Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering

[LansXero]

So a friend of mine is looking to get into WH40K at the super-casual/just learning stage. Are there decent starter armies? Things that expose you to the whole game while not being annoying to play or super horrible (or super expensive)? Thoughts? What's a good way to start?

IMHO Know No Fear is the best starter currently around.

[Voidhawk]

So a friend of mine is looking to get into WH40K at the super-casual/just learning stage. Are there decent starter armies? Things that expose you to the whole game while not being annoying to play or super horrible (or super expensive)? Thoughts? What's a good way to start?

What part of it interests him the most? What's gotten him interested enough to start? As a hobby, is has a high cost in both currency and personal time/energy invested, so the most important thing is choosing a race/playstyle that matches his temperament. If you tell us what he wants to do, we can then give advice so that he doesn't buy models that make him auto-lose his first few games.

[Cheesegear]

What's a good way to start?

It...Depends.
If your friend is looking to get into 40K by themselves, just buying two or three of some (of the better) Start Collecting! boxes will have a solid core of HQ and Troops units in fairly cheap order. The only problem with buying the same box three times, is it leads to a lack of variety in your model choice early on. And if someone doesn't have 'fun' early with a variety of different units, they might want to quit. Though it depends on the personality.

If your friend is looking to get into 40K with you, or someone else. Then there are a whole range of options. However the limiting factor in all of the two-Faction sets require that both parties are actually invested in the products being sold;

Dark Imperium / Know No Fear: Dark Imperium is an excellent start, most notably because it contains a Rulebook that you don't have to buy for extra money. The Space Marine side is...Okay, and the two models that aren't very good, are Space Marine Characters, which means that they're easily replaceable monetarily speaking. The Death Guard side is...Less good. One of the biggest recommendations for the Death Guard side is working out how to convert the Lord of Contagion model into a reasonable Typhus facsimile (it's not even hard). If you can't shell out for Dark Imperium, then Know No Fear is really, really good. However my strong recommendation is that if you do need to buy the Rulebook anyway, then you're better off buying the full Dark Imperium. However, there is a recent revelation concerning Know No Fear...

Forgebane: Forgebane is still out (In AU, at least) and it's a fantastic start to an AdMech army, and the dual Armigers will easily slot into every Imperium army you ever make from now on, forever. The box is...Less good...For Necron players. If anyone wants to 'go halves' in Forgebane, in the Necron half, they are so much better off spending almost the exact same money for the Necron Start Collecting! box which was recently revamped to be one of the best ones that GW has out.

Tooth and Claw: Total garbage for Space Wolf players. Exactly what you need to start Genestealer Cults. However there is a Codex on the way (probably November, if not sooner). But for real, you've got to get rid of the Space Wolves half if you even remotely want to consider buying Tooth and Claw and get your money's worth.

Wake the Dead: Just announced this week, Wake the Dead is almost like Know No Fear except better or worse, depending on who you ask. Wake the Dead is guaranteed to be more expensive than Know No Fear, even if you go halves. However, Wake the Dead has a Sword!Lieutenant, instead of a garbage Gravis Captain, and it contains the 'proper' boxes for Intercessors and Inceptors - in case you actually want to customise them. However, where Wake the Dead trips itself, is that it gives the Space Marine player Reivers, instead of Hellblasters. Which basically locks you into playing Blood Angels - even if the marketing materials say otherwise - because Reivers are total trash unless they're Blood Angels. The Craftworlds' side of Wake the Dead is totally weak, especially if it's branding itself as Saim-Hann. Still...If one person wants to play Space Marines (of indeterminate colour) and their friend wants to play Craftworlds...Well...It's a start that gets them both on board. What else is there to say?

Ultimately, Dark Imperium is intended as the Starter. Know No Fear is a close second, however KNF lacks a Rulebook.
If you want to play something that isn't Space Marines or Death Guard, you're almost guaranteed to do well with 2-3 Start Collecting! boxes...

I strongly recommend the following;
Drukhari
Orks Probably hold off. If Orks get a new SC! box like Drukhari and Necrons did, the new one is guaranteed to be better.
Deathwatch
Daemons of Khorne
Militarum Tempestus ++
Skitarii - However Forgebane is better if you can palm off the Necrons.
Necrons ++ - Don't let anyone palm Forgebane off on you. The SC! box is way better for the same price if you're asked to 'split' Forgebane with your AdMech friend (who is getting a way better deal)
Daemons of Tzeentch +
Astra Militarum
Daemons of Nurgle

All the other SC! boxes are basically worthless, and/or inferior to Know No Fear.

[CrazyPenguin]

I strongly recommend the following;
Drukhari
Orks Probably hold off. If Orks get a new SC! box like Drukhari and Necrons did, the new one is guaranteed to be better.
Deathwatch
Daemons of Khorne
Militarum Tempestus ++
Skitarii - However Forgebane is better if you can palm off the Necrons.
Necrons ++ - Don't let anyone palm Forgebane off on you. The SC! box is way better for the same price if you're asked to 'split' Forgebane with your AdMech friend (who is getting a way better deal)
Daemons of Tzeentch +
Astra Militarum
Daemons of Nurgle

All the other SC! boxes are basically worthless, and/or inferior to Know No Fear.

The T'au box is a decent bang for your buck, at the very least.

[Cheesegear]

The T'au box is a decent bang for your buck...

Short answer; No it isn't.

Long answer; [Insert discussion on why T'au are trash-tier (a new player is certainly in for a bad time even in a casual meta). Then a brief outline of how the SC! box doesn't contain Riptides or Hammerheads and is almost a total waste of money.]

[Tome]

The T'au box is a decent bang for your buck, at the very least.

In terms of how much it'd cost to buy seperately? Sure.

In terms of how much you'll actually use? Nope. The fire warriors are fine but the rest of the box is pretty much unusable, meaning you're essentially paying extra for a box of fire warriors. The exception is if you use the crisis suits as commanders, in which case a single box might be useful.

In terms of whether I'd recommend picking up Tau to a new player? Not in this edition (barring some really big changes in the next errata, and I mean both big ol' point reductions AND improvements to unit/weapon statlines).

[9mm]

*looks at his painting table and realizes he's nearly just 1 push fit away from fielding an honest to goodness SM patrol*

Kill TEEEAMMMM!

*shakes fist*

obviously working as GW intended.

[Turalisj]

The T'au box is a decent bang for your buck, at the very least.

What Cheese said. No Hammerheads, Riptides, or a Tiger Shark.

Because the only way Tau can really win is a pair of $250USD models.

[Cheesegear]

So, in Kill Team, we have a situation where Terrain actually does something; -1 to hit, -1 to Injury. As predicted, and just like 5th Ed., when terrain is actually worth having, shooty models effectively become meaningless unless they are the best shooty models, and all's anyone ever tries to do is Melee each other. Isn't that what I said would happen if you made Terrain actually matter? What a fun game.

[LansXero]

Wake the Dead: Just announced this week, Wake the Dead is almost like Know No Fear except better or worse, depending on who you ask. Wake the Dead is guaranteed to be more expensive than Know No Fear, even if you go halves. However, Wake the Dead has a Sword!Lieutenant, instead of a garbage Gravis Captain, and it contains the 'proper' boxes for Intercessors and Inceptors - in case you actually want to customise them. However, where Wake the Dead trips itself, is that it gives the Space Marine player Reivers, instead of Hellblasters. Which basically locks you into playing Blood Angels - even if the marketing materials say otherwise - because Reivers are total trash unless they're Blood Angels. The Craftworlds' side of Wake the Dead is totally weak, especially if it's branding itself as Saim-Hann. Still...If one person wants to play Space Marines (of indeterminate colour) and their friend wants to play Craftworlds...Well...It's a start that gets them both on board. What else is there to say?

At Tooth and Claw price, its a really weak set.

[Mystic Muse]

My Flying Hive Tyrant with Chameleonic Mutation is charging a Tesseract vault. It makes several successful overwatch shots.

Assuming no other modifiers, do the 6s confer 3 hits instead of 1, or do hit penalties apply, thus making them just regular hits?

[Cheesegear]

Assuming no other modifiers, do the 6s confer 3 hits instead of 1

Overwatch can't be modified, except in very specific circumstances (e.g; Stratagems that are explicit that they do). So, yes. 6s are 6s. It's why Tesla is good.

[JNAProductions]

Overwatch can't be modified, except in very specific circumstances (e.g; Stratagems that are explicit that they do). So, yes. 6s are 6s. It's why Tesla is good.

Tis wrong, Cheese.

You always HIT on a 6, but modifiers STILL APPLY. So if you have a -1 on Overwatch, 6s hit, but if you're overcharging Plasma, you kill yourself on a 1 AND a 2.

Same with Tesla. You hit on a 6, but no bonuses.

[Cheesegear]

You always HIT on a 6, but modifiers STILL APPLY. So if you have a -1 on Overwatch, 6s hit, but if you're overcharging Plasma, you kill yourself on a 1 AND a 2.

...Huh? ...So it is. I don't think I've ever seen anyone play it that way. Will look into further.

[Mystic Muse]

Tis wrong, Cheese.

You always HIT on a 6, but modifiers STILL APPLY. So if you have a -1 on Overwatch, 6s hit, but if you're overcharging Plasma, you kill yourself on a 1 AND a 2.

Same with Tesla. You hit on a 6, but no bonuses.

This is what I had thought based on the wording. Thank you for confirming.

I'm playing someone next month in Escalation League who has a Tesseract Vault, so I'm expecting this to come up and wanted to know how to handle it if it does.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Kill Team
Part 3 - Choosing a Kill Team (Xenos)

Part 1; What makes a Kill Team work?
Part 2; Check out the top, for why Injury matters, and what makes a good Specialist.

<Aeldari>

Spoiler: Asuryani

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Ancient Doom: Re-roll in the Fight phase against <Slaanesh> models on a turn in which you Charge or are Charged. Don't even read this sentence. Heretic Astartes will destroy you in Melee, and you can bet that when Slaaneshi Daemons rock up in Kill Team, they'll ruin you, too. Additionally, you have +1 to Nerve tests within 3" of any <Slaanesh> models...That is, if Slaanesh models start to Melee you, you're in trouble, and the first part of Ancient Doom only tricks you into thinking you have a chance.

Battle Focus: You don't count as Advancing when you do. This is pretty good since everything you own that's actually any good in your Roster is an Assault weapon. Solid.

Guardian Defenders: 7 Points a dude is pretty good. Unfortunately, they're 7 Points because they're trash. And other Factions only pay 4 Points for their trash. No. The reason you take Guardian Defenders is because of their guns. Assault 2 with the possibility of AP-3. Unfortunately, the guns only have a 12" range. But that's good, because you can Advance without penalties and get into that short range. Nice. In response? Your opponent Readies their entire Team and kills you before you get to shoot. So, yeah. You want to go second, that way you know if your opponent has Readied or not before you front up and get all your models killed. Still, without Sniper, your Heavy weapons are also basically useless...

• Heavy Weapon Platform: Pick up the Scatter Laser. If you're going to be taking -2 to hit (which you will be) you may as well want the most shots you can, in order to roll some 6s and actually get some use out of the ~10 Point model you picked up.

Storm Guardians: Hot garbage.

• Storm Guardian Gunner: The Battle Focus on the Fusion Gun is neat. Unfortunately, without Demolitions or the ability to spam, the Flamers barely work like they do in other Factions (specifically, Orks). At the end of the day, Guardians are still Guardians, and the only thing that matters is the guns they hold. But the guns they hold...Aren't even that good.

Rangers: They're effectively going to give your opponent -3 to hit, which is really strong, and, on the return, you don't even take negs to hit based on Long Range. Unfortunately the main problem is that S4, AP- isn't anything. And you still have to remember that in Kill Team, an unsaved Wound doesn't necessarily even remove models from the board, and if your target is Obscured, you have even less chance of removing a model.

Dire Avengers: Better Armour, and better range on the guns. Which means that you don't actually have to leave your Deployment Zone to be in Short Range, which means you're less likely to take another neg to hit. Which actually means that your guns are more effective. The difference between Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers is only 3 Points. Which only means that ultimately for every three 'Avengers, you could take x4 Guardians instead. As aforementioned; Better Armour, Better Guns. Not a huge loss. Losing one model wont break you. Avengers are also slightly better at Melee, 'cause they Overwatch on a 5+ (but you don't have Pistols...). But you still need that Guardian Defender if you want to take that Heavy Weapon Platform.

• Dire Avenger Exarch: Pick up the Twin Catapults and shoot as much as you want. Dire Avengers are fine in Melee, but will get rolled by anything that's actually worth a damn. The Shimmershield is bad, because it has a 2" range, which actually means that your opponent gets to shoot your other models, as well. As opposed to not having your stuff 2" together, which means that your dudes can't even get shot at, so why do they need an Invulnerable? Point is, Dire Avenger Exarchs are the best thing that the Asuryani have...And they're still not even that good. Sorry.

Matchless Agility; Auto-roll 6" for your Advance. Very good if your opponent goes first and hasn't Readied his models.
Feigned Retreat; Fall Back and Shoot. For 1 CP it will get you out of Melee. But the real amazing part is that your model actually survived Melee against a dedicated opponent.
Phantasm; Redeploy a single model. For 2 CPs this isn't even close to worth it. Since your first turn will then be spent barely competing.
Fire and Fade; Make a normal Move, after Shooting. Nice. Especially if your model's shooting doesn't go as well as you would've liked.
Asurmen's Blessing; A single <Dire Avenger> can re-roll to hit that Shooting phase. Would've been better if it was re-roll to wound.
Rune of Ynnead; For 2 CPs, one of your models can take a Flesh Wound instead of going OoA.

Know Your Enemy: Asuryani aren't that good. Their Tactics aren't that good. Your opponent putting 8 Dire Avengers on the board can be a little difficult to handle. But if you just rush them with Melee, they'll fall apart fairly quickly. There's nothing too tricky about dealing with Asuryani...And that's their problem. What you see, is exactly what you get, and all you have to do is just...Remove their models. No particular order. T3, 4+ Armour. 1 Wound each. It's not that hard. Asuryani are bottom-tier for a reason. Extreme lack of customisability, and the tools they do have, aren't even that good.

Spoiler: Drukhari

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Power From Pain: Over the course of the Battle Rounds, your Team starts gaining extra bonuses for free. The bonuses are also cumulative.

• Round 1. Ignore Wounds (6+)
• 2. Re-roll to Advance and Charge.
• 3. +1 to hit in the Fight phase.
• 4. Re-roll Nerve tests.
• 5+. Enemy models get -1 Ld whilst any models in your Team are near them.

Ultimately your Drukhari Team should heavily revolve around Melee (as should all Kill Teams, really) with a few Shooty models thrown in just to make sure you can Ready some of your models and try and take out some of your opponent's more problematic models (e.g; Anything with ranged weapons that auto-hit).

Combat Drugs: On top of Power From Pain, your Wyches pick up an extra rule because Warriors are dumb. In any case, what you roll is totally random, and you have no way to re-roll it. At the end of the day, point is, Wyches are better than Warriors. Like...Most of the time.

Kablite Warrior: Same 7 Points as Asuryani Guardians. But, you wound everything in the game on 4+, but you don't get to insta-kill models on 6s to wound. However, your 'long range' is 12", not 6", which means that your Warriors end up being way safer than Guardians, and that's in addition Ignore Wounds (6+), making them more resilient anyway. So, whilst Warriors aren't 'that good' in the grand scheme of Kill Team, they are at least better than Guardians for the same points cost.

• Kabalite Warrior Gunner: You get to pick up the Sniper Specialist so that lets you pick up Splinter Cannons for really, really good. Unfortunately, Gunner weapons are capped like some of the worst Kill Teams. So, even though you get two Gunners, you only get one Splinter Cannon. Then again, Shredders are also really, really good. However, Shredders also suffer from being a 'Flamer'-esque weapon that doesn't auto-hit. However, S6 with re-rolls to wound is actually really good. So you should be okay.
• Syrabite: Access to Blast Pistols is really strong. With a Blast Pistol, your goal is to get Charged, which means in the following Shooting phase you get to say "Dodge this." and totally wreck whatever has Charged you. That's maybe after you might've had an Overwatch. In any case, Blast Pistols. Really good. It doesn't really matter what Melee weapon you have because Syrabites aren't good in Melee - they're still Aeldari.

Wyches: Depending on what Combat Drugs you roll, Wyches can either be super-broken, or just pretty good. And all of it completely revolves around how soon you can Charge, and whether or not you can even complete your Charges - 'cause Overwatch. Three attacks each (plus Combat Drugs), with a 4+ Invulnerable in the Fight phase, Wyches are actually really strong Melee models if they can get there. Because T3 with a 6+ save, is...Not very good. And at 8 Points each, Wyches don't really have the wiggle room to be...Bad. So you can always switch back to Warriors. But then you become a shooty Team, and there are way better shooty Teams out there, whilst Melee Teams? Not so much. However, Wyches are just so easy to counter because they effectively have no save during Overwatch.

• Wych Fighter: Shardnet & Impaler is 2 Damage, giving double Injury rolls. Weirdly, it also comes with AP-1 and +1 Attack. So...Yeah. Still, the problem of survivability doesn't go away. Having access to three Fighters in a Team is also really, really good. More special weapons = More better.
• Hekatrix: Same access to Blast Pistols as Syrabites. So that that. But, with the extra Attack coming from being a Wych (plus Combat Drugs and the Invulnerable), a Hekatrix is actually worth a damn in Melee. However, as a Wych, you really want to be doing the Charges, which means that you can't shoot the Blast Pistol. However, with the restriction on your opponent Falling Back, you can actually shoot the Pistol and consolidate into the next model. So...Yeah. The unfortunate thing, is that this falls into the category of 'Things You Can Do', and, taken in a vacuum (i.e; on paper), a Hekatrix appears really, really good - and she is - the problem is the models that she is surrounded by...Just aren't that strong.

Fire and Fade; Make a 7" move after your models shoot. Decent.
Cruel Deception; Fall Back and Shoot in the same Round.
Pray They Don't Take You Alive; If you kill your opponent's Leader in the Fight phase, for 2 CPs, the rest of your opponent's Team gets -1 Leadership. Extremely specific. Expensive. And the ultimate effect isn't even worth it.
Torment Grenade; Use before attacking with a Phanny Launcher. Any model hit by the Phanny Launcher, rolls 3d6 against Leadership (after taking the -1) if you roll higher, the target(s) take a Mortal Wound. For 2 CPs. It's not great. But it's not even close to being a bad idea. The main problem with this Tactic is that you use it before you roll how many shots you have with the Phanny Launcher, and, unfortunately, even if you do have the extra CP lying around, 'number of shots' isn't a roll that you can use Tactical Re-roll for. Remember how Astartes Teams just have to roll to hit, and do D3 Mortal Wounds? And even when they aren't using the Tactic, the model still has a Heavy Bolter, and isn't garbage?

Slicing Noose Expanion As with any Team that gets shafted by GW and only gets 4 Tactics in the Core Rules, you actually need this...
Bloodied Grace; A <Wych> can consolidate 6", instead of 3". Really strong.
Murderous Rivalry; For 2 CPs, if you have two models that completed their Charges within 4" of each other, they attack at 'the same time', which means that you get to Fight with two models before your opponent gets to Fight...Providing that your opponent also has models that Charged that Round. This isn't that great. But, you'll know when you need it, when you need it.
Hyperstimm; A model from your Kill Team with Combat Drugs, doubles the effect of the Drug, for that Round. At the end of the Round, roll a 1 and take a Mortal Wound. This can be amazing if you have a good Drug on board.
Hunt From the Shadows; When one of your models is targeted in the Shooting phase and is Obscured, pay 1 CP to get +1 to saves for the rest of the phase. It's a shame that Wyches only have an Invulnerable in the Fight phase, which means that Wyches die real hard to Pistols in the Shooting phase so this Tactic doesn't work on Wyches, FFS! You have to be Obscured? How would that even work!? Um...Yeah...What was I saying... Point is, I've seen it going around that a Hekatrix can have a 3+ Invulnerable, which is straight up wrong.
Lightning-Fast Reactions; When one of your models is targeted in a phase, pay 1 CP to give your opponent -1 to hit against that model for the rest of the phase. Luckily, this is only 1 CP. So you can use Hunt... in the Shooting phase, and Lightning-Fast... in the same Round, which is actually pretty useful. But, Lightning-Fast... is always going to be the better of the two, if you only have 1 CP left. The best thing about Lightning-Fast... is that you don't need to be Obscured.
Architect of Pain; Give one of your models +1 Round on the Power From Pain table...For one Round.

Sector Imperialis - Profane the Ruins; Choose an Eldritch Ruin (lol) on the board. Models in your Team gets +1 Round to Power From Pain whilst within 1" of the Ruin. This is so bad. Why is it 2 CPs when Killzones are optional and your opponent can just refuse to play? This is awful. And bad. And Tactics based on Terrain are bad.

Know Your Enemy: Similar to the Asuryani, there are no models in the Roster that particularly stand out. Some Teams might have to watch out because Drukhari can start stacking negs to your Leadership. But Leadership only matters once half your models take Flesh Wounds or are dead. And for that to happen, Drukhari actually have to deal wounds, first. Which they can't really do, since only one model in their Team gets a Shredder... Oh, right. Take out the Splinter Cannon ASAP. Other than that, nothing really matters. It's an Aeldari Team with none of the 'main Codex' tricks that make Aeldari armies good.

Spoiler: Harlequins

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Players: At 12 Points a model, Harlequins can have up to 8 models in their Team. However, more likely, their Team is going to come out at 5-6 models, because who doesn't like special weapons? With the Flip Belt, Harlequins ignore Terrain and other models. Additionally, with Rising Crescendo, Harlequins roll 3d6 for Charge distance and can declare a Charge within 18", instead of 12". Combining the two rules, means that Harlequins can stay out of Line of Sight indefinitely, and Charge across Terrain - including massive heights - whenever they feel like it. In order to shaft Harlequin players, just make sure that your board isn't exclusively made up of Terrain that block LoS, and never let the Harlequin player set up the Terrain. Additionally, Harlequins always have a 4+ Invulnerable save, just to make life that little bit more difficult.

• Fusion Pistols are really good, as they give you an edge when your opponent Charges you, and their massive burst Damage makes life extremely difficult for Tyranid Warriors and Lictors, not to mention the ton of Injury rolls you get to make whenever you shoot from the hip and blow someone away. If you're the one making the Charges, then Fusion Pistols are a total waste of points and what you doing?
• Kisses are the multi-Damage Melee weapon, and are therefore the best. However, it's important to remember that x4 Kisses equates to a fifth Harlequin. But that's not so important because Harlequins come stock at Ld8, so who cares how many models you have, as long as they're all good? Which Players, are. If you don't want to shell out for the Kiss, then go with the Caress - especially against Death Guard - then, if you must, go for the Embrace. The only reason to ever have Harlequin Blades is if you actually do want to run the full 8 Players, because you know that your opponent is going to tailor real hard against you, and 4+ Invulnerables only go so far.

Prismatic Blur; When a model Advances, they get a 3++ for 1 CP. Decent.
Cegorach's Jest; When your opponent Falls Back, you can shoot them in the back for 2 CPs. Not bad.
Warrior Acrobats; Auto-Advance 6". Combine with Prismatic Blur for a total of 2 CPs for the Round.
War Dancers; At the end of the Fight phase, pick one of your models to Fight again. Probably not as useful for Harlequins, since anything in Melee with them should already be dead. That said, if they're not dead, they're going to be a severe problem if you don't kill them (e.g; Deathwatch and Tyranids).
Fire and Fade; The standard Aeldari fare. 7" Move after you shoot.
Mirthless Hatred; One of your models can re-roll to hit and wound against <Slaanesh> models in the Fight phase... Not that you'd need it.

Know Your Enemy: Harlequins' Invulnerable save is better than their normal save. So any time you actually pay points for a weapon with AP, you're wasting your points. If it's S4 or over, and/or does multi-Damage, that's good enough to deal with Harlequins. Especially 'cause S4+, AP- is usually cheaper. Even Frag Grenades can give Harlequins some serious problems, because for free, you get to do a lot of shots. Anyway, Harlequins only have one trick in their arsenal; That is, Charging you. If you bring a ton of models with weapons that auto-hit, there's not really anything that they can do against you (unless they've set up the terrain so that it's only LoS Blocking stuff on the board). Additionally, most Harlequin teams are paying through the nose for weapons with AP values (just like you normally would), so if you're Deathwatch, just strap on Storm Shields and there's not really a lot that they can do, especially since you're also Space Marines, and are ignoring Flesh Wounds...Just try and stay out of range of those Fusion Pistols.

Xenos

Spoiler: Necrons

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Reanimation Protocols: After your opponent rolls for Injury, roll a '6'. Your model isn't Injured at all, and remove all Flesh Wounds. This is pretty good, and extremely good when your model just straight up heals 2 Flesh Wounds and goes back to nothing wrong. Happens after every Injury roll. Good stuff. Unfortunately, it's really, the only trick that Necrons have.

Necron Warriors: 12 Points each. Shoot Gauss.

Immortals: 16 Points for not much at all. Unfortunately, GW screwed the pooch, and forgot to make Tesla happen on an 'unmodified 6'. Which, in Kill Team, with the massive amount of negs to hit you get, will mean that Tesla will rarely - if ever - process. Good job GW, you ruined it.

Flayed Ones: Flayed Ones are...Actually pretty good. At 10 Points each and 3 Attacks each, with re-rolls to wound, they're actually not bad at all. Unfortunately their Move of 5" is fairly bad, and you're really relying on that Veteran Advance at the start of the game to get into Melee.

Deathmark: Better than an Immortal with Tesla ('cause GW ****ed it up), but worse than an Immortal with Gauss. Occasionally you'll do Mortal Wounds.

Prime Reanimation Protocols; For 2 CPs, your opponent rolls 2 Injury dice against your model and picks the lowest...And then you roll a '6' and ignore it?
Disruption Fields; Give one of your models +1 Strength until the end of the Fight phase.
Targeting Protocols; +1 to hit against a model that's Obscured. So...One Tesla will be good? In any case, this does not say 'ignore Obscuration'. That would be a different thing.
Mindshackle Scarabs; In the Shooting phase, pick an enemy model within 6" of any of yours. Roll 2d6 against their Leadership. If you win, you can make a shooting attack with your opponent's models as if it was part of your Team. Really amazingly strong when it works. That's why it's 2 CPs.
Flensing Fury; When a <Flayed One> rolls a 6+ to wound in the Fight phase, +1 Damage on that attack. Neat. Especially 'cause Flayed Ones re-roll to wound, and you should absolutely turn those 1s into 6s.
Overcharged Disintegration; Give a Gauss weapon in your Team an extra -1 AP for one phase...For 2 CPs.

Expansion Announced. Check back later for more Tactics.

Know Your Enemy: You do not want to be giving Necrons Flesh Wounds, 'cause that means that they're not dead, which means on the next Injury roll, they can roll a '6' and go back to full health. Your goal against Necrons is to go straight to OoA, do not pass 'Go'. There's always a chance they can roll a '6' and ignore OoA. But the point is, that the more Flesh Wounds they eventually get, the more chances they have to roll a '6' and ignore everything. That means...You guessed it...Multi-Damage weapons! It's also important to remember that Necrons have very little Melee power at all, and they have no weapons that auto-hit during Overwatch. So, if you can Charge them, do so.

[9mm]

While we wait for the FAQ to drop, its time to work on kill team models.

Spoiler: Testing Sargent #2 poses ideas

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hmm wonder how I'd go about kit bashing the hanging gun to the pointing arm...

[druid91]

So, in Kill Team, we have a situation where Terrain actually does something; -1 to hit, -1 to Injury. As predicted, and just like 5th Ed., when terrain is actually worth having, shooty models effectively become meaningless unless they are the best shooty models, and all's anyone ever tries to do is Melee each other. Isn't that what I said would happen if you made Terrain actually matter? What a fun game.

1.) Lay traps on Terrain to punish moving on or around it to funnel the enemy into the open.

2.) Line up a gunline to take advantage of such.

3.) ????

4.) Profit.

[Cheesegear]

1.) Lay traps on Terrain to punish moving on or around it to funnel the enemy into the open.

2.) Line up a gunline to take advantage of such.

3.) ????

4.) Profit.

"Terrain too strong, nerf gunlines."
Solution; Make life difficult for only counter.

[Forum Explorer]

Guide to Kill Team
Part 3 - Choosing a Kill Team (Xenos)

Part 1; What makes a Kill Team work?
Part 2; Check out the top, for why Injury matters, and what makes a good Specialist.

<Aeldari>

Spoiler: Asuryani

Show

Ancient Doom: Re-roll in the Fight phase against <Slaanesh> models on a turn in which you Charge or are Charged. Don't even read this sentence. Heretic Astartes will destroy you in Melee, and you can bet that when Slaaneshi Daemons rock up in Kill Team, they'll ruin you, too. Additionally, you have +1 to Nerve tests within 3" of any <Slaanesh> models...That is, if Slaanesh models start to Melee you, you're in trouble, and the first part of Ancient Doom only tricks you into thinking you have a chance.

Battle Focus: You don't count as Advancing when you do. This is pretty good since everything you own that's actually any good in your Roster is an Assault weapon. Solid.

Guardian Defenders: 7 Points a dude is pretty good. Unfortunately, they're 7 Points because they're trash. And other Factions only pay 4 Points for their trash. No. The reason you take Guardian Defenders is because of their guns. Assault 2 with the possibility of AP-3. Unfortunately, the guns only have a 12" range. But that's good, because you can Advance without penalties and get into that short range. Nice. In response? Your opponent Readies their entire Team and kills you before you get to shoot. So, yeah. You want to go second, that way you know if your opponent has Readied or not before you front up and get all your models killed. Still, without Sniper, your Heavy weapons are also basically useless...

• Heavy Weapon Platform: Pick up the Scatter Laser. If you're going to be taking -2 to hit (which you will be) you may as well want the most shots you can, in order to roll some 6s and actually get some use out of the ~10 Point model you picked up.

Storm Guardians: Hot garbage.

• Storm Guardian Gunner: The Battle Focus on the Fusion Gun is neat. Unfortunately, without Demolitions or the ability to spam, the Flamers barely work like they do in other Factions (specifically, Orks). At the end of the day, Guardians are still Guardians, and the only thing that matters is the guns they hold. But the guns they hold...Aren't even that good.

Rangers: They're effectively going to give your opponent -3 to hit, which is really strong, and, on the return, you don't even take negs to hit based on Long Range. Unfortunately the main problem is that S4, AP- isn't anything. And you still have to remember that in Kill Team, an unsaved Wound doesn't necessarily even remove models from the board, and if your target is Obscured, you have even less chance of removing a model.

Dire Avengers: Better Armour, and better range on the guns. Which means that you don't actually have to leave your Deployment Zone to be in Short Range, which means you're less likely to take another neg to hit. Which actually means that your guns are more effective. The difference between Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers is only 3 Points. Which only means that ultimately for every three 'Avengers, you could take x4 Guardians instead. As aforementioned; Better Armour, Better Guns. Not a huge loss. Losing one model wont break you. Avengers are also slightly better at Melee, 'cause they Overwatch on a 5+ (but you don't have Pistols...). But you still need that Guardian Defender if you want to take that Heavy Weapon Platform.

• Dire Avenger Exarch: Pick up the Twin Catapults and shoot as much as you want. Dire Avengers are fine in Melee, but will get rolled by anything that's actually worth a damn. The Shimmershield is bad, because it has a 2" range, which actually means that your opponent gets to shoot your other models, as well. As opposed to not having your stuff 2" together, which means that your dudes can't even get shot at, so why do they need an Invulnerable? Point is, Dire Avenger Exarchs are the best thing that the Asuryani have...And they're still not even that good. Sorry.

Matchless Agility; Auto-roll 6" for your Advance. Very good if your opponent goes first and hasn't Readied his models.
Feigned Retreat; Fall Back and Shoot. For 1 CP it will get you out of Melee. But the real amazing part is that your model actually survived Melee against a dedicated opponent.
Phantasm; Redeploy a single model. For 2 CPs this isn't even close to worth it. Since your first turn will then be spent barely competing.
Fire and Fade; Make a normal Move, after Shooting. Nice. Especially if your model's shooting doesn't go as well as you would've liked.
Asurmen's Blessing; A single <Dire Avenger> can re-roll to hit that Shooting phase. Would've been better if it was re-roll to wound.
Rune of Ynnead; For 2 CPs, one of your models can take a Flesh Wound instead of going OoA.

Know Your Enemy: Asuryani aren't that good. Their Tactics aren't that good. Your opponent putting 8 Dire Avengers on the board can be a little difficult to handle. But if you just rush them with Melee, they'll fall apart fairly quickly. There's nothing too tricky about dealing with Asuryani...And that's their problem. What you see, is exactly what you get, and all you have to do is just...Remove their models. No particular order. T3, 4+ Armour. 1 Wound each. It's not that hard. Asuryani are bottom-tier for a reason. Extreme lack of customisability, and the tools they do have, aren't even that good.

I actually recommend Starcannons. With a 36 inch range you can pretty much always be in range, and usually in half range. Then use a Comms specialist to negate the penalty for obscured. The big thing with Starcannons is the multiple damage, because Eldar really need to remove models fast to have a chance at all.

So, in Kill Team, we have a situation where Terrain actually does something; -1 to hit, -1 to Injury. As predicted, and just like 5th Ed., when terrain is actually worth having, shooty models effectively become meaningless unless they are the best shooty models, and all's anyone ever tries to do is Melee each other. Isn't that what I said would happen if you made Terrain actually matter? What a fun game.

Yes, and the other penalties to hit, plus the fact that the board size is tiny has nothing at all to do with it.

Oh, and not to mention that charging happens in the movement phase, and not the assault phase. And getting charged means you don't get a shooting phase. Then if you win initiative and fall back, you just get charged again so you still can't shoot. You can't even shoot a pistol if you get charged that turn which is all kinds of bull.

With every faction having access to Veteran so first turn charges are very common, and many missions requiring you to get close, or to get in melee, it's really not a surprise that it's a melee centric game.

[9mm]

Yes, and the other penalties to hit, plus the fact that the board size is tiny has nothing at all to do with it.

Oh, and not to mention that charging happens in the movement phase, and not the assault phase. And getting charged means you don't get a shooting phase. Then if you win initiative and fall back, you just get charged again so you still can't shoot. You can't even shoot a pistol if you get charged that turn which is all kinds of bull.

With every faction having access to Veteran so first turn charges are very common, and many missions requiring you to get close, or to get in melee, it's really not a surprise that it's a melee centric game.

Whats been funny is nearly all of my victories have been off the back of my shooting. Though I'd love the pistols to be changed to always being able to shoot if you started in combat during the initiative phase, so staggered charges doesn't constantly deny pistol shots but also prevents a shooter to double tap with overwatch/shooting on the first charge.

[Cheesegear]

Whats been funny is nearly all of my victories have been off the back of my shooting.

That's not funny. That's actually fairly normal. That's what is so effective about gunlines. Your opponent can Move or Charge. They can't do both. Which means all's you have to do is deploy a little bit back from the edge of your DZ, and Ready your entire Team. You've already won the game. Melee is hot garbage in Kill Team vs. a dedicated gunline. Then again...It's not like gunline vs. gunline is a good game, either, since neither of you will hit anything, ever, and everything comes down to who has the most shots, and who rolls the most 6s, first.

The problem, is that there are exactly two Factions that are good at Melee; Tyranids and Harlequins (and even then, not Tyranids, either). They're so good at Melee that people who don't optimise their gunline, fill their board with only LoS-blocking terrain (my stuff can't shoot anything!), and deploy badly, that simply get dominated in Melee because they're bad at games... Don't even get me started when people start firing off single-shot weapons and Mortal Wounds that deal 1 Damage and only cause a single Flesh Wound and then they complain. That's not how Kill Team works. Kill Team is a format where Krak Grenades are one of the best weapons in the game - let that sink in for a bit.

Shooting wins games. Melee counters. But shooting still wins, first.

so staggered charges doesn't constantly deny pistol shots but also prevents a shooter to double tap with overwatch/shooting on the first charge.

...I actually had to look that up. That's a real rule.
You can't shoot a Pistol if you received a Charge that turn.
This changes everything.

[Turalisj]

You've got the skitarii vanguard guns wrong, it's damage 3 on a wound roll of 6. Which changes a lot because it's rather easy to flesh wound an enemy to death, especially one with a bad save.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Going to a tournament this weekend with a probably terrible list , but the only real way to test a tournament list is at a tournament and I have another 5 booked for this year.I've been playing Tyranids too long to own any of the good models and there's no point in buying stuff to compete in a pre September FAQ meta (and I'm mostly just waiting for Genestealer Cults to get their codex).

Spoiler

Show

Army Faction: Tyranids
Total Command Points: 14
Total Army Points: 2000

Battallion Detachment, Hive Fleet Behemoth [756 points], +5 cp
HQ1: Old One Eye (200) – Warlord
[200pts]
HQ2: Tyranid Prime (100), pair of boneswords (2), rending claws (2), flesh hooks (2), adrenal glands (1)
[107pts]
TR1: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), barbed strangler (10), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[89pts]
TR2: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), barbed strangler (10), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[89pts]
TR3: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), barbed strangler (10), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[89pts]
EL1: 3 Venomthropes (90)
[90pts]
HS1: Trygon (108), toxinspike tail (1), adrenal glands (5), colossal scything talons (60), toxin sacs (8)
[182pts]
Battallion Detachment, Hive Fleet Behemoth [800 points], +5 cp
HQ1: Neurothrope (70)
[70pts]
HQ2: Neurothrope (70)
[70pts]
TR1: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), venom cannon (20), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[99pts]
TR2: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), venom cannon (20), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[99pts]
TR3: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 2x pair of boneswords (2), rending claws (2), 2x pair of spinefists (1), barbed strangler (10), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[81pts]
HS1: 3 Carnifex (201), x3 pair of monstrous scything talons (15), x3 adrenal glands (5), x3 sporecysts (10)
[291pts]
Supreme Command Detachment, Genestealer Cults [444 points], +1 cp
HQ1: Magus (73), force stave (0), autopistol (0)
[73pts]
HQ3: Abominant (80), rending claws (0), power sledgehammer (0)
[80pts]
HQ3: Primus (71), bonesword (5), needle pistol (0), toxin injector claw (0)
[75pts]
EL1: 7 Aberrants (119), 2x power pick (10), 4x power hammer (16), hypermorph tail (Aberrant hypermorph, 2), heavy improvised weapon ( Aberrant hypermorph, 10), 7x rending claws (0)
[209 points]

I've tried a similar list and did better than I should have (won a game on maelstrom points despite being almost tabled, beat orks on maelstrom points and time, did okay against Custodes bikers and Blood Angels but couldn't draw any achievable maelstrom cards). On the other hand last sunday I took a more efficient version of this list to a 1250 tournament and lost 2 games by 1 point each (I probably would have come second if the last game hadn't ended on turn 5 and in the first game I lost on time despite reducing a custodes bike army to two models). Only thing that will completely screw me over is if I have to fight Helverins on a table with no ruins.

There are at least enough non-competitive lists there that I shouldn't lose more than 3 out of 5 games but I'm not going to be in the top quarter without a lot of luck.

Last saturday I took Black Templars to another tournament and managed to come 20th out of 24 with 2 draws 1 loss so I actually kind of did better at that one than the next day with my underperforming 1250 of tyranids. This will be my 4th tournament of the month. First one was the Warhammer World GT heat 2 where I won 2 out of 5 games with my Deathguard. That was miserable as I was either almost incapable of winning thanks to match ups or incapable of losing.

[Cheesegear]

I actually recommend Starcannons. With a 36 inch range you can pretty much always be in range, and usually in half range. Then use a Comms specialist to negate the penalty for obscured. The big thing with Starcannons is the multiple damage, because Eldar really need to remove models fast to have a chance at all.

...I can't say I agree. But you do bring up a good point about pairing with a Comms Specialist.

You've got the skitarii vanguard guns wrong, it's damage 3 on a wound roll of 6.

I see. Literally the weapon under it, has Damage 2. Good looking out. I don't think I've ever seen someone play with Damage 2 Carbines, gimping themselves. It's more likely a typo, or a lapse in judgement during typing. I don't think I recall anyone playing with Damage 2 Carbines. But I do know, explicitly, that people in my meta have been double-tapping with Pistols on the turn they get Charged (especially our local Harlequin player, who spams Fusion Pistols).

Which changes a lot because it's rather easy to flesh wound an enemy to death, especially one with a bad save.

In any case, Damage 3 doesn't make it any easier to 'Flesh Wound an Enemy to death'. A multi-Damage weapon rolls as many Injury dice as Damage, and only picks the highest. Thus, a multi-Damage weapon is less likely to deal Flesh Wounds (because you pick the highest), and, even if you were to roll two 1s, and a 3, it would still only result in exactly one Flesh Wound.

[Wraith]

Guide to Kill Team - Part 3

I'm genuinely looking forward to your next instalment to see how it matches up to the 'common opinion' in my area. My resident Ork player has recommended that the best thing you can do with Orks is to just take ~30 Grots and that will ruin someone's day, though I feel like there ought to be more to it than that....

On a tangentially related, note, I wonder if GW will release an expansion for Kill Team that allows players to build more thematic lists.
What they have printed is pretty bare bones, and it's very stunted when you're trying to make something like a thematic Black Templars warband; you can kind of do it with the Deathwatch faction, if you pretend that a Power Maul/Thunder Hammer is a Crozius and a Xenophase Blade is a Black Blade, but there's a lot of gaps that could be filled quite easily.

Space Marine Chapters, Chaos Marine Legions, Ork Klans, Aeldari Craftworlds, even something for Hive Fleets.... I don't think it would take very much in terms of new rules being written (maybe even just some wargear options being changed around) and it would allow for a lot more variety.

[Cheesegear]

My resident Ork player has recommended that the best thing you can do with Orks is to just take ~30 Grots and that will ruin someone's day...

If you can roll enough 6s.

On a tangentially related, note, I wonder if GW will release an expansion for Kill Team that allows players to build more thematic lists.

It depends how well Commanders (the thing that Shadow War had for free) sells, I guess.

But I doubt it. I think when GW gets back on the 40K Train for Orks, GSC, Chapter Approved '18 and then Sisters, and then probably 'Agents of the Inquisition' and almost certainly something new for Marines given the complaints across all Marine books, and how Primaris Marines are currently barely scraping by. I just don't think GW is going to care once they get the ball rolling.

As with Shadow War, I really feel like Kill Team is simply a stop-gap because GW can't think of anything to release, that wouldn't be better released during Q4. Hence why Kill Team is just Necronmunda again.

[Blackhawk748]

I remember when i read Cheese's guide for the first time and my reaction was "Thats it?". It wasn't targetted at Cheese, but at the fact that most factions only have 3-5 units to choose from and one is their Leader (or two in some cases), and i just can't get why? With so few units to choose from every list is going to look the same simply because theres no flipping options!

Also the lack of Sub Factions is just a crime.

[9mm]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/

FAQS UP!

[Tome]

Let's see, what did Tau get?

Huh, absolutely nothing.

Welp, guess I'm still not playing any 40k.