Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering

[LansXero]

The base

My troops were on top of a 6" tall bluff. Explosion distance was 7". Am I correct to assume only the first 1" should've been affected? Or is it an infinitely tall cylinder?

[JNAProductions]

My troops were on top of a 6" tall bluff. Explosion distance was 7". Am I correct to assume only the first 1" should've been affected? Or is it an infinitely tall cylinder?

Any UNIT within 7" gets affected.

Also, let's say I wanted to add a bunch of legs to Akhelian (from the Idoneth Deepkin line) to make Fiends of Slaanesh.

Anyone know any good kits to get legs from?

And anyone know what base size the new fiends are on?

[Cheesegear]

My troops were on top of a 6" tall bluff. Explosion distance was 7".

Distances are measured from the base of the model. This can get tricky with some Vehicles-with-bases (e.g; The Aeldari ones that have specific rules about bases and hulls). But, a Knight is not one of those tricky models. It has a base, and no special rules. Therefore, measure everything from the base...Hell, Knights even have a special Stratagem that allows them to attack the second floor of Ruins, despite their huge Chainsword being right there.

So, if your models' bases were within 7" of the Knight's base, then they were hit.

Or is it an infinitely tall cylinder?

It's exactly a 7" sphere measured from the model's base. Characters' Auras work exactly the same way.

How do you measure distance from a model shooting on the ground, to a model in a second-storey? Measure that way.

[Cheesegear]

I'm curious, what would your Faith Point system be?

I wouldn't have Faith Points at all.

Way 1;
I would have them be exactly like Powers of the C'Tan.

Each unit has access to one Act of Faith, chosen during list creation. Certain Characters and units can have two. Celestine can choose 3.
You can't choose the same AoF again until all six have been chosen. This repeats. Or, you can random roll at the start of the game.
All AoFs happen on a D6 roll, depending on the AoF.

Way 2;
Sisters are just Grey Knights. Acts of Faith are just different Psychic Powers, that happen during the Psychic phase.
Each unit gets one, two, or three AoFs - as above. Can't use the same AoF twice in the same turn - as per Psychic Powers. However, every unit as access to a '#0' Act of Faith that can be used as many times as you want, each time the Devotion roll gets +1 to manifest.
<Dark Apostles>, <Heralds of <Allegiance>> may attempt to Deny the Devotion roll, in the same way as Denying the Witch.

Way 3;
Your army may perform a number of Acts of Faith per Round based on the points limit;
<1000; 2
1001-2000; 3
2001-3000; 4
etc.

Celestine may perform an additional AoF on a 2+.
Imagifiers are still Elites units; On a 2+, one Faithful unit within 3" may perform an additional AoF.
The same unit can't use two AoFs in the same Turn.
Under Way 3, 'Shoot Twice' is not a thing.

Acts of Faith;
0. Auto-pass Morale // Ignore Wounds (5+)
1. The unit may Advance, Shoot and/or Charge this turn. Rapid Fire weapons become Assault weapons. Assault weapons take no negs to hit. Re-roll Advance and Charge.
2. A <Character> may attempt to Deny the Witch in the same way as a Psyker. <Ministorum Priests> may add 1 to the roll if they're within 12" of the Psyker.
3. Shoot Twice // Ignore LoS and Ignore Cover ... In addition, a 6+ to wound adds -1 AP.
4. The unit may fight again immediately.
5. D3 Mortal Wounds to closest visible unit, D6 Mortal Wounds on a good roll.
6. Reanimation Protocols.

[Forum Explorer]

I wouldn't have Faith Points at all.

Way 1;
I would have them be exactly like Powers of the C'Tan.

Each unit has access to one Act of Faith, chosen during list creation. Certain Characters and units can have two. Celestine can choose 3.
You can't choose the same AoF again until all six have been chosen. This repeats. Or, you can random roll at the start of the game.
All AoFs happen on a D6 roll, depending on the AoF.

Way 2;
Sisters are just Grey Knights. Acts of Faith are just different Psychic Powers, that happen during the Psychic phase.
Each unit gets one, two, or three AoFs - as above. Can't use the same AoF twice in the same turn - as per Psychic Powers. However, every unit as access to a '#0' Act of Faith that can be used as many times as you want, each time the Devotion roll gets +1 to manifest.
<Dark Apostles>, <Heralds of <Allegiance>> may attempt to Deny the Devotion roll, in the same way as Denying the Witch.

Way 3;
Your army may perform a number of Acts of Faith per Round based on the points limit;
<1000; 2
1001-2000; 3
2001-3000; 4
etc.

Celestine may perform an additional AoF.
Imagifiers are still Elites units; On a 2+, one Faithful unit within 3" may perform an additional AoF.
The same unit can't use two AoFs in the same Turn.
Under Way 3, 'Shoot Twice' is not a thing.

I think I like Way 1 the best. Or maybe a combination of Way 1 and Way 3. Like, each unit has 1 or 2 Acts of Faith that the unit can perform. You roll 2 dice to access the power, and you get 3 per round (at 2000 points). Celestine may use her Acts of Faith at no cost, effectively giving you an extra one. Imagfiers are upgrades, they let you reroll the dice on a fail.

[Forum Explorer]

This got kinda big, so I'm doing a seperate post rather than an edit.

Acts of Faith:
You get 1 Faith Point per 500 points spend on Adeptus Ministorum Units. Each round your Faith Points refresh. To perform an Act of Faith you pick which Act you'd like a unit to perform (if it has multiple available) then roll 2D6. If you match or exceed the number for the Act of Faith it sucessfully goes off. Otherwise the Faith Point is wasted. Each unit may only perform 1 Act of Faith per battle round.

Celestine may perform an Act of Faith without spending a Faith Point.

Spoiler: Lots of units

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Well let’s got full crazy on this and go through all the units:

Celestine:
Holy Tears (6): Respawn a model from any unit within 3 inches at full wounds. Alternatively, heal D3 units from a friendly model.
Miraculous Intervention (6): Remove Celestine and her unit from the board, place her anywhere more then 9 inches away from an enemy unit.
The Emperor’s Wrath (5): Deal D3 Mortal wounds to the closest visible enemy unit within 18 inches

Canoness:
For the Emperor (6): All friendly units within 6 inches autopass morale
The Emperor’s Wrath (5): Deal D3 Mortal wounds to the closest visible enemy unit within 18 inches

Hospitaller
The Emperor Protects (7): Friendly units within 3 ignore damage on a 5+.

Dialogous
Purge the Heathen (7): Friendly units within 6 get +1 S.

Battle Sisters
Let the Emperor Guide your Aim (6) +1 to hit.

Seraphim
Miraculous Intervention (6): Remove this unit from the board, place them anywhere more then 9 inches away from an enemy unit.
The Emperor’s Swiftness (6): Immediately move 6 inches. Can be done, even after deploying from reserve.

Celestian Squad
Let the Emperor Guide your Aim (6) +1 to hit.

Mistress of Repentance
Purge the Heathen (7): Friendly units within 6 get +1 S.

Repentia Squad
Smite the foes of the Emperor (7): Double your damage for the next phase.

Retributor Squad:
Cleanse the Emperor’s Domain with Bolt and Fury (7): Shoot again.

Dominon Squad:
Purify the enemy with light and flame (6): Reroll to wound

Immolator:
Purify the enemy with light and flame (6): Reroll to wound

Exorcist:
Smite the foes of the Emperor (7): Double your damage for the next phase.
Let the Emperor Guide your aim(6): +1 to hit.

And lets get the priests in on this:
Urien:
The Emperor’s Wrath (5): Deal D3 Mortal wounds to the closest visible enemy unit within 18 inches
The Emperor Protects (7): Friendly units within 3 ignore damage on a 5+.

Priest:
The Emperor’s Wrath (5): Deal D3 Mortal wounds to the closest visible enemy unit within 18 inches

Crusaders:
Purge the mutant, the heretic, and the witch (6): Fight again

Death Cult Assassins:
Purge the mutant, the heretic, and the witch (6): Fight again

Acro-Flagglants:
The Emperor’s Swiftness (6): Immediately move 6 inches. Can be done, even after deploying from reserve.

Penitent Engines:
Smite the foes of the Emperor (7): Double your damage for the next phase.

[Brookshw]

Also, let's say I wanted to add a bunch of legs to Akhelian (from the Idoneth Deepkin line) to make Fiends of Slaanesh.

Anyone know any good kits to get legs from?

Probably not what you're thinking, but the scything talons from Genestealers might be cool legs, kinda skittering crab things.

[Wraith]

Also, let's say I wanted to add a bunch of legs to Akhelian (from the Idoneth Deepkin line) to make Fiends of Slaanesh.

Anyone know any good kits to get legs from?

Grot Spider-Riders?

And anyone know what base size the new fiends are on?

The current fiends are on 40mm bases, and the new ones have not upgraded to the elongated 'cavalry' bases so I would confidently assume they have stayed the same.

[Cheesegear]

And anyone know what base size the new fiends are on?

40mm. And 60mm, or 'Large Cavalry', the angle for the base is bad.

Spoiler

Show

[Cheesegear]

Having a disturbing conversation about the game.

Are you equal to or less than 7 Points?
Do you have a 5+ Invulnerable, or Ignore Wounds (5+), or better?
Do you deal Mortal Wounds somehow?
Are you S5 or S8+?
Are you T5 or T8?
Are you Ap-2?

If you answered 'No.' to all of these questions, you have a bad unit.

[Drasius]

Having a disturbing conversation about the game.

Are you equal to or less than 7 Points?
Do you have a 5+ Invulnerable, or Ignore Wounds (5+), or better?
Do you deal Mortal Wounds somehow?
Are you S5 or S8+?
Are you T5 or T8?
Are you Ap-2?

If you answered 'No.' to all of these questions, you have a bad unit.

That covers an unfortunately large amount of units, but the problem is, you're not wrong.

The only caveat I'd put in there is that some HQ's can be good despite not having any of the above, but that's about it.

[Cheesegear]

The only caveat I'd put in there is that some HQ's can be good despite not having any of the above, but that's about it.

Force multipliers are under a different metric...That is;
How do they support the existing unit?
a) Do you need them just to get your unit to where it needs to be (e.g; Seraphim + Celestine = Sororitas Troops with 4++), or
b) Make the existing unit that's already good, even better (e.g; Lemartes gives <Death Company> re-roll to Charge and to hit).

Clearly, the latter is better. Because if your opponent can snipe out your force multiplier (****ing Oathbreakers), then the unit is still pretty win, just not win more.

[Ionbound]

Might as well throw my hat in on Acts of Faith; I'd make them act like AoS Stratagems. You get 1 Faith Point per, say, 500 points of Ministorum Units (to borrow Forum Explorer's idea) at the start of each battle, and generate 1/round. The Ebon Chalice tactic generates an additional faith point per round. You may then spend Faith Points on Acts of Faith during the appropriate phase (fight phase for fight twice, shoot phase for shoot twice, move phase for move twice) once per round. If Celestine is in your army, one Ministorum unit within 12" may be affected by the same Act of Faith twice in the same round.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Might as well throw my hat in on Acts of Faith; I'd make them act like AoS Stratagems. You get 1 Faith Point per, say, 500 points of Ministorum Units (to borrow Forum Explorer's idea) at the start of each battle, and generate 1/round. The Ebon Chalice tactic generates an additional faith point per round. You may then spend Faith Points on Acts of Faith during the appropriate phase (fight phase for fight twice, shoot phase for shoot twice, move phase for move twice) once per round. If Celestine is in your army, one Ministorum unit within 12" may be affected by the same Act of Faith twice in the same round.

This is still a ridiculous boost to Ebon Chalice, especially if you have the action AoF be as powerful as you describe.

[Gauntlet]

Having a disturbing conversation about the game.

Are you equal to or less than 7 Points?
Do you have a 5+ Invulnerable, or Ignore Wounds (5+), or better?
Do you deal Mortal Wounds somehow?
Are you S5 or S8+?
Are you T5 or T8?
Are you Ap-2?

If you answered 'No.' to all of these questions, you have a bad unit.

Eldar Guardians are the closest I can think of to an exception, although Shuriken have an effective AP of somewhere between 0 and 3 depending on what you're shooting at. I suppose there's the stratagem to give them a 4++ against shooting, but that only works on one unit.

Stormboyz are another. I guess the Nob is strength 5, but the rest of the unit isn't.

Wyches only have a 4++ in combat, not sure if that counts for your maths here.

[Tome]

Perhaps 'Can it pull off a first turn charge' would be another criteria.

[Cheesegear]

Eldar Guardians are the closest I can think of to an exception

No they aren't.
All Eldar Troops are bad (especially after Rangers got nerfed). That's why Craftworlds only runs Spearheads and Air Wings. The rest is Drukhari and Harlequins.

If you wanted to say that Guardians are conditionally good. Sure. But that's not going to happen every game, and it's not going to happen against every opponent. Inconsistency is not something you want to look for in a unit.

We know that Guard Infantry did not go up...In fact...It's strongly argued that that Guard Codex will be even better come Saturday.

Stormboyz are another. I guess the Nob is strength 5, but the rest of the unit isn't.

I'll go over some winning lists since the Codex has come out...

Spoiler: List 1

Show

Snakebitez, Battalion
Wyrdboy
Wyrdboy
Slugga Boyz (x30)
Slugga Boyz (x30)
Slugga Boyz (x30)

Snakebitez
Warboss on Bike; Headwoppa
Wyrdboy
Painboy; Power Klaw
Slugga Boyz (x30)
Gretchin (x27)
Gretchin (x10)
Warbuggy

Snakebitez
Big Mek; Kustom Force Field
x6 Kustom Mega Kannons + 25
x6 Kustom Mega Kannons + 25
x4 Kustom Mega Kannons + 25

That many Kannons would do my head in.
Remembering of course that <Snakebitez> Grots don't take Morale.

Spoiler: List 2

Show

This one is hard to read. But I've done my best

Evil Suns, Battalion
Warboss; Shoota and Power Klaw
Weirdboy; Staff

Slugga Boyz (x30); x8 Shootas? Big Choppa. x3 Tank Busta Bombs
Slugga Boyz (x30) Big Choppa. x3 Tank Busta Bombs
Slugga Boyz (x30) Big Choppa. x3 Tank Busta Bombs

Painboy; Power Claw
Kommandos; x2 Burnas, x2 Tank Busta Bombs, Big Choppa
Kommandos; x2 Burnas, x2 Tank Busta Bombs, Big Choppa
Kommandos; x2 Burnas, x2 Tank Busta Bombs, Big Choppa

Battalion
Weirdboy; Staff
Big Mek on Warbike; Kustom Force Field

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)

Lootas (x10)
Lootas (x12)

Battalion
Boss Snikrot
Weirdboy

Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x10)
Gretchin (x12)

...I think that's the second list.

Perhaps 'Can it pull off a first turn charge' would be another criteria.

Would it? Every unit I can think of that does that...Also fits into one or more of the other categories.

[LudDavenport]

Having a disturbing conversation about the game.

Are you equal to or less than 7 Points?
Do you have a 5+ Invulnerable, or Ignore Wounds (5+), or better?
Do you deal Mortal Wounds somehow?
Are you S5 or S8+?
Are you T5 or T8?
Are you Ap-2?

If you answered 'No.' to all of these questions, you have a bad unit.

Are you cheap?
Are you durable?
Are you particularly dangerous?

I guess the issue here is that the bar for durable is higher then it used to be.

[Cheesegear]

Are you cheap?

Define 'cheap'. A Tactical Marine is cheaper than a Primaris Marine. Does that make a Tactical Marine good? Hell no. But let's go through something far more granular and more relevant.

A Craftworld Guardian is 8 Points.
A Kabalite Warrior is 7 Points.

How come the the bar is set at 7 Points? Why not 8 Points?

Skitarii Vanguard - 8 Points. Bad.
Skitarii Ranger - 7 Points. Good.

What difference does a single point make?
(...Actually, I can make that question non-rhetorical, by hinting that the Skitarii Vanguard are actually a bad example because they're one of the only [?] models with baseline, 3-shot weapons.)

What is cheap?

Are you durable?

With AP affecting everyone equally, AP-1 will reduce everyone's Armour Save by ~17%,
What even is durable in this meta, when Mortal Wounds are things that exist?

Are you particularly dangerous?

Again, it's easy to turn it into a simple question, and it's almost like "Well, yeah, when you put it like that, it seems obvious..."

However, in the current meta, with the game the way it is:
What defines what is dangerous?
If a player going second gets to count all their non-<Titanic> units as being in Cover (and said player has upwards of 60 Objective Secured models that don't even take Morale), what do you do against that? What even is the counter to 'My whole army is in Cover, yours isn't.'?

[LansXero]

Define 'cheap'. A Tactical Marine is cheaper than a Primaris Marine. Does that make a Tactical Marine good? Hell no. But let's go through something far more granular and more relevant.

A Craftworld Guardian is 8 Points.
A Kabalite Warrior is 7 Points.

How come the the bar is set at 7 Points? Why not 8 Points?

Skitarii Vanguard - 8 Points. Bad.
Skitarii Ranger - 7 Points. Good.

What difference does a single point make? ...I actually know the answer. But I'll see if anyone else knows...I've actually mentioned it a few times.
(...Actually, here's a hint, Skitarii Vanguard might be a bad example because their guns actually have 3 shots, not 2)

What is cheap?



With AP affecting everyone equally, AP-1 will reduce everyone's Armour Save by ~17%,
What even is durable in this meta, when Mortal Wounds are things that exist?



Again, it's easy to turn it into a simple question, and it's almost like "Well, yeah, when you put it like that, it seems obvious..."

However, in the current meta, with the game the way it is:
What defines what is dangerous?
If a player going second gets to count all their non-<Titanic> units as being in Cover (and said player has upwards of 60 Objective Secured models that don't even take Morale), what do you do against that? What even is the counter to 'My whole army is in Cover, yours isn't.'?

- Kabalites get Blasters (and Dark Lances, whatever you might say) and Guardians get to fail to wound then die.
- AP doesnt affect everyone equally, because you can get things to save on 'no' (like Hemlocks shooting at Leman Russes) and well every jump is a different bracket. And also because Inv.
- Something dangerous, and I know you hate the term, is something that can make its points back. Its a nebulous concept, but like Card Advantage in TCGs what we have learned through 8th seems to be that things that accomplish things during an activation proportional o more to the % of available activations you have are better than things that dont.

For example, foot slogging melee is trash because it does absolutely nothing for a turn. If it then dies to secondary fire (heavy bolters on leman russes, heavy stubbers on knights, bolter fire from marine HQs etc.) it didnt even soak up an activation itself so it was useless (because main weapon fire went to something actually important). Thats why we consider Tau crap, because it lacks punch for all the points it costs to use on 1 unit. Its not always so clear and cut, but the more your unit can accomplish before dying, or the longer it can stick around to accomplish things, the better.

Take my last game for example: 1.5k pure craftworld vs 1.5k pure knights. I had a Dark Reaper castle in cover with conceal, protect, fortune and guide, an autarch for re-rolls and was blowing Phantasm every turn to re-roll wounds. The rest of the army were 2x Crimson Hunters, 1 Hemlock and some shadow spectres that did nothing. No matter what my opponent would target, it had the potential to waste a knight's entire activation acomplishing nothing, and had the capacity to seriously damage or outright destroy a knight every turn. Also had 180 pts of rangers as a tax to get CPs who the knights couldnt afford to shoot and as such were capping things all game. Sure, their SUA got nerfed, but that -2 (which will soon go away) mean its too expensive to shoot real things at them, and shooting them with no-ap stuff if they are in cover means that what little hits on 5s and wounds will probably get saved. And even if 1 ranger makes it, he wins the objective because troops. Once the knights went down to second or third bracket they couldnt even hit them at all, and wasting time running towards them to charge was pointless. So they acomplished a lot, for 60 pts. each.

[Cheesegear]

Kabalites get Blasters (and Dark Lances, whatever you might say) and Guardians get to fail to wound then die.

I think you've missed my point. But to that, I say this...
- A Kabalite is 6 Points*, therefore good.
- A Kabalite with a Blaster is 23 Points...But is now S8, and AP-2 or more.
Both are good, but for different reasons.

*I checked my references so I could figure out how much a Kabalite with a Blaster was...Turns out they're 6. Not 7. Geez.

AP doesnt affect everyone equally, because you can get things to save on 'no' (like Hemlocks shooting at Leman Russes) and well every jump is a different bracket.

AP-1 - ~17%
AP-2 - ~33%
AP-3 - 50%
AP-4 - ~67%
AP-5 - ~84%

If you have 5+ Armour, against AP-2, your survivability goes from ~33% save to 0% save.
If you have 3+ Armour, against AP-2, your survivability goes from ~66% save, to ~33%.
Seems like both targets are having their Armour reduced by 33% chance...

Unless you're speaking relatively, in which case 100% more of Guardsmen die to AP-2, whilst only 50% more of Marines die to AP-2. Fine. I'll concede that. Then if we're playing that game, then we fall back on Guardsmen being 4 Points per model, and for that comparison to be apt, then '100% more' of dead Guardsmen must also equal 3 or more...And now we're on the train of thinking that leads back to anything over 7 Points is too expensive.

However, you could make the argument, that AP-2 isn't useful against models with 6+ Armour (e.g; Cultists and Orks, both not insignificant parts of the meta)... Fine. That's why AP-2 is good. It doesn't work against everything. It only works against most things. But if 6+ Armour is a thing (because it is). How do you deal with that without expending too many points? S5, AP- seems pretty good for that.
*goes back to list*
Oh. There it is. S5 is on the list.

And also because Inv.

...And if you follow that line of thinking, you'll come to why is AP-2 the new 'good'...Not best. But a criteria required to be considered good. If you're finding 3 and 4+ Invulnerables to be giving you a hard time...That's where Mortal Wounds come in. But, as I've previously, 40K isn't a game (yet) where not dealing Mortal Wounds makes a bad unit. That said, Mortal Wounds don't roll to wound, and they ignore all saves. They're the best - provided they're reliable to get (e.g; On a 3+, deal D3 Mortal Wounds | On a 5+ on 2d6, deal D3 Mortal Wounds).

However, if you can't deal Mortal Wounds, what should you be doing? What is the 'minimum threat value'?

[Voidhawk]

-[snip]- What is "cheap"? What is "durable"? What is "dangerous"?

In a world where Mortal Wounds exist, weapons have damage values, and the To-Wound table lets anyone kill anything (perhaps with some buffs), all three questions have the same answer: Wounds Per Point.

The most important factor in Durability is how many Wounds the opponent has to chew through before you start losing effectiveness.
The most important factor in Threat is how many shots your guns have.
Cheap, is simply the ratio between the other two and Price.

This is exactly the situation I was afraid of back at the beginning of 8th edition, when I saw they had dropped the old Vehicle Armour rules and given everything a toughness. Without defined boundaries of weapon-effectiveness the game turns into a math-swamp, and the most effective strategy becomes a calculable value. Game broke; redo from start.

As an aside, I redefined some important terms for myself a while back:
Light Infantry: Anything with 1 Wound (Cultists, Tactical Marines, etc). Damaged 1-to-1 by number of weapon shots.
Medium Infantry: Anything with 2 Wounds (Primaris, Terminators, etc). Damaged 1-to-2 by shots, unless the weapon is Dmg 2 or d3.
Heavy: Anything with 3+ Wounds (Necron Destroyers, Landraiders, etc). Damaged on a gradient, unless the weapon has Dmg 3+ or d6.

[Cheesegear]

Cheap Generally speaking, this only refers to Troops units. Their role is to fill double (or even triple) Battalions or a Brigade, and be Objective Secured with 'the most models.' That can only happen if they're cheap. Their offensive or defensive output is almost irrelevant. However, if they also fill Offense/Defense criteria, that makes them even better.
<7 Points

Offense For non-Troops units, you could do hard Math-hammer, and work out shots-per-point, and more importantly, Damage-per-point. However not everyone is going to play around with Excel for a few weeks - if they even know how. Luckily, I have played with Excel for ages, and these are the trends...
S5 or 8+ ('+1 to wound' and Poison also work) - If you can't be S5, and you can pay reasonably for S6, that's fine, too.
AP-2 or better
Mortal Wounds

Defense
T5 or T8 - As above, T6 is fine, if you're not paying too many points for it.
5+ Invulnerable or better
Ignore Wounds (5+) or better
Ignore Morale - Applies only to units of 6, with less than Ld9, and to all units with more than 7 models.

Notes
1. An individual unit, only needs to fit one of these criteria to be worth taking. The more criteria that an individual unit can fill, the better it is. An army, however, should try and fill as many of those criteria as possible.
2. Some units can conditionally fill those criteria. How reliable is it? 'On a roll of 6+ to wound, deal an additional Mortal Wound.' Hey look. It deals Mortal Wounds! ...Yeah. Kind of. See Note 4.
3. Stratagems will allow many units to fulfill one or more of these criteria. You only get one of those per phase. How many times in a game can you use that Stratagem before you run out of CPs?
4. A good 'Force Multiplier' will either a) bring a unit up to one or more criteria, or b) Allow a unit to fulfill its conditions (Note 2) more easily. If you are force multiplying a unit that already fulfills one or more criteria...Win more.
5. In order to be a bad unit, a unit must fulfill none of the criteria. A bad army, will fulfill as few criteria as possible.

This list has not factored in hard math-hammer. It will not tell you the best unit in any given Faction. Just what you should take - minimum - in order to not instant-lose every game.

[Forum Explorer]

I think part of the problem is opportunity cost. Like Craftworld Eldar would do fine using Guardians or Dire Avengers (Dire Avengers can even get a 5++ or 4++). But the problem is they can ally in Kabalite Warriors which are better. So I feel the question isn't 'is this a bad unit' but rather 'is it the best unit available to your army?' And if the latter question is no, then why are you taking it?


Tactical Marines are a perfect example of this. They don't have a role in which they aren't overshadowed by another unit.

Sadly this Chapter Approved won't really fix anything because they took an approach of 'Buffs not Nerfs', which is absolutely hilarious to me. People were complaining about too many nerfs, so they listened and only buffed stuff, which means Guard+Knights are still a problem. Well mostly buffed stuff. The nerfs that came down seemed to balance out with buffs to other units. But if you only took that unit (AKA the 90+ cultist armies) then you wouldn't see the buffs.

[Cheesegear]

Like Craftworld Eldar would do fine using Guardians or Dire Avengers (Dire Avengers can even get a 5++ or 4++)...

No. They wont. Again, I'll repeat. Competitively, Craftworlds are running no Troops. Their Troops are bad.

I'm not talking about 'what you can do'...I'm talking about...

So I feel the question isn't 'is this a bad unit' but rather 'is it the best unit available to your army?' And if the latter question is no, then why are you taking it?

Exactly.

So when you say Craftworlds are 'fine' using Guardians and Dire Avengers...No they're not. Because you put them down on the board against Drukhari or Thousand Sons and everything falls to ****, who have way better Troops than you do...And suddenly you'll find that you're not fine, because you aren't competing.

Because unless you're stacking buffs on buffs on buffs on Guardians, they're borderline useless.
Meanwhile, other armies have Troops units that do just fine, without rolling any dice to get more conditional buffs...Or they can get the same buffs, for less points and/or more reliably.

Guardians are your best option. They're not a good option.

Now, with Dire Avengers being 11 Points each...That's pretty expensive - considering. Now, what you can do, is bring Asurmen. Now. With Farseers and Farseer Skyrunners being as good as they are. With Autarch Skyrunners being as good as they are. Is it worth bringing Asurmen? He saves you from buying roughly six Shimmershields. However, most people are going to say that an Aura buffs three units. If you're buffing more than three units with a single model...Either you're gimping your deployment (because this is ITC and castle up, son), or you're effectively going to end up slow-playing.

So Asurmen is a waste of points. As a force multipler for Dire Avengers...He doesn't hand out Guide like a Farseer (and remember, you can have up to six Farseers). The BAT**** CRAZY THING, is that ****ing ASURMEN - SPACE MOSES!!! doesn't even have Path of Command. WTF!? Even worse, Shimmershields on Dire Avengers are only 10 Points (as of Saturday). Is Asurmen going down on Satuday? ...Haha, of course not.

...At this point, you're starting to realise something...
Dire Avengers are only force multiplied by Farseers and/or Autarchs. Except you know what? ...So is anything. And you know what? Guardians are cheaper. They've got Battle Focus. Hell, turns out Guardians aren't just farmers and militia anymore - they've got BS3+ for some reason.

Throw down Celestial Shield on your most biggest, most massive-est unit of Guardians, make 'em Iyanden (or Ulthwé, gotta get those Black Guardians) just 'cause you can. Any force multiplying being done by one of up to six of your Farseers, is chucked on the Guardians, and go time.

Turns out, Dire Avengers are not 'just fine'. They're bad. Even in their own Codex.

Uh oh...We're going outside the Codex now...weeoohweeoohweeooh...

Cultists are 3 Points less per model than Guardians (as of Saturday, was 4). They've got +1 to hit. +1 to wound. Shooting twice. They Ignore Wounds (5+), and they don't take Morale, and all of those buffs are stacked onto 32 models (as of Saturday...Was 40). Not 20. Don't even get me started on ****ing Tide of Traitors.
(inb4; Yes. I have been brutalised by Black Legion multiple times)

...Huh.
I think Craftworld players are being punk'd.

In case it wasn't obvious...This is me speaking in pretty close to full "If you aren't the best, then you're the worst" mode.

If you are doing 'just fine' with Guardians and Dire Avengers, then you do you.

Tactical Marines are a perfect example of this. They don't have a role in the current meta

Fixed that for you. 2-shot Boltguns are irrelevant on a model that costs 13 Points.

[LudDavenport]

Dark Eldar are in a really weird place. The codex is fairly minimalist, not a ton of weird rules/units. It doesn't seem to be written by a DE fan trying to buff their favorite faction. It's strong because fast is good, killy is good, cheap is good, and you would rather saturate the board with roughly equal value threats then have priority targets. Also their transports work... like, are there any other transports that actually see use anymore. Not being opentopped is kinda garbage.

All of this stuff was pretty much direct translations from earlier editions, the new edition just happened to make it great.

I honestly don't know what you could do to fix them though. Kabalites being 7 would help, but they aren't worth much more then that.

[Cheesegear]

Also their transports work... like, are there any other transports that actually see use anymore. Not being opentopped is kinda garbage.

Open-Topped is just one part of the pie.

Just think about it for a second. "I have a model on the board, with T5 and 6 Wounds each. They move 16" a turn - <Fly>, that is - and have 10 Poison shots per turn. Additionally, you have -1 to hit them in the Shooting phase, and they have a 5+ Invulnerable. Uhh...Lemme check. Nope. I triple-checked. 65 Points each. So I'll be running at least six for 400 Points. Uhh...Says here that they also get Obsession Bonuses, too. No, no. It's a Dedicated Transport, so I can take as many as I want. What? Dudes inside? I mean...I guess? But were you listening? 65 Points. Even without dudes inside I'll still give you a really bad day."

Now add in six Talos Engines with Haywire.

Then for your third Detachment you can have Harlequin Haywire Bikes.

[LudDavenport]

10 psudo bolter shots? This is what always gets me when talking about venoms. Unless you do crazy things like take True Born, it has 1 blaster and 0-4 more not!bolters. That seems kinda light to me. I guess I should try them out...

[Forum Explorer]

No. They wont. Again, I'll repeat. Competitively, Craftworlds are running no Troops. Their Troops are bad.

I'm not talking about 'what you can do'...I'm talking about...



Exactly.

So when you say Craftworlds are 'fine' using Guardians and Dire Avengers...No they're not. Because you put them down on the board against Drukhari or Thousand Sons and everything falls to ****, who have way better Troops than you do...And suddenly you'll find that you're not fine, because you aren't competing.

Because unless you're stacking buffs on buffs on buffs on Guardians, they're borderline useless.
Meanwhile, other armies have Troops units that do just fine, without rolling any dice to get more conditional buffs...Or they can get the same buffs, for less points and/or more reliably.

Guardians are your best option. They're not a good option.

Now, with Dire Avengers being 11 Points each...That's pretty expensive - considering. Now, what you can do, is bring Asurmen. Now. With Farseers and Farseer Skyrunners being as good as they are. With Autarch Skyrunners being as good as they are. Is it worth bringing Asurmen? He saves you from buying roughly six Shimmershields. However, most people are going to say that an Aura buffs three units. If you're buffing more than three units with a single model...Either you're gimping your deployment (because this is ITC and castle up, son), or you're effectively going to end up slow-playing.

So Asurmen is a waste of points. As a force multipler for Dire Avengers...He doesn't hand out Guide like a Farseer (and remember, you can have up to six Farseers). The BAT**** CRAZY THING, is that ****ing ASURMEN - SPACE MOSES!!! doesn't even have Path of Command. WTF!? Even worse, Shimmershields on Dire Avengers are only 10 Points (as of Saturday). Is Asurmen going down on Satuday? ...Haha, of course not.

...At this point, you're starting to realise something...
Dire Avengers are only force multiplied by Farseers and/or Autarchs. Except you know what? ...So is anything. And you know what? Guardians are cheaper. They've got Battle Focus. Hell, turns out Guardians aren't just farmers and militia anymore - they've got BS3+ for some reason.

Throw down Celestial Shield on your most biggest, most massive-est unit of Guardians, make 'em Iyanden (or Ulthwé, gotta get those Black Guardians) just 'cause you can. Any force multiplying being done by one of up to six of your Farseers, is chucked on the Guardians, and go time.

Turns out, Dire Avengers are not 'just fine'. They're bad. Even in their own Codex.

Uh oh...We're going outside the Codex now...weeoohweeoohweeooh...

Cultists are 3 Points less per model than Guardians (as of Saturday, was 4). They've got +1 to hit. +1 to wound. Shooting twice. They Ignore Wounds (5+), and they don't take Morale, and all of those buffs are stacked onto 32 models (as of Saturday...Was 40). Not 20. Don't even get me started on ****ing Tide of Traitors.
(inb4; Yes. I have been brutalised by Black Legion multiple times)

...Huh.
I think Craftworld players are being punk'd.

In case it wasn't obvious...This is me speaking in pretty close to full "If you aren't the best, then you're the worst" mode.

If you are doing 'just fine' with Guardians and Dire Avengers, then you do you.

My point was more that Eldar would be fine competitively without allies. Guardians, Dire Avengers, and Rangers would do fine. Not as well as Kabalitte Warriors, but still they would do a good enough job that the rest of the army would still work. And hey, in part that's because to they answer 'sometimes' to a bunch of your questions.

Cheap?
Guardians are 8, so pretty close.

Offense
AP -3 sometimes
Shurikan Cannon for S6 (pretty cheap, no loss of mobility)


Defense
5++ on a (effective) 12 point per model (if you've got 10 Dire Avengers).
4++ for one unit of Guardians
Basically ignore morale since there are 3 different ways to do it.
-1 to hit for Rangers

Speaking of, I want to add -1 to hit for a defense question.

Really part of the problem is that Doom works on any allied unit, letting Drukhari getting access to a massive buff that they really have no business getting. Which is an easy fix really.

[Cheesegear]

10 psudo bolter shots?

That wound everything on a 4+. This is important 'cause welcome to Daemon Prince town.

That seems kinda light to me.

Venoms are only bad if you exclusively use them to kill T3 models. Exclusively.

My point was more that Eldar would be fine competitively without allies.

And yet they're not.

Cheap? Guardians are 8, so pretty close.

So, not 7 or less on a Troops unit. Therefore not competitive. Regardless of anything else, you've already failed at the first hurdle on a Troops unit, specifically. To make up for the fact that you're going to want at least ~60 of 'em to make two Battalions or one Brigade, they're gonna have to be real special...

AP -3 on a 6 to wound with no way for +1 to wound
Shurikan Cannon for S6

Fixed that for you. In the same way that I don't rate 'Do Mortal Wounds on a 6+' as 'doing Mortal Wounds'.
So far you're on 'One model per 10 has S6' ...So the other 9 are doing what? Praying for 6s?

4++ for one unit of Guardians

Yep. Spearheads are allowed a few Troop choices. Continue. Can't see a reason to take more than exactly one unit of Guardians...Which means not forming a Battalion. Which means they're unlikely to be competitive without Allies.

Basically ignore morale since there are 3 different ways to do it.

We have Iyanden. Cool.
Insane Bravery doesn't count. If it does...Cool. Use it once on the aforementioned one unit of Guardians. It's a Stratagem, so you can't use it more than once.

What else you got?

Really part of the problem is that Doom works on any allied unit

It sure does. Which works real good on Poison.

Which is an easy fix really.

Doesn't seem like it is. Otherwise it would've happened.


For the record, this is the competitive meta. If you think it's harsh and feels like cancer to the game... Yes, it is. And GW didn't fix it.