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2018-09-13, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Mind
Sorry for the delay, but I swear we aren’t dead, and we’ve got a new showcase ready!
INTRODUCTION
With more than a decade and a half of toying around with 3.5, I’ve accumulated a lot of spare builds and ideas. While I don’t have an active game going right now, I still like to pop open my builds folder and try to refine things. Recently I decided to make a dedicated effort to flesh out some of these builds into full write-ups, and reached out to some friends in the CO community who might be interested in doing the same. In the spirit of Tempest Stormwind’s Weekly Optimization Showcase (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right?), I thought I’d showcase the end results here.
The goal is (usually) not to show off any fancy new TO trick, but to showcase effective, playable builds and spur discussion. While each of us has a different build philosophy, in general the intent is to create something that can be played in most groups from level 1 to level 20. Again, the goal is discussion, so feel free to discuss the build, talk about other options, make suggestions or tear it all to shreds. Also, feel free to use anything showcased here in any of your campaigns—and let us know how they work out if you do!
Right now the group consists of myself, Darrin, Akal Saris, Venger, WhamBamSam and The Viscount. Typically one of us writes up the build concept and possibly a stub, the others share feedback on Discord or in some of the shared documents we have, and together we refine things until we’re happy with the final product. I’ll list the build’s main author whenever I showcase a particular build.
Spoiler: Previous showcases
Real life has kept most of us busy lately in the group, so I’ve gone ahead and put forward another of mine: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Mind!
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Mind
Half elf. Full force.
BACKGROUND
So we’ve had the Buffsader, who uses war weaver on top of a martial chassis to buff out the whole party, and we’ve had the Utility Belt, a stealth-focused shaper who always has exactly the right tool for the job. But what if we need a good, old-fashioned bruiser? If the Utility Belt is our Locke Lamora, who’s going to play Jean Tannen? If the Buffsader is Hannibal, who's our Bosco Baracus?
I’ve always loved the high-damage strikes in Tome of Battle, especially those found in Diamond Mind, but in practice they can sometimes be a bit underwhelming. They’re good, don’t get me wrong… but the numbers they put out are rarely any better than what you’d get from just full attacking, and they typically limit you to a single target. They’re still a lot of fun, and you can build a decent warblade more or less out of the box that focuses on them, but I wanted something with a bit more oomph.
One idea that has often bounced around in the back of my head was to combine warblade or swordsage with war mind. Sweeping strike is a fantastic ability that allows your melee strikes to hit multiple opponents, and there are a number of ways that an initiator can take advantage of a splash of psionics. I have almost a dozen build stubs involving this combination in some capacity, from straightforward builds like Swordsage 10/War Mind 10 to more complicated options like Swordsage 5/Psychic Warrior 2/War Mind 5/Master of Nine 5/Uncanny Trickster 3. None of them are bad - psionics and initiators go together like chocolate and peanut butter, and the basic idea is solid enough to work with a variety of methods. That said, none of them really felt ideal, either.
It wasn’t until recently that I felt like I really struck gold, when as a mental experiment I decided to see if I could meet all the qualifications for war mind while also fitting in all ten levels of eternal blade. What started as just an odd thought ended up quickly becoming my favorite of the bunch, with a lot of unexpected synergy popping up. There’s also a lot of fun fluff baked right into the build: the dream-training of the eternal blade lines up nicely with the war mind fluff and the splashes of psionic power that pepper the build.
THE BASICS
- Race: Half-elf. Yes, the oft-maligned half-elf is definitely the best choice here. Eternal blade requires elf or half-elf, and half-elf has a couple of advantages over their pointier-eared cousins, namely no multiclassing penalties and no Con penalty. EDIT: Troacctid rightfully points out that dragonborn applied to an elven subrace is a fantastic option here, with better ability scores and wings. Definitely a great choice here; it works fine on top of a standard elf or half-elf, or you can apply it to fire elf or snow elf for a boost to Int or Con at the cost of Cha.
- Build Stub: Warblade 4/Fighter 1/War Mind 5/Eternal Blade 10
- Alignment: Any nonchaotic, though I am partial to the old classic of Lawful Good and my writeup assumes this. (Note that while it’s not required, we’ll get the most bang for our buck out of eternal training for Devoted Spirit maneuvers if we have a completely non-neutral alignment.)
BUILD BREAKDOWN
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Mind
As always, let’s start with the basics: right from the outset we’ve got all the elements of a solid melee presence. +20 BAB, ninth-level maneuvers and Power Attack… frankly, it’s pretty hard to go wrong when that’s our starting point. Defensively we have 20 levels of good hit dice and a Con focus, heavy armor proficiency, uncanny dodge, +17/+8/+4 saves (alongside battle clarity and moment of perfect mind/diamond defense to boost those weaker Reflex and Will saves), and a myriad of minor defensive abilities from war mind and eternal blade, plus a few nice healing maneuvers and the absolutely incredible immortal fortitude stance.
In addition to all of the standard melee goodies, we have quite a few things going for us. The eternal training mechanic gives us quite a bit of flexibility compared to a typical warblade, as we can pick and choose our top level maneuvers as the encounter dictates. Access to the Devoted Spirit discipline is another strong selling point, as it opens up access to what is arguably the best stance in the game (plus some great utility maneuvers like rallying cry and strike of righteous vitality, made even better thanks to the flexibility of eternal training). We have excellent reach (native access to expansion plus reach weapon plus dancing blade form), the ability to make melee attacks as touch attacks and some neat defensive options and debuffs. Oh, and we have multiple forms of action manipulation: synchronicity, time stands still and the incomparable island in time.
But we’re here for the damage, right? If damage dealing is our main schtick, can we stay competitive? Well, for a reasonable melee benchmark, the magic number I like to keep in the back of my head is 205. The average HP of a CR 20 is 409, and if my main goal is damage, I should be able to consistently chunk away half of a level-appropriate foe’s hit points in a single round (with “consistently” being the key word there; burst damage or melee novas are a whole separate animal). We should have no problem hitting this benchmark: even playing things conservatively (assuming a +3 weapon, a +3 bonus from Knowledge Devotion, a Strength of 30 and no other damage bonuses), diamond nightmare blade combined with full Power Attack can be expected to do 8d6+224 damage. We can make this attack as a touch attack in a single standard action, and have it hit two adjacent opponents, all without requiring any significant resources, and we can do it multiple times an encounter. Heck, we can do more than that: how about using time stands still to make two full attacks, followed by an activation of island in time to get a new turn, followed by diamond nightmare blade, followed by a move action to regain psionic focus? That’s something we can do every single encounter if we want.
Yes, these numbers are vastly eclipsed by your standard ubercharger… but they are still more than sufficient for our purposes. Charging is much easier to shut down than a standard maneuver, and consider the rest of our defensive and offensive suite of abilities: many our strongest moves only require a standard action, we can attack as a touch attack, bypass damage reduction, get huge bonuses to saving throws with diamond defense or moment of perfect mind, heal our party, avoid death from damage, manipulate turn order and action economy, debuff enemies, expand our size and reach, boost our defenses in a variety of ways… all while still putting out more than enough damage to level a pit fiend every single turn.
VARIANTS
If playing with flaws, or starting at a sufficiently late level, replacing the level of fighter with a level of crusader is a huge boon. In addition to giving a major boost to low-level survivability (not that we’re a slouch in that department, but there’s always room for improvement) and letting us take Deep Impact and Psionic Meditation three levels early, doing so also means we can hit all of our Devoted Spirit requirements in a single level, which gives us way more flexibility in terms of maneuver selection down the road. This would let us expand into Iron Heart or White Raven disciplines a bit, depending on how we want to develop the build. Similarly, if we don’t plan to reach level 20 and therefore don’t mind missing out on island in time or 9th-level maneuvers, we can sneak in an extra crusader level early, delaying entry to eternal blade by a level but providing similar benefits.
Many DMs don’t enforce favored class penalties; if this is the case, feel free to replace half-elf with whatever flavor of elf feels appropriate (although as I mentioned earlier, this build does not like Con penalties).
***
And that’s that! We have a couple of other showcase builds cooking, including a decidedly devious take on an incarnum user, a singer with a deadly voice and a chameleon that really pushes the limits of flexibility. Let us know if there’s anything you’d like to see showcased!Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2018-09-15 at 11:57 AM.
Optimization Showcase in the Playground
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Iron Chef Awards!
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IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
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IC XLV: Dead Mists
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IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
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2018-09-13, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
can't wait to see the incarnum class. I am loving incarnum more and more as I go over it for a lot of various builds but there's never enough essentia. can't wait to see it taken to 11.
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2018-09-14, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Piggy I have the outmost respect for your builds. They are optimized but always in a way that they don't break the game. You, sir, are a genius not only when it comes to the "technical" side of DnD 3.5 but also at keeping a healthy table atmosphere because it seems to me that you perfectly know what Level of optimization a table agrees on. I sincerely hope you have a playgroup that can appreciate that.
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2018-09-14, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
It's good to see I'm not the only one who enjoys combining psionics with martial initiators. There honestly should have been a prestige class for it (one of the most disappointing aspects of ToB, really).
As far as build commentary goes:
Psionic Meditation comes too late in the build for its emphasis on psionic focus. Without it, your psionic focus tricks are more or less once per encounter.
You also have Synchronicity, which somewhat obviates the need for Island in Time (an ability you're likely to never see in a campaign anyways). But that really gets at the larger problems Eternal Blade has as a class. By and large it's a class I want to like taking all 10 levels of, but it isn't as functional as it makes itself out to be. Primarily: the Blade Guide is one gigantic gaping weakness. Not because it can be destroyed, but because you can be separated from it and its movement is horrendously slow. "Having access to your blade guide" is ill defined, but there is evidence that the intent is that it means having it near you or line of effect to it. If your DM rules this way, it's an easy way to lose class features in a hurry (get it? because you're moving too fast ). Antimagic fields can also rob you of more than one "Extraordinary" class feature since they make your Blade Guide go bye-bye for the duration it's in them.
Ultimately, ending Eternal Blade at 9 is just fine for most builds, and a 2 level Psychic Warrior dip is better than most people think. Of course, that would alter the course of the build entirely, and (in my opinion) make War Mind less attractive. Which subverts the intent of this build. That being said, I still think it's an important point to make that War Mind delays the pace of your highest level maneuvers significantly enough to create a sizeable power difference between this and something like Psywar 2 Warblade 9 Eternal Blade 9. Using a Dorje of Hustle (potentially in a wand chamber) works just fine, so I don't see the need for 2nd level powers as much as acquiring a psionic focus in the first place to do what you want.
Given the limited power point pool, I'm surprised you didn't snag Quicksilver Motion as a known maneuver, saving Eternal Training for more situational/utility maneuvers. Greater Insightful Strike is honestly "meh", while Diamond Nightmare Blade is "WTFBBQ" good. Eternal Training bridges the gap between the two by providing options like Ruby Nightmare Blade, and I'd rather have a maneuver like Quicksilver Motion on my core list before getting to Diamond. I'll also probably never agree with Steely Strike as a maneuver known . You're also avoiding backup defensive options like Ironheart Surge for no discernible reason. Even if the DM limits you to the conditions list in the SRD and non-instantaneous spells, it's still worth taking and goes a long way in alleviating constraints on party resources.
I'm also shocked you spent so many maneuvers known on Devoted Spirit, particularly with what you ended up with. Castigating Strike really does nothing for your build, and I've always found Bounding Assault to be far more practical in games than any straight-line charging maneuver for getting yourself into melee for the first round of combat. As much as I think Dancing Blade Form is a great stance for a War Mind build, Aura of Perfect Order really helps you navigate your maneuver selection more smoothly, in that you aren't pigeon-holed into as many less-than-ideal Devoted Spirit maneuvers. It also saves you a potential feat and psionic focus use by letting you take 11 on Concentration checks.
Immortal Fortitude is good, (really really good) but it's exploitable and towing the line required to get actual use out of it can lead to character death. In my experience it rarely prevents deaths that would be otherwise unavoidable.
Cha should be 8 on both point buys, there's just no reason to not use those 2 points in Str/Con (for the 28 pt build) or Wis/Dex/Int/Con (for the 32).
It should probably also be mentioned that "Crown of the White Ravens"-like items can be used to help meet maneuver prerequisites, as they explicitly grant you knowledge of maneuvers. Although, I reserve judgement on that basis, as it may be assumed that such a level of optimization goes beyond the scope of these builds.
Overall, I like the directional choices you made with the build, but the order of optimization could use some work in smoothing out the transitions and creating distinct tactical power options for each stage in the character's progression. Lack of Psionic Meditation until level 15 is truly this builds greatest flaw.Sorcerer advice:
Learn to play wizard.
Monk advice:
A Treatise on Monks
A new infinite CL loop:
The Meh-Gus
Don't let crafters exceed WBL, it's the rules.
How to parse Master Spellthief using the feat's text and PHB
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2018-09-14, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Thanks for the feedback, all!
I waffled a lot between aura of perfect order and dancing blade form. I love aura of perfect order on just about any build that can fit it in, and would have loved to have it here... but until island in time comes online, the build's only way of moving and still bypassing the sweeping strike restriction is synchronicity, and that just wasn't as reliable as I'd liked. For that reason I decided to prioritize getting extra reach, which would make mobility less of a concern. Of course, the downside was that it meant I needed an additional Devoted Spirit maneuver to meet the reqs for immortal fortitude, and hence I had to go with the underwhelming castigating strike. I don't think castigating strike is bad, of course - while a DC 17 Fort save isn't that impressive at that level, it's still an attack with 8d6 bonus damage and some minor burst damage to every foe within 30 feet even if everyone makes their save. Not as good as avalanche of blades perhaps, but definitely not useless either.
I didn't bother with quicksilver motion since the build already has access to hustle, and you can always use eternal training to pick it up if you feel like you're in a situation where extra mobility will be worth more than damage.
I do wish Psionic Meditation could come online earlier, but in practice it's still pretty decent. It's only really felt between levels 12 and 15 (the levels when you might want to be able to use ruby nightmare blade plus Deep Impact twice in an encounter), but it's still something you can pull off every encounter, and even outside that trick you're still a war mind/eternal blade with perfect BAB, Power Attack and several excellent maneuvers.
It's also worth noting that the version with flaws avoids all of the above issues: it gets Psionic Meditation three levels earlier, and the early level of crusader it fits in means you don't have to spend your eternal blade maneuvers known picking up Devoted Spirit pre-reqs. (The version with flaws takes two flaws to get Weapon Focus and Power Attack at level 1, replaces the level of fighter with a level of crusader, and bumps Deep Impact and Psionic Meditation three levels earlier). That level of crusader actually does wonders for opening up the build: the early game loves the extra maneuvers and getting crusader's strike and martial spirit when they're actually level, the mid-game really likes having Deep Impact and Psionic Meditation earlier and the late-game loves not being shoehorned into spending your first three eternal blade maneuvers known on Devoted Spirit just to fill pre-reqs.
EDIT: Forgot to address the war mind vs psywar question. I agree that psywar into an initiating class is great (I have quite a few builds that use that), but in this case the real draw is sweeping strike. I was specifically looking for a way to combine the high damage, single target diamond mind strikes with sweeping strike. Being able to pull off great damage numbers with Power Attack + Deep Impact + nightmare blade is great; being able to do it against two opponents at once is even better.Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2018-09-15 at 01:51 PM.
Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2018-09-14, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
I wish I had more to add, but honestly, you’ve pretty much covered just about everything. This is a fine piece of optimization work!
In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2018-09-14, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Yea, flaws make a huge difference for martial builds that are tight like this. To the point that I won't play certain builds at flaw-less tables. That being said, assuming flaws, I'd be inclined to take Psionic Meditation at 6th or 9th at the latest. It really does bring most of the build's key features home.
Yea. I've built something similar before (Warmind 5->Eternal Blade), so I thought I would share some of my experiences with it; and the gripes I encountered in the building (and playing) process. Maneuver selection (and the lack of maneuver swaps) in initiator PrCs have always been a huge pain point of mine, particularly in builds like this.
EDIT: And for the record, this is the first time I've encountered this series of yours. I'll definitely keep an eye out for it in the future. Sharing (and improving) ideas like this has always been one of my favorite things about the 3.5 tabletop community, so keep it up!Last edited by Sleven; 2018-09-14 at 04:00 PM.
Sorcerer advice:
Learn to play wizard.
Monk advice:
A Treatise on Monks
A new infinite CL loop:
The Meh-Gus
Don't let crafters exceed WBL, it's the rules.
How to parse Master Spellthief using the feat's text and PHB
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2018-09-14, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Hurray for piggy! Hurray for fun new builds! I always wanted to make a "hit everything" build, but I always forget about odd classes, like warmind and warhulk.
Speaking of, would a massive reach build with warhulk and manuevers be possible? I'll try and look into that before dnd tonight 😀
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2018-09-14, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
I like this a lot. It'll make a good LBEG. :D
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2018-09-15, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
I think you overlooked the possibility of dragonborn elf. Dragonborn adds Fighter as a favored class, thus avoiding multiclass penalties while enabling you to reap the benefits of better ability scores and wings. If you use the drow savage progression, you end up with +2 Int and no penalties; if you don't want to use the savage progression, fire elf nets you +2 Int, -2 Cha, which is still favorable. Honestly, even applying dragonborn to half-elf seems like a no-brainer: ditch the crappy half-elf abilities, get wings instead.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2018-09-15, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2018-09-15, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
If you have access to Dragon material, then you also want to use the Exoticist variant of the Fighter as well. It's a free upgrade. If you don't have access to Dragon, I'd strongly consider the Hit and Run variant to get that initiative boost.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2018-09-19, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Since it seems like discussion on this one is petering down, does anyone have strong feelings about the next showcase to go up? I see we've had one request so far for the incarnum build, a fun little build based off of a character Venger played in a campaign I ran a few years back. I don't want to give anything away, but here are some teasers for builds that can probably be showcase-ready in the next couple of weeks:
- A sinister incarnum user who pushes his soulmelds to the limit;
- An arcane singer with a voice that can quite literally stop your heart;
- The Omni-Chameleon, focused on casting... well... anything;
- A perfectly savage totemblade, showing off just how nicely incarnum plays with ToB; and
- A bard who uses her voice for battlefield control and direct damage rather than party buffing.
Alternately, is there anything else you'd like to see us focus on? Cool tricks that you've found but would like to see explored more? Build concepts that you think are worthy of a showcase? I can't promise that we'll showcase anything in particular (we've all got pretty full schedules and full-time jobs), but we all love building and toying with different concepts. Let us know what you'd like to see us do!
(And of course feel free to continue talking about the current build if you'd like...)Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2018-09-19, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
I would love to see anything using binder or shadowcaster in the future. the Ashardalon reborn one from back in the day made me fall in love with binder, and made me pick up tome of magic. shadowcaster needs love somewhere I love it flavorwise.
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2018-09-19, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
I'm rather fond of Bard builds myself, so would be interested in seeing what you've come up with.
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2018-09-19, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
I too have loved all the flavor of the classes that were presented in tome of magic, and would love to see builds that can actually function from it. I think I have seen only one truespeaker build that didn't reply on cheese to work well. And I don't think I have seen anyone touch shadow caster.
Although you mentioned bard and chameleon builds, and I do like both of those as well.
To many choices.
Maybe I'll see what I can do with shadow caster in my off time.Last edited by Menzath; 2018-09-19 at 10:00 AM.
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2018-09-19, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Very reminiscent of the Inevitable Nightmare, a warforged warblade 18/psywar 2 from the original Optimization Showcase. I like the addition of War Mind, but I think it's a good idea to drop the fighter level for psywar at 4, in order to get Psionic Meditation at that level and save a feat on Hidden Talent. I like Eternal Blade rather less than having my primary feature delayed until level 15.
In an entirely different direction, there might be some useful synergy between War Mind and Bloodstorm Blade.Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2018-09-19 at 10:19 AM.
Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2018-09-20, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Wow. Well done PiggyKnowles. This build is incredibly elegant on top of super powerful. Hat's off!
The one suggestion that came to mind upon reading this was that pair of psionic feats from ToB, Instant Clarity that allows you to regain your foucs as a swift action after initiating a strike (but only 3/day) and Psychic Renewal to regain an expanded maneuver as a swift action at the cost of your focus and a number of PP equal to the maneuver level. But you don't have the power points to use the latter, while you could definitely enjoy the former but Hustle+Psionic Meditation is superior
I'd be very intrigued to see the Incarnum build as well! :)VC XV, The horsemen are drawing nearer: The Alien and the Omen (part 1 and part 2).
VC XVI, Burn baby burn:Nero
VC XVIII, This is Heresy! Torquemada
VC XX, Elder Evil: Henry Bowyer
And a repository of deliciously absurd sentences produced by maddened optimisers in my extended signature
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2018-09-20, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Losing even 1 point of BAB (such as from PsyWar) prevents you from finishing Eternal Blade pre-Epic, though.
I mean, sure, we can talk about how relevant level 20 really is, but I don’t think we can really deny that EB has a very cool capstone, and the build does look nicer with all 10 levels in it.In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2018-09-20, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
EB 10 is probably its best level, but I don't like the class otherwise, exactly because of this sort of thing. The original Inevitable Nightmare was a straight warblade with Stormguard Warrior, which is something I'd much prefer to Eternal Blade, especially if you're optimizing reach: it's only a small jump to optimizing Trip (warblades get INT to trip!) and getting that Diamond Nightmare Blade with extra damage. Note that Sweeping Strike works on AoOs.
Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2018-09-20, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
I'd very much like to see an Incarnum focused showcase. Especially Incarnate focused, just because it's been a big challenge to me to find an Incarnate focused build that holds it's own at the handbook level of optimization. I'd really like to see one that ideally doesn't need sapphire hierarch or other spellcasting or similar.
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2018-09-21, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
While I can't argue that the pre-reqs for Eternal Blade are a bear, I think that you are seriously underrating eternal training. Island in time is probably one of the best capstones to a martial class in all of 3.5 and I was glad to fit it in, but eternal training is the real draw to the class. The ability to pull maneuvers on demand as the encounter dictates is huge. Sure, they're limited to two disciplines—but if you had to limit yourself to two disciplines for an ability like that, you could do a heck of a lot worse than Diamond Mind and Devoted Spirit. Those two disciplines provide high-damage tactical nukes, free movement, healing, save boosters, debuffs, party support... basically everything you'll need. You can focus your limited maneuvers known on meeeting pre-reqs or on workhorse maneuvers that you know you'll want every encounter, because you can select the perfect maneuver for a particular encounter on demand. Eternal training also means that you don't have to wait for a new maneuver known to have access to your highest level maneuvers, which is something that a lot of multiclass initiators struggle with.
Anyhow, it seems like we've got a lot of requests for incarnate, so we'll go with that one. Venger is tightening up the build as we speak, and then we'll start on the write-up.Optimization Showcase in the Playground
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2018-09-21, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Having looked at the build some more, I have additional comments/improvements/options for builds of this general type.
- Your blade guide can't make Knowledge Devotion checks for you, only use Aid Another.
- Synchronicity lets you bypass the movement restriction on Sweeping Strike. Even better, it can be Linked or Twinned, which costs you your focus, but might help you get the actions where you need them. A basic approach would be to have Linked Power and manifest hustle Link synchronicity (4 pp), getting you a floating readied action after your next turn, at the cost of a swift this turn. It's a lot of planning ahead, but it's worth doing (it makes for a nice pre-battle buff, too).
More elaborate invocations along the lines of Twin hustle Link synchronicity require a lot of extra feats due to focus concerns (at least three, maybe four or five, depending on Metapower use), and are somewhat cheesy, but they would go very well with a build that cares a lot about not moving "since the end of your last turn".
N.B. Stormguard Warrior is much more restrictive, and only grants a bonus "on your next turn", which may not cover synchronicity actions. I like the feat, but it's harder to use. - Hidden Talent, Knowledge Devotion, Weapon Focus, the fighter level, and two Devoted Spirit picks can be replaced with psywar 1/cloistered cleric 1/crusader 1. That clears a lot of space to add more tricks, and I think it's worth giving up Island in Time for. Delaying EB also lets you pick up Immortal Fortitude (or Stance of Alacrity, my personal favourite) with levels, potentially saving another feat.
- Dropping the fighter level for a crusader level, you can apply Eternal Blade's three extra readied maneuvers to crusader, and get Diamond Nightmare Blade refreshing every turn. Idiot crusaders are a bit (okay, very) cheesy, but they're also very powerful.
- If you're dipping those three classes, you suddenly qualify for Ruby Knight Vindicator (and Ordained Champion--potentially two bonus feats there), two levels of which lets you recover Diamond Nightmare Blade with a Turn Undead use. Obviously no good if you're an idiot crusader, but much less cheesy. Also comes with an extra stance.
Okay, my head's about empty now. I'm looking forward to your take on Incarnum. See you next time!Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2018-09-23, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Great post! As always, you've managed to keep it at a solid level of practical optimization and showed of some unique interactions that aren't normally played around with. Dimension Slip might be another power to consider to replace Call Item, given how you can shuffle actions and turns around with such ease. Looking forward to the Incarnum user!
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2018-12-30, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
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2019-01-08, 05:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
I would like to see battlefield control bard. I realy hope this showcase is not dead. I check almost daily
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2020-12-12, 02:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
First of all, an eternal blade can't be a half-elf. It specifically says "elf" in the prerequisites, not "elf or half-elf." Second, there's no reason to take a level of fighter in this build, unless you're adding it in there just to grab proficiency with heavy armor, and/or tower shields, and/or ranged weapons. The warblade gets a bonus fighter feat at level 5 anyway, so you can take power attack with that. In fact, this way the elf won't even suffer a multiclassing penalty.
Murphy said 'whatever can go wrong, will go wrong'.
I say Murphy was an incurable optimist.
In my experience, even things that can't go wrong... often do.
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2020-12-12, 03:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
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2020-12-12, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Min
I apologize for making the mistake in regard to the bonus feat. It's been a long time since I played 3.5, and I've never played a warblade long enough for it to sink in that it's a different list of feats.
That said, from the PHB, emphasis mine:
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf. Half-elves, for example, are just as vulnerable to special effects that affect elves as their elf ancestors are, and they can use magic items that are only usable by elves.
Essentially, this racial trait makes half-elves count as elves for magic-related purposes (spells/SLAs, supernatural abilities, magic items, etc.). I have a long-winded explanation for why this is done this way, but I'd rather not get into it here. Ultimately, while half-elves are often included in the same breath as elves for various purposes, that's not always the case. In fact, there are PrCs like the arcane archer and the bladesinger which specifically make mention of including half-elves. The eternal blade is not one of these. It says you have to be an elf, and while initiator classes are debatably magical in nature, just relying on elven blood doesn't get you the whole way there. Consult your DM, of course, but as far as I understand the rules of 3.5, that's how it stands.
If you feel this is in error, please point me to what page of which book says that half-elves always count as full-blooded elves for all purposes, and I'll concede the point.Last edited by Skyrender; 2020-12-12 at 04:41 AM.
Murphy said 'whatever can go wrong, will go wrong'.
I say Murphy was an incurable optimist.
In my experience, even things that can't go wrong... often do.
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2020-12-12, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013