 PL, 867pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc (Fieldcraft)

+ HQ +

Autarch [4 PL, 99pts]: Banshee Mask, Forceshield, Reaper Launcher, Star Glaive

Farseer [6 PL, 110pts]: 1. Guide, 2. Doom, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 1. Conceal/Reveal, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

+ Heavy Support +

Dark Reapers [7 PL, 141pts]
. 3x Dark Reaper: 3x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Tempest Launcher

Dark Reapers [7 PL, 141pts]
. 3x Dark Reaper: 3x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Tempest Launcher

Dark Reapers [7 PL, 141pts]
. 3x Dark Reaper: 3x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Tempest Launcher

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [38 PL, 770pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ Flyer +

Crimson Hunter Exarch [9 PL, 175pts]: Two Bright Lances

Crimson Hunter Exarch [9 PL, 175pts]: Two Bright Lances

Hemlock Wraithfighter [10 PL, 210pts]: 3. Enhance/Drain, Spirit Stones

Hemlock Wraithfighter [10 PL, 210pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, Spirit Stones

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [41 PL, 846pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Black Heart

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 76pts]: Huskblade, Splinter pistol

Archon [4 PL, 89pts]: Blaster, Venom Blade, Writ of the Living Muse, Warlord, Labyrinthine Cunning

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 97pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 97pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 97pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Harlequins) [23 PL, 517pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Masque Form: The Midnight Sorrow: The Art of Death

Enigmas of the Black Library: 1 Relic.

+ HQ +

Shadowseer [7 PL, 125pts]: Fog of Dreams, Shuriken Pistol, Veil of Tears

Troupe Master [4 PL, 86pts]: Fusion Pistol, Great Harlequin, Harlequin's Caress, The Suit of Hidden Knives

+ Fast Attack +

Skyweavers [4 PL, 102pts]
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

Skyweavers [4 PL, 102pts]
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

Skyweavers [4 PL, 102pts]
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

++ Total: [144 PL, 3000pts] ++

I went heavy on the anti-vehicle because he usually runs his stuff in rhinos. So, besides the issue with the # of detachments, how screwed am I?

Why is your first Craftworld detachment mixed?

Anyways, he still has a decent amount of tanks between the Heldrakes and super heavy, so they'll still see plenty of use. I think you'll be fine.

[LansXero]

Why is your first Craftworld detachment mixed?

Anyways, he still has a decent amount of tanks between the Heldrakes and super heavy, so they'll still see plenty of use. I think you'll be fine.

Because Battlescribe lagged and didnt register the check for Alaitoc.

Not that it helps that much, seeing as how almost his entire list doesnt care about -1s to hit at range, due to having no range.to begin with.

EDIT: So, Kythan is gone due to limit on detachments. Now Im truly screwed:

Spoiler: 3000 pts, Chaos

Show

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [48 PL, 887pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: World Eaters

+ Flyer +

Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship [18 PL, 332pts]: Hellstrike missiles, Khorne, Twin multi-melta, Vengeance launcher

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [46 PL, 856pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Relics of the Thousand Sons (1 Relic)

+ HQ +

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [9 PL, 166pts]: Death Hex, Prescience, Warptime

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 141pts]: Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Helm of the Third Eye, Infernal Gaze, Inferno Bolt Pistol

Sorcerer [6 PL, 104pts]: Force sword, Inferno Bolt Pistol

+ Lord of War +

Magnus the Red [23 PL, 445pts]: Warlord

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [33 PL, 543pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: World Eaters

+ HQ +

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 70pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Khorne Berzerkers [17 PL, 317pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 17x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 17x Chainaxe

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [39 PL, 714pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided

+ HQ +

Bloodmaster [3 PL, 56pts]

Skarbrand [18 PL, 360pts]

+ Troops +

Bloodletters [12 PL, 190pts]: 24x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

++ Total: [166 PL, 3000pts] ++

Since he got to retool his list, I may ask to do the same with mine, but honestly Im at a loss as to how to meet that much melee power head on, specially if Im locked with Craftworlds.

[Forum Explorer]

Because Battlescribe lagged and didnt register the check for Alaitoc.

Not that it helps that much, seeing as how almost his entire list doesnt care about -1s to hit at range, due to having no range.to begin with.

EDIT: So, Kythan is gone due to limit on detachments. Now Im truly screwed:

Spoiler: 3000 pts, Chaos

Show

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [48 PL, 887pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: World Eaters

+ Flyer +

Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship [18 PL, 332pts]: Hellstrike missiles, Khorne, Twin multi-melta, Vengeance launcher

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

Heldrake [10 PL, 185pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, Mark of Khorne

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [46 PL, 856pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Relics of the Thousand Sons (1 Relic)

+ HQ +

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [9 PL, 166pts]: Death Hex, Prescience, Warptime

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 141pts]: Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Helm of the Third Eye, Infernal Gaze, Inferno Bolt Pistol

Sorcerer [6 PL, 104pts]: Force sword, Inferno Bolt Pistol

+ Lord of War +

Magnus the Red [23 PL, 445pts]: Warlord

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [33 PL, 543pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: World Eaters

+ HQ +

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 70pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Khorne
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Khorne Berzerkers [17 PL, 317pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 17x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 17x Chainaxe

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [39 PL, 714pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided

+ HQ +

Bloodmaster [3 PL, 56pts]

Skarbrand [18 PL, 360pts]

+ Troops +

Bloodletters [12 PL, 190pts]: 24x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

++ Total: [166 PL, 3000pts] ++

Since he got to retool his list, I may ask to do the same with mine, but honestly Im at a loss as to how to meet that much melee power head on, specially if Im locked with Craftworlds.

Yeah, Alatioc isn't doing a lot for you. But honestly your list isn't that bad. Only the Haywire stuff has to shoot at a vehicle (which there are 4 of), and the rest of your anti-tank has plenty of targets between Magnus and Skarbrand. Then fire the Tempest Launchers at the Berserkers. Really, I think he's going to struggle with your Flyers since Heldrakes aren't that good, and he doesn't have any anti-tank besides Magnus and Skarbrand. Oh and the Gunship.

You've also got lots of Denies, so he's not going to be able to just smite you off the board.

[Drasius]

So, as a thought exercise, since I can't make a list I like with what I want, all the first turn charges:

Evil Suns Batallion - 5cp

120 - Trike
120 - Trike

213 - 30x Boyz, Power Stabba
30 - 10x Grots
30 - 10x Grots

77 - Nob w/ Waaaugh banner

222 - 9x Bikers, Power Klaw
222 - 9x Bikers, Power Klaw
130 - 6x Bikers, Power Klaw

311 - Gorkanaught
310 - Morkanaught, KFF

Snakebite Battallion - 5cp

62 - Weirdboy
62 - Weirdboy

30 - 10x Grots
30 - 10x Grots
30 - 10x Grots

1999

- The trikes allow bikes and vehicles within 6" to charge even if they advanced
- Use 2cp on Tellyporta to DS the Gorkanaught i, blow 2 more cp on Ramming Speed for 3d6+1 rr charge
- Put the Waaaaugh nob in the Gorka, maybe even give him Redder Armour for the lulz, have him pop out when convinient
- Warpath & Da Jump on the 30 Boyz (they only have to be friendly, not the same <KLAN>, yeah?)
- Morkanaught hands out a 5++ within 9" so your stuff is slightly less dead turn 1, has a little bit of shooting and can threaten the backfield a bit, control mid or just rush in as fast as possible as the situation demands
- Grots fill out battallions for cp, provide fuel for Grot Shields, block charges and generally die horribly whenever anything looks at them

It's not clever, but it feels like a lot of stuff in someones face T1, though having not played 8th yet, I don't have anything to back this up.

Edit: No particular thoughts on warlord traits, maybe the Snakebite autopass morale for grots on one of the weirdboys and they hide after their job is done? Make the weirdboys Blood Axes and grab the cp refund trait in exchange for the 6+++ that snakebiktes hand out?

[Forum Explorer]

So, as a thought exercise, since I can't make a list I like with what I want, all the first turn charges:

Evil Suns Batallion - 5cp

120 - Trike
120 - Trike

213 - 30x Boyz, Power Stabba
30 - 10x Grots
30 - 10x Grots

77 - Nob w/ Waaaugh banner

222 - 9x Bikers, Power Klaw
222 - 9x Bikers, Power Klaw
130 - 6x Bikers, Power Klaw

311 - Gorkanaught
310 - Morkanaught, KFF

Snakebite Battallion - 5cp

62 - Weirdboy
62 - Weirdboy

30 - 10x Grots
30 - 10x Grots
30 - 10x Grots

1999

- The trikes allow bikes and vehicles within 6" to charge even if they advanced
- Use 2cp on Tellyporta to DS the Gorkanaught i, blow 2 more cp on Ramming Speed for 3d6+1 rr charge
- Put the Waaaaugh nob in the Gorka, maybe even give him Redder Armour for the lulz, have him pop out when convinient
- Warpath & Da Jump on the 30 Boyz (they only have to be friendly, not the same <KLAN>, yeah?)
- Morkanaught hands out a 5++ within 9" so your stuff is slightly less dead turn 1, has a little bit of shooting and can threaten the backfield a bit, control mid or just rush in as fast as possible as the situation demands
- Grots fill out battallions for cp, provide fuel for Grot Shields, block charges and generally die horribly whenever anything looks at them

It's not clever, but it feels like a lot of stuff in someones face T1, though having not played 8th yet, I don't have anything to back this up.

Edit: No particular thoughts on warlord traits, maybe the Snakebite autopass morale for grots on one of the weirdboys and they hide after their job is done? Make the weirdboys Blood Axes and grab the cp refund trait in exchange for the 6+++ that snakebiktes hand out?

Only problem is that the Gorkanaught would have to come in Turn 2.

[Drasius]

Only problem is that the Gorkanaught would have to come in Turn 2.

Oh yeah. In that case, it can shuffle up the board 10+d6 inches a turn next to the Morkanaught and dakka stuff T1 while threatening stuff that wants my mid or backfield.

[Cheesegear]

I watched Orks hard-counter Aeldari today.
A 6 always hits, a 6+ generates another attack.
Traktor Kannons auto-hit and cause models with <Fly> to auto-explode if they have it...Which is everything in an Aeldari army.
I've never seen an Aeldari player be so mad.

Aeldari suck. Orks have exceptionally on-meta units.
Life is good.

Posted from phone.

[LansXero]

I watched Orks hard-counter Aeldari today.
A 6 always hits, a 6+ generates another attack.
Traktor Kannons auto-hit and cause models with <Fly> to auto-explode if they have it...Which is everything in an Aeldari army.
I've never seen an Aeldari player be so mad.

Aeldari suck. Orks have exceptionally on-meta units.
Life is good.

Posted from phone.

So shining spears are vehicles now? and dark reapers can fly?

Sure it counters ravagers / raiders hard, but to go as far as 'its everything' is a bit of an overstatement imho.

Yeah, Alatioc isn't doing a lot for you. But honestly your list isn't that bad. Only the Haywire stuff has to shoot at a vehicle (which there are 4 of), and the rest of your anti-tank has plenty of targets between Magnus and Skarbrand. Then fire the Tempest Launchers at the Berserkers. Really, I think he's going to struggle with your Flyers since Heldrakes aren't that good, and he doesn't have any anti-tank besides Magnus and Skarbrand. Oh and the Gunship.

You've also got lots of Denies, so he's not going to be able to just smite you off the board.

As it happens, he did smite all the Skyweavers and the troupe master off the board. And a Hemlock. But it was a good game nonetheless.

Won by tabling at close of turn 5. Was also ahead in VPs, despite giving away first blood. We got the diagonal deployment, and the mission that puts a -1 to hit on shots from further away than 18".

[Forum Explorer]

I watched Orks hard-counter Aeldari today.
A 6 always hits, a 6+ generates another attack.
Traktor Kannons auto-hit and cause models with <Fly> to auto-explode if they have it...Which is everything in an Aeldari army.
I've never seen an Aeldari player be so mad.

Aeldari suck. Orks have exceptionally on-meta units.
Life is good.

Posted from phone.

I am pretty friggin happy about it really. Aeldari could use a hard counter, and I love that it's Orks.

So shining spears are vehicles now? and dark reapers can fly?

Sure it counters ravagers / raiders hard, but to go as far as 'its everything' is a bit of an overstatement imho.



As it happens, he did smite all the Skyweavers and the troupe master off the board. And a Hemlock. But it was a good game nonetheless.

Won by tabling at close of turn 5. Was also ahead in VPs, despite giving away first blood. We got the diagonal deployment, and the mission that puts a -1 to hit on shots from further away than 18".

All vehicles then.


Nicely done.

[Cheesegear]

So shining spears are vehicles now?

With the nerf to Melee units that Fly, Shining Spears are kind of going out of the meta. Craftworlds players will definitely still use them. But they're certainly nowhere near as powerful as they used to be, and thus, they are no longer really a threat to some of the major players anymore.

Sure it counters ravagers / raiders hard

Venoms, Ravagers, Razorwings, Fire Prisms, Wave Serpents, Crimson Hunters, Hemlocks, Starweavers and Skyweavers (I think?). All of these things are in the meta.

Basically, if you're an Aeldari player who builds their army around stacking negs to hit - which you definitely do do - then Orks don't care and you're effectively wasting your points and/or CPs.
The instant you start handing out -3 to hit to BS4 models (e.g; Guard), then nothing works anymore. Orks don't care about that because they can literally never be worse than -1 to hit - and they're even better on Overwatch.

It's like running a -Ld army, against an opponent that doesn't take Morale tests. What's the point?

I'm glad your Hemlock has -2 (or -3) to hit... It's dead. Also everything around it takes Mortal Wounds.

[Drasius]

We got the diagonal deployment, and the mission that puts a -1 to hit on shots from further away than 18".

Another -1 to hit from mission? That sounds like cancer given that so many armies are already very strong with even a single -1 to hit, let alone those that can get -2 or -3 without having another -1 on top from the mission.

[deuterio12]

I watched Orks hard-counter pansy today.
A 6 always hits, a 6+ generates moar dakka.
Traktor Kannons auto-hit and cause models with <Fly> to auto-KABOOM if they have it...Which is everything in a pansy army.
I've never seen a pansy player be so mad.

Pansy suck. Orks have exceptionally on-meta units.
WWAAAGHHHH!!! is good.

Kleaned up a bit.

[LansXero]

Another -1 to hit from mission? That sounds like cancer given that so many armies are already very strong with even a single -1 to hit, let alone those that can get -2 or -3 without having another -1 on top from the mission.

We rolled at random from the rulebook, what can you do.

Do consider however that I was running a full-on shooty list (scariest melee thing were 6 skyweavers, out of 3000 points, vs Skarbrand, berserkers, bloodletters, etc. xD). So getting the deployment with the second-shortest distance between deployment zones AND my opponent getting a free -1 to be shot on top of that wasnt exactly on my favor.

Rangers had -3 to be hit, but what good is that when everything they get shot with is a flamer?

Basically, if you're an Aeldari player who builds their army around stacking negs to hit - which you definitely do do - then Orks don't care and you're effectively wasting your points and/or CPs.
The instant you start handing out -3 to hit to BS4 models (e.g; Guard), then nothing works anymore. Orks don't care about that because they can literally never be worse than -1 to hit - and they're even better on Overwatch.

It's like running a -Ld army, against an opponent that doesn't take Morale tests. What's the point?

I'm glad your Hemlock has -2 (or -3) to hit... It's dead. Also everything around it takes Mortal Wounds.

I myself dont actually play any vehicles aside from hemlocks. While sure, Traktor Kannonz are stupid cheap, they are still one shot on a d6 of damage. Averages being equal, assuming I go second Im likely dead, but since I'll have the +1 vs Orkz more often than not, if I dont go second those things are getting tempest-launchered so hard they wont even leave a crater. I dont think bikes are vehicles, so clowns still get to clown around them just fine, what with being able to get inv. 3 and getting a -1 to wounds from their psyker. Lightning Reflexes still works on the fight phase, as does Drain / holosuits, so its not a 'hard counter' any more than rolling a 6 is a common ocurrence.

Like I just said, we just got done with the tabling of 3k points worth of Chaos, inc. most of the MW spam shenanigans that makes Chaos works, couple with a ton of annoying melee, on the most favorable conditions it could get. Im not going to understimate your meta, but I think what you saw was just that particular ork list hard countering that particular Eldar list.

Now, let me know how much fun it is to shoot traktor kannonz into IG blobs to get out-fought by catachans while a Castellan laughs from the back while showing the orkonautz what a real super heavy looks like. Because unless Orkz can now make a valid TAC list, its just the usual heavy tailoring at work.

[Forum Explorer]

We rolled at random from the rulebook, what can you do.

Do consider however that I was running a full-on shooty list (scariest melee thing were 6 skyweavers, out of 3000 points, vs Skarbrand, berserkers, bloodletters, etc. xD). So getting the deployment with the second-shortest distance between deployment zones AND my opponent getting a free -1 to be shot on top of that wasnt exactly on my favor.

Rangers had -3 to be hit, but what good is that when everything they get shot with is a flamer?



I myself dont actually play any vehicles aside from hemlocks. While sure, Traktor Kannonz are stupid cheap, they are still one shot on a d6 of damage. Averages being equal, assuming I go second Im likely dead, but since I'll have the +1 vs Orkz more often than not, if I dont go second those things are getting tempest-launchered so hard they wont even leave a crater. I dont think bikes are vehicles, so clowns still get to clown around them just fine, what with being able to get inv. 3 and getting a -1 to wounds from their psyker. Lightning Reflexes still works on the fight phase, as does Drain / holosuits, so its not a 'hard counter' any more than rolling a 6 is a common ocurrence.

Like I just said, we just got done with the tabling of 3k points worth of Chaos, inc. most of the MW spam shenanigans that makes Chaos works, couple with a ton of annoying melee, on the most favorable conditions it could get. Im not going to understimate your meta, but I think what you saw was just that particular ork list hard countering that particular Eldar list.

Now, let me know how much fun it is to shoot traktor kannonz into IG blobs to get out-fought by catachans while a Castellan laughs from the back while showing the orkonautz what a real super heavy looks like. Because unless Orkz can now make a valid TAC list, its just the usual heavy tailoring at work.

Use Chapter Approved instead. No really, I find the Chapter Approved missions are so much better.


It depends on terrain, but it's pretty easy to hide them. Since they auto hit, they don't care about moving and shooting. Also Tempest Launchers would have a hard time killing them. You'd need at least 2 Exarchs per Traktor Cannon to really make that a confident kill. Also against things that fly, Traktor cannon damage is 2d6 take the highest.

Which also applies to jetbikes. It doesn't matter that much, but it does make a difference to avoid rolling those 1s and guaranteeing a kill when a wound goes through.


Hmm, it's 810 points for 18 Traktor Cannons (and yes, you can have that many.) and each one counts as a separate unit, so it's not even that easy to kill them all. You want one Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field to give you some turn 1 protection, give it a Shock Attack Gun so it doesn't need to move away from the Traktor Cannons. A couple of weird boyz, a battalion of Grots. That's 1099 points, so you've got a good 900 points for a melee horde.

I don't know if it's enough to beat the Guard Brigade + Castellon + BA combo, but it'd give it a run for it's money. 9 wound of D6 damage each probaly won't kill a Castellon in one turn, but it's pretty scary. I'd personally fill the rest of the army up with 90 Boyz with a Warboss and another Big Mek with a Shock Attack Gun. Then spend the last 150 points on some Deff Koptas.

Whoops my math was wrong on the 9 wounds part. They'd get to reroll to wound for being Death Skull (no reason to take anything else for the Spearhead of Traktor Cannons), or reroll the damage if they wounded the first time. So I'm pretty sure they could kill a Castellon in one turn.

EDIT: Fun thing, that army is only 15 drops. That's not all that many, though I'd have to go look at tournament lists to see how much they typically have.

[LansXero]

It depends on terrain, but it's pretty easy to hide them. Since they auto hit, they don't care about moving and shooting. Also Tempest Launchers would have a hard time killing them. You'd need at least 2 Exarchs per Traktor Cannon to really make that a confident kill. Also against things that fly, Traktor cannon damage is 2d6 take the highest.

Which also applies to jetbikes. It doesn't matter that much, but it does make a difference to avoid rolling those 1s and guaranteeing a kill when a wound goes through.


Hmm, it's 810 points for 18 Traktor Cannons (and yes, you can have that many.) and each one counts as a separate unit, so it's not even that easy to kill them all. You want one Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field to give you some turn 1 protection, give it a Shock Attack Gun so it doesn't need to move away from the Traktor Cannons. A couple of weird boyz, a battalion of Grots. That's 1099 points, so you've got a good 900 points for a melee horde.

I don't know if it's enough to beat the Guard Brigade + Castellon + BA combo, but it'd give it a run for it's money. 9 wound of D6 damage each probaly won't kill a Castellon in one turn, but it's pretty scary. I'd personally fill the rest of the army up with 90 Boyz with a Warboss and another Big Mek with a Shock Attack Gun. Then spend the last 150 points on some Deff Koptas.

Whoops my math was wrong on the 9 wounds part. They'd get to reroll to wound for being Death Skull (no reason to take anything else for the Spearhead of Traktor Cannons), or reroll the damage if they wounded the first time. So I'm pretty sure they could kill a Castellon in one turn.

EDIT: Fun thing, that army is only 15 drops. That's not all that many, though I'd have to go look at tournament lists to see how much they typically have.

Harder to hide from flyers, but I'd agree on the 'depends on terrain part'. But I think you're giving them too much credit, or too little to the fact that the list throws up CPs and can afford to have a 3++ on the castellan if it wants to, which then shoots as if it was still new the next turn. Mek Gunz are not infantry so cant start on terrain, and I wouldnt put much stock in their ability to climb ruins, so after a turn or 2 they are getting bogged down / dead because if you are focusing down the castellan hard enough to blow it up with 40% of your list, you are not dealing with everything else.

But back to Eldar soup, I think that if I can get rid of half of them through charging / shooting, and can somehow roll enough 6s to save a plane or two, it would be easy breezy from then on. Their main strength is how cheap they are though, so I agree on them being good. But I still think that going from 'they are good now' to 'its a hard counter, eldar are garbage now' is a bit of a stretch

[Gauntlet]

They'd get to reroll to wound for being Death Skull (no reason to take anything else for the Spearhead of Traktor Cannons), or reroll the damage if they wounded the first time.

Deffskulls get a reroll to hit, wound and damage. Not just to one of them.

[Cheesegear]

Hmm, it's 810 points for 18 Traktor Cannons (and yes, you can have that many.) and each one counts as a separate unit, so it's not even that easy to kill them all.

The game I watched, the guy had three to make a Deathskull Spearhead with a Big Mek and Force Field - Dark Reapers weren't happy about that.
He doesn't want to buy any more right now because they seem a bit too good, and it might be worth waiting for Errata to see if they get nerfed.

Then there's Battlewagons and a Morkanought with KFF.

I don't know if it's enough to beat the Guard Brigade + Castellon + BA combo

As I've said previously, people are very likely to drop the BA Battalion and Castellan after Chapter Approved comes out.
It's likely that we're going to see Knights Gallant and/or Armigers.

[lord_khaine]

Like I just said, we just got done with the tabling of 3k points worth of Chaos, inc. most of the MW spam shenanigans that makes Chaos works, couple with a ton of annoying melee, on the most favorable conditions it could get. Im not going to understimate your meta, but I think what you saw was just that particular ork list hard countering that particular Eldar list.

Now, let me know how much fun it is to shoot traktor kannonz into IG blobs to get out-fought by catachans while a Castellan laughs from the back while showing the orkonautz what a real super heavy looks like. Because unless Orkz can now make a valid TAC list, its just the usual heavy tailoring at work.

I think this is a great example of GW at its Best (worst)
Because honestly, hits automatically, automatically destroy a type of target?
Thats like (insert edition) all over, where (insert unit) turned out to be completely overpowered.
And GW then made (insert type), who countered it hard. But then also wrecked all other (insert type), to the point where they became unviable.

If people want to play scissor paper rock, then they could spare themselves the investment in several thousand euro plastic toys.

[Brookshw]

Hmm, it's 810 points $828 USD for 18 Traktor Cannons

Probably the real limiter on how many people will bring

[Blackhawk748]

Probably the real limiter on how many people will bring

Which is why you make your own. I have never purchased a Big Gun from GW. My Current KMKs are actually pencil sharpeners shaped like 18th century cannons with green stuff wiring around the barrel. If i wanted Lobbas id go to Warlord and buy Mortars. If i wanted Traktor Cannons id go by Flakk guns from Warlord.

[Mystic Muse]

If I wanted to build a Thousand Sons Army, and don't want to run a massive number of Tzaangors, am I needlessly neffing myself?

[Voidhawk]

If I wanted to build a Thousand Sons Army, and don't want to run a massive number of Tzaangors, am I needlessly neffing myself?

Short answer: The best things in the Thousand Sons book are Magnus and Ahriman. The second best things are Disc Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Tzaangors are third. Rubric Marines are... not great.

Not taking Tzaangors means you have very little in the way of good/cheap troops. So you either 1) take only a small Sons detachment in an otherwise misc-Chaos-soup list, 2) have no CP and ObSec, or 3) just resign yourself to being handicapped in points/effectiveness by taking Rubrics.

Now, if you're in a casual meta that won't matter so much. You can do fine by just Smiting everything off the board. But in a competitive one you'll feel the pain of having expensive, slow, small-model count units for Ob Sec.

[Mystic Muse]

Short answer: The best things in the Thousand Sons book are Magnus and Ahriman. The second best things are Disc Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Tzaangors are third. Rubric Marines are... not great.

Not taking Tzaangors means you have very little in the way of good/cheap troops. So you either 1) take only a small Sons detachment in an otherwise misc-Chaos-soup list, 2) have no CP and ObSec, or 3) just resign yourself to being handicapped in points/effectiveness by taking Rubrics.

Now, if you're in a casual meta that won't matter so much. You can do fine by just Smiting everything off the board. But in a competitive one you'll feel the pain of having expensive, slow, small-model count units for Ob Sec.

Completely fair. I guess it's just a matter of me not wanting to have another horde army when I already have tyranids.