Alien Ergonomics

[Aotrs Commander]

Short version (grossly over-simplified and strictly inaccurate): How does a quad-leg-spider-centaur-thingy sit down?



Obliagatory Bleakbane Expositionary Spiel:

I am working on the biomechanics of the elenthnar, and distant-galactic alien race. The elenthnar's principle conceit is that they Like Humans, But Not Humans. I.e., all that stuff that humans gets, the being "special, with unlimited potential" (sic), being super-factionalised, not having super-powers and yet being super-successful, being the Protagonist Species etc, etc? The elenthnar get, and they've been in space longer. (There's probably some Temporal King somewhere that has decided that elenthnar are his/his/his/his/his/his/his/his/his/his/his/his/his/his/her favourite and spends a disporopotionate time in late-industrial/early information age of one small faction and whose species looks coindicently elenthnar...)

It is something we don't see nearly enough of around, and I have been working to correct.

So we have a race which mentally, is as fracked-up and diverse as humans, but is not just another completely-humanoid-with-face-lumps. This proved to be a more challenging thing to deal with, since on the one hand, can't be copy-paste human too much, and in the other, can't be radically different, since similar issues. (Sexual dimorphism, for example, is required to have the same sort of society and humans get. But I did not want to simply slap boobs on the females, for instance (I have used mammalian analogues a couple of times already. It took a lot of consideration, but my final solution to not giving females boobs was to Give Everyone Boobs (except they're actually not).)

Anyway, the net output is that the most major differential in the elenthnar, then, is that they have a "humanoid" torso, but spider-like quadruped legs - they come from arboreal preadator stock, rather than cursorial hunter stock. So, they have hearing which is several leagues ahead of humans, but a crap sense of smell. They climb much more easily, but don't have anything like the long-distance stamina than humans have. (In D&D terms, they probably get a Dex bonus and a Con penalty (on top of a human skills-and-feat deal¹), though that would be a gross over-simplification.)

After pumping out four starfleets, I am now looking at the first ground force. And it is now at the point where I need to start having a think about the most mundane things, because it informs how their vehicles will be made.

First off, then, let's open with the current nominal CAD model of an elenthnar I have done - a Phystuylon² Lazer Trooper.

Spoiler

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(Some provisos -this is a model for 144th scale (so 10-12mm) and thus subject to all the restrictions (like wall - limb in this case thickness) thereof - the feet in particular are oversized a bit because they have to be (and yes, those are the same feet as I use for humans. Actually, everything is the same as humans, except I bulked the chest region out some more and changed the leg proportions a bit...)

Optional:

Spoiler: Elenthnar in more detail

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The elenthnar homeworld, Urrot, is in the Zon system. Zon itself is an F9V star. Urrot is the third planet in the system and its closest neighbour, Kalaor, is also within the habitable zone. Urrot is part of a double planet system with its partner Haron. Urrot is slightly less dense than typical HPE planets for its slightly larger size, having only 0.937G. Haron is smaller, but denser, having 0.72G. Urrot is an HPE-B world³ and Haron has an HPE-B atmosphere, though it is too small to technically be a true HPE-B.

Urrot and Haron are unusually close, with only a hundred and twenty-four thousand kilometres between them. Both planets are tide-locked to each other and have been for most of their existence due to the high tidal forces. This has resulted in a comparatively long day/night cycle (compared to typical HPE-B worlds) of 104 hours as they rotate about their barycentre. (Year length is approximate 1.26 standard years at the barycentre’s orbital radius of 1.2 AU.) Haron appears very large in the Urrot sky, with an angular diameter of 252.977’ and eclipses are relatively frequent. Both planets are warm and highly aqueous, which stabilises the temperature extremes causes by the long day/night.

As the day/night cycle is longer than most higher creatures could be continuously active, and with the frequent and longer-lasting eclipses, the creatures of Urrot and Haron have to deal with having to operate in both day and night-time conditions. Bioluminescence is a common feature of many species of flora and fauna.

Urrot’s tectonics created a single supercontinent its recent history, which is only now starting to break apart. As such, it is categorised by continental landmasses on the hemisphere facing Haron, separated by many shallow, warm seas, and the global ocean Rolot covering the “outer” hemisphere. With little seasonal variation due to no axial tilt, the climate of both planets is stable aside from the day/night shift.

Both planets have a wide variety of plant life, and the day/night cycle temperature shifts ensure considerable precipitation. Urrot has giant forests covering much of the surface of the continents. Haron has forests of its own too, though these are more akin to fungal growths which reach up to exceptional heights in the low gravity.



Elenthnars developed from a phylum of endothermic, hexapedal vertebrate climbers, among the swampy forests. As they evolved to an upright stance, their fore-limbs migrated to become arms and they developed an upright stance.

An elenthnar stands about two metres tall. They have four legs, placed at four “corners” of the lower body and structurally similar to a spider’s or insect’s, with a wide span. The legs end with six vestigial toes on the feet. They have two arms, with a five fingered hand and one opposable thumb.

The head is characterised with a foreshortened muzzle, beneath which is a wide, strong maw. There are two small nostrils in the muzzle. While elenthnars have a sense of smell, it is somewhat basic and they rely more on their eyes and ears. They possess two large eyes, which function well in both very bright and very little light, due to a complex series of iris muscles and lenses. They also can see further into the IR and UV spectrum than most baseline HPE races. Eye colour is typically a shade of brown, but may also appear in shades of green, red, orange, pink, grey or blue.

The head has four ears. Two, placed atop the head, are conical and are similar to mammalian ears in form and function. They are fringed with small hairs, the length and thickness with various by individual - and style, since these are sometimes dyed, cut or otherwise adorned. A smaller pair of ears are not as visibly external, but located on the sides of the head, towards the rear. Elenthnar hearing is both more acute and more robust than most humanoid species. In concert with their voices, with effort and training, elenthnars can even use a form of echo-location, though the individuals with these skills are uncommon. Unlike many species with sensitive hearing, elenthnar ears have a high pain and damage threshold and they can tolerate much louder sounds than a most humanoids without discomfort (almost three times the human threshold).

Elenthnars are covered with a thickened skin, but otherwise lack body hair. Their skin is typically a dark-to-tan brown, depending on racial stock. Varying by ethnicity, elenthnars have spots, stippling or striping patterns of muted green. Plain individuals are rare, but not unheard of, though this can be linked to deleterious conditions, including albinism. The elenthnars wear a wide variety of clothing styles, varying by culture and personal preference.

Elenthnars display moderate sexual dimorphism. Males and females are not disparate in size, but have different secondary sexual characteristics.

Elenthnars have voices with exceptional range and versatility, and are capable of complex mimicry of even non-organic sounds. (For example, many sound-effects throughout their entertainment history are made by talented elenthnars, rather than more conventional foley technology.) Males possess a pair of throat-sacs which can be employed to further amplify their voices to almost deafening (to non-elenthnar) volumes or, with practise and skill, even greater control.

Male voices are notably deeper in register, and the variance between the voices of genders is wider than in most humanoids. Elenthnars whose natural voices that could be mistaken for either gender only occur as the products of deleterious medical conditions – though with their vocal range, it is possible for one gender to deliberately mimic the other relatively easily. (It has been known for highly talented Elenthnars to be able to voice an entire cast of characters and provide all the sound effects for animated entertainment, most celebratedly, the classical early-electronic era animation Huuri and the Magical Land of Nalapo, which spawned a franchise and race-wide cultural legacy that has lasted until the current time.)

To the ear of humanoid races, elenthnar voices have an unusual and distinctive cadence, but are considered rather melodious and appealing. Elenthnar culture holds music in high regard, and the line between instrumental and vocal music is considerably more blurred. The elenthnar’s taxonomic family typically conducts courtship through the use of male song (like terrestrial frogs, whales or some birds) and even in modern elenthnar society, a good voice and musical talent is considered highly attractive.

Like many of Urrot’s creatures, elenthnars are capable of bioluminescence. The primary usage in the elenthnar’s family is for sexual display. Both males and females have two organs which create a bioluminescent pattern on their upper chest areas (the organ is called a nacr⁴ in Zoxyriat), which (in the case of the elenthnars specifically) fluoresces during arousal. The female organs (nacri⁵ when being specifically referred to) are larger and more elaborate. These organs are part of the defining features of the elenthnars and their closest relative’s official taxonomic classification (as can be seen in their biological species name, elen'deth'nacri).

The exact pattern and colours (blue or green luminescence) varies between racial stock and individual and each pattern is unique. However, these areas also erogenous zones and are and have been considered indecent for public exposure (in both males and females) in most elenthnar cultures throughout history (along with the genitals). Elenthnars can control these displays with practise, though as, it is not a commonly advertised skill outside of the erotic industries.

The male elenthnar’s throat sacs are also capable of luminescing, though only with a green colour; However, the males can consciously control the level of the glow (though not completely, especially in immature or inexperienced males).

Elenthnars have a single orifice for excretion (both liquid and faeces), located between the rear pairs of legs. Genitals (mammal-analogous organs) are located between the front pairs of legs.

A fertilised zygote is attached to the womb for a period of about three standard months. It is then expelled into a birth canal, which opens vertically into a pouch on the female’s front lower abdomen. (This is the defining feature of the elenthnar’s infraclass.) Despite the small size of the foetus, this requires significant effort on the part of the mother. The foetus then latches on to a nipple in the pouch and becomes attached to it. The pouch seals via muscular contraction and a thin layer of vascular lining develops across it. In another five standard months, the foetus has developed into a baby. The pouch lining breaks and the baby can leave the pouch, though it will continue to be pouch-fed for another five or so standard months. (The baby can be fed by bottle as soon as it can leave the pouch, so not all elenthnar females choose to pouch-feed.)

In modern times, Elenthnars tend to remove their young from the pouch as soon as they are able (since that that point, the baby’s excretory system is no longer directly connected to the mother’s) as it is not considered hygienic for longer periods. Historically, less elenthnar females died in actual childbirth than humanoids, but deaths from later infection at the latter stages brought the overall pregnancy mortality rate to about the same.

Culturally, elenthnars record two “birth dates” a primary (the time the birth-pouch opens) and a secondary (the time when the foetus is expelled into the birth-pouch).

³Essentially "terrestrial habitibility;" HPE-B actually stand for Harbinger Probability Engineered - Borderline (i.e. a possible HPE candidate or one that has coincidentally got similar conditions to HPE-standard), but that whole mess is another kettle of fish alogether...

⁴Nacro or nacrs in the plural (in Zoxyriat and English respectively; -o in Zoxyriat serves the same funstion as -s in English)

⁵Nacrio or nacris in the plural

Okay. So. This is the point I'm at. We have the elenthar. I know, approximately, who to pose them for walking, having done simialr studies on the more -spiderlike Yrgynela (similar spider-like quad leg step up - yes, I just love how that looks, stop judging me!) I may even have done a thread a long while ago about their furnature. But the same doesn't apply to the elenthar, since they have an upright stance and, y'know, arms. Which makes a huge difference in how they work.

So I need to work out, basically - how they sit down.

How they sit on a motorbike. (Very relevant.) How they sit on a chair. How they sit in a cockpit. How, even, does one wheel around old Granny Elenthnar who can't walk/climb by herself anymore when she gets taken out for dinner. How they lie down, both to sleep and to be able to drop prone and/or commando crawl.

With four legs, how do they brace? Do they need to kneel? Can they even kneel?



Supposition One: With two extra legs and only whatever-percentage-extra-mass that is, elenthnar might be more comfortable standing up for longer period than humans, due to weight distribution. (Conversely, their stance might make it more uncomfortable.) This does not particulalr help the current line of inquiry, but is something to consider.

Supposition Two: Elenthar archetecture will have to be broadly, large than humans, because they need more space for their legs. It is also probably more vertical, since some level of climbing is as natural as walking to elenthnar. Streets may have a load of poles or something on the higher stories, along which an elenthnar can climb - or may be, atimes, vertical up the sides of a giant tree or structure or something. (Suggests that maybe footware would be more segmented, not flat, so it could bend like a human foot doesn't and thus be better from not-quite gripping?)

Supposition Three: Elenthnar still need to be able to sit or lie down, for the aforementioned reasons.

Supposition Four: Elenthar leg joints are such that they can be held at almost 90º (instead of 45º) either/and/or fowards or sideways.



Elenthnar Chair V1.0: Take human chair. turn it around and sit in backwards, like a teacher/professor/lecturer trying to be cool or whatever. Now imagine you sitting backwards and forwards on a human chair at the same time. I imagine you would extend length of seat by, say, 30-50%, keeping the same width - your bum is basically twice as deep. You would also probably have a narrow back that flares into a wider back (like those chairs that have a single pole the backrest is mounted on).

But what about beds, settee/sofa/couch? Elenthnar are going to want to recline as much as a human? Would a bed be sort of, rather than a flat slab with a pillow, have a dip at the foot end to accomodate the legs? Or do they have to stretch thier legs really far out and thus require beds twice the length of humans? Or are they comfortable just sort of heaped up?



I would welcome any suggestions, thoughts, comments.





(On top of that, if anyone has any other suggestions on the helmet or otherwise, I'm open. It was suggested by Pi Pie on ponythread that, while a drastic improvement of the first pass, they are still too prominently cartoonish. Having printed one, I am also reminded that my home printer tends to blob the very top tip if you aren't careful and am thus considering seeing if I can (aesthetically) bury those in a horizonal disc.)



¹Elenthnar!D&D meanwhile, would be giving humans a Con bonus and Dex penalty and elenthnar skills-and-feat deal...

²The Phystyulons (which translates to roughly, "brother/sisterhood of Physt" (the word in Zoiloiat is a gender-neutral plural)) are not too far of "Alien Nod in space."

[factotum]

Well, the question "how do they sit down" in the first place might have the answer "They don't need to". I believe there are Earthly quadrupeds who even sleep standing up. If your alien critters are of that type then they would naturally tend to want to stand in any environment, even in a car or motorcycle--I'm now imagining a motorcycle with four foot-pads attached to the sides which the creature stands on in order to ride it!

To crawl under something is a bit more problematic--I confess I can't think of an elegant way such a creature could do that.

[Brother Oni]

Short version (grossly over-simplified and strictly inaccurate): How does a quad-leg-spider-centaur-thingy sit down?

Big stool with an attached brace similar to a leg raise machine to support the torso.

More complicated answer is dependent on the range of movement they have on their 'knees' and how much padding on their 'base'. Human knees are capable of ~130 degrees range of movement (ROM):

Spoiler: Knee ROM

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With enough ROM, they can basically plant their centre of mass on the ground and rest their legs either flexed or flat, much like a resting lizard or crocodilian.

Spoiler: Resting lizard

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Note that the body is on the ground, but the legs are still 'engaged', ready for rapid movement.

Spoiler: Resting crocodile

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Unlike the lizard, this guy is fully splayed out.

Given the physiology of your critters, this method requires a fair amount of padding on the 'base', the degree of which is dependent on body weight and torso height (surprisingly, racial averages and ranges aren't listed in your description unless I've missed it).

On to more specific questions:

So I need to work out, basically - how they sit down.

How they sit on a motorbike. (Very relevant.) How they sit on a chair. How they sit in a cockpit. How, even, does one wheel around old Granny Elenthnar who can't walk/climb by herself anymore when she gets taken out for dinner. How they lie down, both to sleep and to be able to drop prone and/or commando crawl.

Motocycle - I'd envision something larger than a human sized bike, probably closer to a quad bike or a trike.
Modified cockpit that has 4 slots for the legs and a jutting out section for the torso. I'm envisioning them having to slide their back legs in first as the torso would require additional support for potential g-forces encountered.

The last questions depend on the ROM of their torso relative to their base. For sleeping/resting, maybe lots of big fluffy cushions or a padded hammock intended to suspend their torso only while they rest on the ground?

With four legs, how do they brace? Do they need to kneel? Can they even kneel?

Bracing is possible, but difficult. It depends on the ROM of their 'hips' and how well they can angle their legs against the direction of force. I'd envision them leaning straight forward, such that it's basically a straight line from their head down to their back feet.

Supposition One: With two extra legs and only whatever-percentage-extra-mass that is, elenthnar might be more comfortable standing up for longer period than humans, due to weight distribution. (Conversely, their stance might make it more uncomfortable.) This does not particulalr help the current line of inquiry, but is something to consider.

Your second supposition is correct - weight is not transmitted in a straight line down, so standing for extended periods is tiring. Compare how lizard legs are jointed (coming out to the side of the body) compared to dogs (legs straight underneath).

[Tvtyrant]

I would probably embrace the lizard aspect of their knees, they simply lower their torso onto the ground/couch and fold their knees in to their sides. When riding a vehicle they instead straddle the device and have their legs go into four holes.

[Aotrs Commander]

More complicated answer is dependent on the range of movement they have on their 'knees' and how much padding on their 'base'. Human knees are capable of ~130 degrees range of movement (ROM):

Spoiler: Knee ROM

Show

With enough ROM, they can basically plant their centre of mass on the ground and rest their legs either flexed or flat, much like a resting lizard or crocodilian.

Spoiler: Resting lizard

Show

Note that the body is on the ground, but the legs are still 'engaged', ready for rapid movement.

Spoiler: Resting crocodile

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Unlike the lizard, this guy is fully splayed out.

Guh, of course, so obvious! And just goes to show, sometimes, you need the obvious pointed out to you...!

Range of motion isn't something I have though too hard about (since trying to pose infantry makes my eyesockets bleed at the best of times), so I think we can assign "arbitarily enough" for these purposes. Looking at spider range of movement (not being great in terms of lateral movement), we can assume that that elenthnar hips are the same, if not, maybe more flexible than humans in that regard, with maybe closer to a 80/90º of movement (45º either side of the "resting position."

(As much as anything so I dont go funny trying to pose them...)

Given the physiology of your critters, this method requires a fair amount of padding on the 'base', the degree of which is dependent on body weight and torso height (surprisingly, racial averages and ranges aren't listed in your description unless I've missed it).

'Cos I didn't consider those? Specifcally, I was working from "about human sized", so torso height should be broadly human; weight will be more than a human, but I don't know how much a human leg weighs to be able to roughly extrapolate how much more an elenthnar weighs than a human.

So you're saying the fat arses...?

Seriously, though, I assume that some level of padding would be involved (as I say, like, but not like, humans and part of that is sexuality will be similarly prominent). I mean, I'm sort of assuming "not that much more, if any, than human" here is what we're talking about.

Motocycle - I'd envision something larger than a human sized bike, probably closer to a quad bike or a trike.

I would probably embrace the lizard aspect of their knees, they simply lower their torso onto the ground/couch and fold their knees in to their sides. When riding a vehicle they instead straddle the device and have their legs go into four holes.

So, maybe just much something like "similar to humans, except with legs held both ways, then?

The last questions depend on the ROM of their torso relative to their base. For sleeping/resting, maybe lots of big fluffy cushions or a padded hammock intended to suspend their torso only while they rest on the ground?

I guess, if we are saying they can fold their legs up (like we would sit, drawing up our knees) and they have enough slide to side movement, maybe some would do that, maybe some would have their legs spread either side? (There would be more than one way to do it, like there is with humans...)

Come to that, the physical act of mating itself would probably require them to spread their legs pretty wide, so they didn't get in the way of each other, unless we are talking about whale-like genital proportions (and i wasn't!)

Your second supposition is correct - weight is not transmitted in a straight line down, so standing for extended periods is tiring. Compare how lizard legs are jointed (coming out to the side of the body) compared to dogs (legs straight underneath).

Noted. That also sort of ties in with their lack of stamina - but also means that figuring out how they sit is even more important!

Well, the question "how do they sit down" in the first place might have the answer "They don't need to". I believe there are Earthly quadrupeds who even sleep standing up. If your alien critters are of that type then they would naturally tend to want to stand in any environment, even in a car or motorcycle--I'm now imagining a motorcycle with four foot-pads attached to the sides which the creature stands on in order to ride it!

As Brother Oni pointed out, they probably aren't structurally geared for that, on secpnd glance. Plus there are situations where that doesn't cut it - vehicle restraints (cockpits especially) or the old and infirm aren't going to be able to stand, even if that is true. So I can't handwave around it. (And standing up-seats would create way too big a profile. Hell, I had enough trouble designing around the telekinetic welsh-pony-sized tetracorns...!)

Bracing is possible, but difficult. It depends on the ROM of their 'hips' and how well they can angle their legs against the direction of force. I'd envision them leaning straight forward, such that it's basically a straight line from their head down to their back feet.

While I was waiting for responses, I did have a first pass at posing.

Spoiler

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For comparison, Tarrainian Federation (i.e. human) infantry squad.



Bottom-left corner one was the one I was aiming for specifically.

Provisos apply - there will be clipping, due to stuff being well-oversized for printing. (The gun is about twice the dimensions it should be, because it has to be at least a millimetre. I actually proportioned it off the AS50 anti-material rifle - Phystyulon lazer rifles are quite long-barrelled, the gun barrel should only be about 0.2 tops, with things like the muzzle being 0.3 and the body of the gun over the trigger only 0.8 - but that is obviously way too small to print at 12mm. (In fact, it had been so long since I did the first gun, I'd forgotten that I apparently did base that off a real one (I saw a second gun picture in my image folder!) and how much it had to be oversized...


Anyway, this was an attempt at a shooting pose and vague bracing, running off what I did for humans. (I essentially usually end up trying to position myself in the pose I'm doing and work out approximately howe it should look and usually manage passably.) So, leaning slightly on the front leg, rear leg extended a bit more (albiet not turned to nearly 90º as a backstop like a human, the other middle legs are sort of doing that).

Not sure it looks right, not sure it looks wrong; unlike with alking postures, you don't see many spiders bracing weapons to look at by comparison...

[Tvtyrant]

I am by no means an artist, but I imagine they would either brace by bending the front legs and stiffening the back or vice versa. This acts like a table or tripod, giving them a stable platform to shoot from without swaying.

Spoiler: I am not an artist.

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[Aotrs Commander]

I am by no means an artist, but I imagine they would either brace by bending the front legs and stiffening the back or vice versa. This acts like a table or tripod, giving them a stable platform to shoot from without swaying.

Spoiler: I am not an artist.

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That is sort of what I did - the front and back legs, anyway - front leg closer in (more vertical, like when we bend a leg), and back one streched out (like when we straighten); given their extra joints, it doesn't work quite like humans. I even started from doing it front legs/back legs; but when you stand in a shooting posture (or at least the way I stood), you're leaning on your off-hand knee, looking more or less to the side, with that leg, your line of sight and your gun more or less paralellel (and your other leg straighter as backstop, with your foot more or less at 90º to the angle of fire).

(See the TarFed infantry picture above; several of 'em are in that sort of pose.)

When I did it for the elenthnar, I realised that if you did two legs and two legs, they wouldn't be in-line with their gun or vision direction, hence why I tried the one front, one back, two middle formation.

Now, I dunno if that is right, or whether havng two balance points there makes up for them not being directly in line; that, as they say, is the question.



Thinking aout it, it occurs to me that they might "kneel" basically the same way as they sit - just spread their legs wide and essentially lower their butts to the floor. Probablly not comfortable though... On the other hand, I can imagine they can stand-up from sat down much more easily than human (since their legs are basically just plopping 'em down), so maybe "sit" and "kneel" are essentally the same function, and whe they "drop to their knees" they are more or less parking bum on turf.

Might have a go at that tomorrow, see if their legs can be put into that sort of position...

[Tvtyrant]

That is sort of what I did - the front and back legs, anyway - front leg closer in (more vertical, like when we bend a leg), and back one streched out (like when we straighten); given their extra joints, it doesn't work quite like humans. I even started from doing it front legs/back legs; but when you stand in a shooting posture (or at least the way I stood), you're leaning on your off-hand knee, looking more or less to the side, with that leg, your line of sight and your gun more or less paralellel (and your other leg straighter as backstop, with your foot more or less at 90º to the angle of fire).

(See the TarFed infantry picture above; several of 'em are in that sort of pose.)

When I did it for the elenthnar, I realised that if you did two legs and two legs, they wouldn't be in-line with their gun or vision direction, hence why I tried the one front, one back, two middle formation.

Now, I dunno if that is right, or whether havng two balance points there makes up for them not being directly in line; that, as they say, is the question.


Thinking aout it, it occurs to me that they might "kneel" basically the same way as they sit - just spread their legs wide and essentially lower their butts to the floor. Probablly not comfortable though... On the other hand, I can imagine they can stand-up from sat down much more easily than human (since their legs are basically just plopping 'em down), so maybe "sit" and "kneel" are essentally the same function, and whe they "drop to their knees" they are more or less parking bum on turf.

Might have a go at that tomorrow, see if their legs can be put into that sort of position...

That would be how lizards and crocodiles sit/lay, so it makes sense to me. If you make their spine more flexible than a humans (no need to keep up the heavy weight of the body organs) they could probably either lay forward from that position or lean back onto themselves.

So instead of looking centaurid, the arms could be lower down on the upper torso or even crab like at the base and a more serpent like upper torso and head.

Spoiler

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[Aotrs Commander]

That would be how lizards and crocodiles sit/lay, so it makes sense to me. If you make their spine more flexible than a humans (no need to keep up the heavy weight of the body organs) they could probably either lay forward from that position or lean back onto themselves.

So instead of looking centaurid, the arms could be lower down on the upper torso or even crab like at the base and a more serpent like upper torso and head.

Spoiler

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Hmm. On the one hand, any lower, and the arms would start to get in the way of the legs, given the spider-set-up (as, despite that set-up, the spider-legs are quite close to the torso)... But on the other, I like the idea of them being able to move at the waist more.

It would follow that the spine must (like a centaur), sort of turn 90º if they came from a hexapedal ancestor, when the front legs became arms. One could easily see making them more like driders, if one extended the body between the legs aft of the torso... Though that would require a complete redesign and would, perforce, make them bigger (and they should't be that much bigger than humans).

So, postulation. The spine - something I hould have though more about, but thinking of the entirely mechanical Yrgynela - has to connect to both pairs of legs. And having it kink to the front ones, and then curve back on itself seems a bit extreme. Also, the other problem with that is the females' pouch is at the front.

So... So... So how about it doesn't do that. But in fact runs down to the back end and curves inwards, to where the legs legs are attached? So, essentially, the logic would be that the (distant) ancestral elenthar order, rather - basically inverted the legs from the spine - so that what are now the front legs would once have been the rear-most pair. So you get a spine which is sort of "J" shaped? (The pouch would fit neatly be "above" that in the section, so maybe not quite "lower abdoman" and more "middle, but beneath the nacris."

Logic being, if THAT is the case, then maybe they can lean forward quite far (not back, much though), without having a sharp kink in the spine. Sort makes a kind of sense, if you think they are climbers, so flexibilty in limbs and joints (and their spines may not be terrestrail vertebrate anyway - maybe it's not quite bone, but some form of more flexible substance...?

(Probably can't do it if the female is carrying young, of course, but most humans struggle to maneouvre in that specific instance!)

Scribble-sketch

Spoiler: If you think yours was bad..

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Spine is in read, pink denotes the approximate outline of the body, and blue would be sort of where the pouch would approximately. The idea beig that that, and other buts in there would be "squishier" - intestines and stuff - whereas the major organs would be in the ribcage. So they could, indeed, bend over, in a manner in which maybe their even more distance ancestors perhaps curled into a ball like armadillos did. (So you get a progression of six-legged armadillo => six limbed monkey with two arms => poorly understood due to poor fossil record flip of legs essentially from under spine to over spine (wierder things have inexplicably happened in terrestrail evolution) => elenthnar.

[factotum]

Spine is in read, pink denotes the approximate outline of the body, and blue would be sort of where the pouch would approximately. The idea beig that that, and other buts in there would be "squishier" - intestines and stuff - whereas the major organs would be in the ribcage.

Seems to me this is following too much from human physiology. No reason why this creature shouldn't have a second bony structure protecting its lower organs, right? It would have to be separate from the rib cage which is being used for respiration, of course, because you don't really want to be squeezing and expanding your abdominal organs!

[Aotrs Commander]

Seems to me this is following too much from human physiology. No reason why this creature shouldn't have a second bony structure protecting its lower organs, right? It would have to be separate from the rib cage which is being used for respiration, of course, because you don't really want to be squeezing and expanding your abdominal organs!

If you mean around the hip region - like a cage locking the hip sections together, then sure. Probqbly even somehwat is, if you think about two sets of hip-bones back to back.

Otherwise, a torso composed of two sets of rib-cages would really rather inflexible, and that's sort of not what you want for an arboreal predator (and definitely not what I am aiming for). They aren't supposed to be tougher than humans, after all.

(There are already plenty of aliens that Have Super Powers or at least natural weapons - Vivrathk (the least "superpowered") have sharp teeth and small claws, Raarg'Ssth are deinonycus-like claws and some can spit poison, Jalyrkieons have horns, hooves, sharp teeth and telekinesis, the Lujuqujul can fly and have essentially a spring-loaded kick, Stravyvians are seven-foot tall, built very close to a brick outhouse, 'cos they are not actually made of lava but it's difficult to believe otherwise and a grip which can break stone (and they are Smarter Than You to boot) and the less said about the genetically-created killing machines that are the Grey Watchers in the Mire, the better...! And we're not even mentioning the technologicals...!) As it is, superior elenthnar hearing and agiliy has to be balances out by crap smell and low stamina...)



My other thought is that, is we are having a fairly flexible torso, that fat reserves shouldn't go there - y'know not having belly flab... So maybe elentnar default store their fat reserves on the back... So a fat elenthnar would have a pot-back, not a pot-belly. (Unlike a human, pot-anything is going to get in the way of one set of legs or another, and they already have something on the front of their chests, so...!

[Blackhawk748]

Im gonna second the lizard sitting. AS for chairs, why not just a simple stool? AS long as the top is padded it shouldn't be an issue. For sleeping, perhaps they can lock their otherwise flexible spine in an upright position?

[Brother Oni]

So you're saying the fat arses...?

Seriously, though, I assume that some level of padding would be involved (as I say, like, but not like, humans and part of that is sexuality will be similarly prominent). I mean, I'm sort of assuming "not that much more, if any, than human" here is what we're talking about.

If they're human sized, then about the same as a human is reasonable as the majority of the extra mass is in the legs, which are not significantly supported by the base when sitting. While getting into xenobiological sexual signalling is probably prohibited on this board, I'm inclined to think your critters are more into shapely legs.

So, maybe just much something like "similar to humans, except with legs held both ways, then?

With a pair of front facing leg positions like human vehicles, and a mirrored set of leg positions, just facing backwards.

I guess, if we are saying they can fold their legs up (like we would sit, drawing up our knees) and they have enough slide to side movement, maybe some would do that, maybe some would have their legs spread either side? (There would be more than one way to do it, like there is with humans...)

That's definitely an option. If it's the pose I believe you're thinking of, it's known as wariza in Japanese:

Spoiler: Wariza sitting

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Thinking aout it, it occurs to me that they might "kneel" basically the same way as they sit - just spread their legs wide and essentially lower their butts to the floor. Probablly not comfortable though... On the other hand, I can imagine they can stand-up from sat down much more easily than human (since their legs are basically just plopping 'em down), so maybe "sit" and "kneel" are essentally the same function, and whe they "drop to their knees" they are more or less parking bum on turf.

Sitting being the same as kneeling definitely sounds like the way to go. Given the size of their legs, it also makes sense for them to use their legs for support while shooting from that position, similar to these:

Spoiler: Shooting while sitting

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The second one seems very suited for your critters as they can run forwards, kneel and fire from a supported position, then scuttle off at maximum speed with barely a break.

[factotum]

Otherwise, a torso composed of two sets of rib-cages would really rather inflexible, and that's sort of not what you want for an arboreal predator (and definitely not what I am aiming for).

I'm not seeing where the four legs come in if you're looking at an arboreal predator? Earthly tree-dwellers tend to have very long arms to allow swinging through the branches. Four legs with no gripping appendages on them are just dead weight when manoeuvring in a forest canopy.

[Aotrs Commander]

If they're human sized, then about the same as a human is reasonable as the majority of the extra mass is in the legs, which are not significantly supported by the base when sitting. While getting into xenobiological sexual signalling is probably prohibited on this board, I'm inclined to think your critters are more into shapely legs.

Well, they does have them fancy bio-luminscent signalling nacrs as well, so I imagine, as with humans, there's going to be some different preferences...!

That's definitely an option. If it's the pose I believe you're thinking of, it's known as wariza in Japanese:

Spoiler: Wariza sitting

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It wasn't - I was thinking more of sitting with knees draw up to chest (I'd likewise link an image, but, despite nothing more than "sitting with knees to chest" in google, the majority of the first page of results was ladies (and the occasional gentleman) in not much clothing (not actually showing anything, but...!))

That, however, works too! (Though after a moment of trying, I'm sure the lass in that image is more flexible than me, since it wasn't hugely comfortable...!)

Sitting being the same as kneeling definitely sounds like the way to go. Given the size of their legs, it also makes sense for them to use their legs for support while shooting from that position, similar to these:

Spoiler: Shooting while sitting

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The second one seems very suited for your critters as they can run forwards, kneel and fire from a supported position, then scuttle off at maximum speed with barely a break.

Gonna have a crack at that later and see how it works.



Edit: First problem...!

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So elenthnar need big butts and I cannot lie.


Bonus: larger arse easier to print...

Edit edit:

First try try sitting/kneeling shooting:

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[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, I made a first pass at the aforementioned elenthnar bike.

Phystyulon Rocket Cycle (v 0.5)

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That looks not to terrible to me, but I'm open to input!

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'd modify it slightly. The idea of sitting down on a motorbike is typically combined with the idea that if need be, you can get off very quickly. You can stand up in the seat, you can push off and jump, etc. This is not possible with a seating arrangement where you have four limbs hugging the frame. It'd have to be more of an active-seating arrangement, with the two back feet standing on a surface closer to level with the seat, allowing the rider to stand up and push off while retaining the relatively comfortable seating. I.e., pardon the inaccuracies:

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[Aotrs Commander]

I'd modify it slightly. The idea of sitting down on a motorbike is typically combined with the idea that if need be, you can get off very quickly. You can stand up in the seat, you can push off and jump, etc. This is not possible with a seating arrangement where you have four limbs hugging the frame. It'd have to be more of an active-seating arrangement, with the two back feet standing on a surface closer to level with the seat, allowing the rider to stand up and push off while retaining the relatively comfortable seating. I.e., pardon the inaccuracies:

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Hm. That basically means one of two options (because it couldn't be easy, could it?):

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Either the lower leg/foot has to be at this angle (as really, bending the upper knee any further back is pushing credbility):



(Ignoring I haven't modifed the leg rest.)

OR



The entire rear wheel section has to move back another full millimetre to have enough spce the foot isn't occluding into the suspension.



(The third option is to say that, as climbers, that wouldn't be an issue for the elenthnar in the first place and handwave it.)

What do we reckon?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Hm. That basically means one of two options (because it couldn't be easy, could it?):
-snip-

What do we reckon?

Mm. It looks much closer to a sitting position, so definitely an improvement. Although the side view made me acutely aware of how terrible an idea it would be to take this bike off-road. :P But I guess it's good for a miniature to have solid ground contact.

I'd say the first option is better. No need to make the bike much bigger than it already is, and the slight intersect is barely noticeable.

I'd definitely experiment a bit more though, like try and bring the rear foot rests above the rear suspension joint. It would probably look less natural a fit on the bike, but it'd resemble the seated posture of the back legs more, with how they form an arch (i.e. in your other pic of "shooting while seated"). A bit like a more sprawled out spider than usual.

Visual reference:

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But if you're not prone to overthinking things and hunting for logical perfection/verisimilitude (like I am :P), just making it look less like loosely hanging legs is good. :)

[Aotrs Commander]

Mm. It looks much closer to a sitting position, so definitely an improvement. Although the side view made me acutely aware of how terrible an idea it would be to take this bike off-road. :P But I guess it's good for a miniature to have solid ground contact.

I'd say the first option is better. No need to make the bike much bigger than it already is, and the slight intersect is barely noticeable.

I'd definitely experiment a bit more though, like try and bring the rear foot rests above the rear suspension joint. It would probably look less natural a fit on the bike, but it'd resemble the seated posture of the back legs more, with how they form an arch (i.e. in your other pic of "shooting while seated"). A bit like a more sprawled out spider than usual.

Visual reference:

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But if you're not prone to overthinking things and hunting for logical perfection/verisimilitude (like I am :P), just making it look less like loosely hanging legs is good. :)

Thanks.

Will give that a look over (by which I mean "actually experiment with the CAD model") next working week (I've come to my enforced cut-off time for today and this is my last work-day), 'cos I am very much prone to over-thinking things. (I mean, are you surprised...!)



(By the by, imgur apparently blocks links from GitP for some reason these days (dunno why), so to look at the pictures, you have to copy the link via quote or edit.)

[Andor13]

I love what you're doing but I have to say, that does not look like an arboreal species to me. I'm not even sure how it can climb. I think it needs grippy feet, about like a chameleon at the very least, or else gecko style-sticky pads. The foot should definitely be significantly more dexterous than a human foot.

More, the bio-mechanics do not say climber. It's too big, and too evenly distributed in all 3 dimensions. Arboreal species tend to either have long torsos and stumpy limbs like a kinkajou or else long limbs and small torso like siamangs. Look at arboreal monkey species, they have long limbs, but the resting pose keeps everything in close to the torso. A big, sprawling body structure like that is going to do poorly in tight or 3-dimensionally complex spaces common to anything we would recognize as an arboreal environment.

Spoiler: Pics

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It's unclear from your models how the legs articulate, but they should definitely be capable of reaching/grasping over the head, hanging fully or partially in that state that might even be a resting pose, and could be used as sort of a built in suspension system for vehicle travel. (Not a bike obviously, unless you're going to go with the giant monowheel model, which might be entertaining.)

Spoiler: Monowheel

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As far as spinal articulation, with that center-torso layout (As opposed to a torso forward layout like a centaur) I would think the spine would go into a hip joint or some other kind of bone structure that forms the lower torso and limb support structure.

As far as resting, a species as big as that will have dedicated physical features for resting. Either torso pads, or a reinforced section of the limbs where they touch the ground in resting. Akin to the rough skin of your elbows or a monkeys butt callouses (technical term: Ischial callosities.)

Thinking about climbing the foot could have different structures for supported or suspended climbing. So it grips when the cg is above the foot, but has a hook structure for suspension when the cg is below the foot. As an added bonus this would make them wear elf shoes.

Spoiler: Apparently they are back.

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[Aotrs Commander]

I love what you're doing but I have to say, that does not look like an arboreal species to me. I'm not even sure how it can climb. I think it needs grippy feet, about like a chameleon at the very least, or else gecko style-sticky pads. The foot should definitely be significantly more dexterous than a human foot.

More, the bio-mechanics do not say climber. It's too big, and too evenly distributed in all 3 dimensions. Arboreal species tend to either have long torsos and stumpy limbs like a kinkajou or else long limbs and small torso like siamangs. Look at arboreal monkey species, they have long limbs, but the resting pose keeps everything in close to the torso. A big, sprawling body structure like that is going to do poorly in tight or 3-dimensionally complex spaces common to anything we would recognize as an arboreal environment.

Spoiler: Pics

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It's unclear from your models how the legs articulate, but they should definitely be capable of reaching/grasping over the head, hanging fully or partially in that state that might even be a resting pose, and could be used as sort of a built in suspension system for vehicle travel. (Not a bike obviously, unless you're going to go with the giant monowheel model, which might be entertaining.)

Spoiler: Monowheel

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As far as spinal articulation, with that center-torso layout (As opposed to a torso forward layout like a centaur) I would think the spine would go into a hip joint or some other kind of bone structure that forms the lower torso and limb support structure.

As far as resting, a species as big as that will have dedicated physical features for resting. Either torso pads, or a reinforced section of the limbs where they touch the ground in resting. Akin to the rough skin of your elbows or a monkeys butt callouses (technical term: Ischial callosities.)

Thinking about climbing the foot could have different structures for supported or suspended climbing. So it grips when the cg is above the foot, but has a hook structure for suspension when the cg is below the foot. As an added bonus this would make them wear elf shoes.

Spoiler: Apparently they are back.

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Strictly, they are supposed to be decended from arboreal stock. (That being the reason that they were hexapods, there having to be some justification for why you would not gravitate to quadruped evolutionarily.) Them being climbers still was something of an extrapolation, but it is not one I'm especially tied to. (It was, in fact, not what I had originally thought when I wrote it, but an extrapolation since I started designing this and thinking hard about the ergonomics.)

Their legs are essentially spider-legs in terms of articulation (with the exception of the foot, which is a little like human). However, as of this current design, if you look hard, you will see that the feet have three segments, and what is not very visible is that they are also much wider at the toes than the rear which was my attempt to suggest that a), they can still grasp and b), their "vestigial" (another bit I'm not attached to) toes may be more gecko-like, or at least more-ape-like.

Spoiler: walking trooper pose

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Cribbed pretty much off the work (again with Playground help!) I did on the Yrgynela:





Note the Phystyulon is a bit cheating, since the toes are still on the ground in that instance, but having the feet actually off the deck is not an option for 144th scale infantry legs only a mm or so thick. (The Ghyla-Heelene “Jeye-la heee-lee-nee” there is something on the order of to to three times the physical size - she's about five metres tall (in that pose) and about the size and probably mass of a typical tank. [Inset joke about not asking a female about her actual weight.]

Okay, if you don't see them as climbers, what biomechanically DO you see them as, on that basis? (They walk in basically the same way as spiders, but with only four legs, not eight; in terms of locomotion, though, that doesn't make a huge difference actually, from what I gathered from watching spider movement when designing the models for the even-more-not-quite-spider Yrgynela.)



The monowheel is definitely an interesting idea, though for specifically military uses, the profile is probably a little bit high. Even if that was more common as civilian vehicles.

(One other good reason to blag why the bike is a hub-steered system unlike a typical bike is because of the position of the front feet, which basically have to be fairly low (or very wide) to keep the knees the way of the arms, and without making the bike way higher than a human one, it would mean it can't go as low to the ground on a turn. Now, granted, off-road in a battle, you are highly unlikely to be able to getting to the sort of speeds o te pcitures of racing bikes I was looking at while I was trying to work out how motorbikes steer and the various solutions to thereof, but it was also a useful bit of guff to consider.)



(Speaking of, at the convention yesterday, I actually compared the "kneeling/crouching" elenthnar model I'd printed to one of my Aotrs infantry models that was kneeling - and they were the same height. so we can tick that box, I think!

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think the reason why the Elenthnar seem weird as-is, is the whole endoskeletal mix of bilateral and radial symmetry they have going on.

I, er, just about laughed myself silly trying to visualize their pelvic assembly and the sort of "harmonic convergence" of four buttocks on the underside they probably have going on. :P

If I were to imagine an arboreal hexapod that evolved into an armed quadruped, I would primarily imagine a sort of tauride. I.e. suppose the original creature had a mid-torso bone assembly that resembled a mix between a pelvis and a shoulder, ending just beyond the ribcage. Eventually evolution and social development drove the creature to adopt a semi-upright posture, shortening the distance between the pelvis and the mid-torso bones and extending the ribcage forward/upward, creating a quasi-tauride with an "upper body" with arms and a "lower body" with four legs.
The two sets of pelvic bones would eventually fuse into a quad pelvic assembly, creating a short but prominent "rump" in the back, and two pairs of legs facing predominantly sideways.

Here's some scribbles I made while thinking about this.
https://i.imgur.com/iT09Z82.png

edit: Uh.
https://i.imgur.com/ju3J2Gk.png
https://i.imgur.com/E9v0H1R.png

I get silly when I'm bored, ok? >_>

[Andor13]

Okay, if you don't see them as climbers, what biomechanically DO you see them as, on that basis? (They walk in basically the same way as spiders, but with only four legs, not eight; in terms of locomotion, though, that doesn't make a huge difference actually, from what I gathered from watching spider movement when designing the models for the even-more-not-quite-spider Yrgynela.)

That's an interesting question. What are they adapted to do? Why are they quasi-tauride?

Their gaits would be interesting. They are not suited to mammalian or reptilian gaits. They could not use a trot, canter or gallop, they couldn't use the body arching run of a lizard or crocodilian.

You know, I take that back, I think they could trot, but it would be a faster pace that in an equine, and it would be vastly more energy intensive. Probably equivalent to a run. They might also have a bounding pace. I think they might be strong leapers, and that could translate to a fast movement mode. Probably two, I don't have access to a system that could model it anymore, but I think they probably could manage a fore and aft bounding motion, and possibly also a 4 as 1 spring like a kangaroo with too many limbs.

I think they probably need to be as skinny and light as possible if you expect them to be fast.

I'm sure they have a tripod stance where 3 legs stay down for stability and one is used as a grasping limb.

They might have some weird pace, like that rolling spider, but I doubt it's used much.

They are probably lousy swimmers but maybe not.

If their legs can't articulate to grasp above their heads, then their upper limbs will have to be able to bear their weight in climbing. That might put them in the interesting position of having their arms be stronger than their legs, or at least having each upper limb being as strong as a pair of legs.

The monowheel is definitely an interesting idea, though for specifically military uses, the profile is probably a little bit high. Even if that was more common as civilian vehicles.

(One other good reason to blag why the bike is a hub-steered system unlike a typical bike is because of the position of the front feet, which basically have to be fairly low (or very wide) to keep the knees the way of the arms, and without making the bike way higher than a human one, it would mean it can't go as low to the ground on a turn. Now, granted, off-road in a battle, you are highly unlikely to be able to getting to the sort of speeds o te pcitures of racing bikes I was looking at while I was trying to work out how motorbikes steer and the various solutions to thereof, but it was also a useful bit of guff to consider.)

A motorcycle takes 4 limbs to operate, but they have 4 limbs plus arms left over. They probably would ride their bikes with each foot on a control and steer it purely through body weight movement. I expect they would only touch a steering bar for very low speed maneuvers, and only touch a saddle for long distance highway travel. Leaving their arms free to shoot while on a bike would make them deadly, assuming the terrain/weapon mix allows.

OTOH being unable to lay flat will be a significant problem for them against modern/future ranged weapons. They will need strong defensive doctrines to make up for an inability to low crawl.

[Blackhawk748]

Ya, I don't see arboreal with their body plan. What I do see is some sort of mountain predator, probably evolved from a six legged multi segmented one who eventually realized that thumbs and an upper body are really useful in very rugged terrain.

[Aotrs Commander]

Right I had not forgotten this thread, I've just had to deal with some other projects this week, before I could spend the requiste hours faffing about.

Thusingly, then:

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(With a crude human motorcycle for comparison. The rocket cycle is a LARGE bike, not a small one, it must be noted (civvy bikes are probably more sane sized) - the wheels on this thing are much bigger, obviously. If you think, you could just drop the wheel size to the human one and bring 'em in more or less under the rear legs and it'd have in size!

It is still by the by, smaller than the current Aotrs equivilent, the Scitalis, which was designed to house a power armour trooper with a full canopy.

Both are bigger than a Toyota Hilux, if about the same length...!)

Better?

If their legs can't articulate to grasp above their heads, then their upper limbs will have to be able to bear their weight in climbing. That might put them in the interesting position of having their arms be stronger than their legs, or at least having each upper limb being as strong as a pair of legs.

On examination and consideration, pretty sure they can reach above their head with their legs reasonably easily (they're plenty long enough) - though whether that's something that in practise, only elenthnar gymnasts do (like human gymnasts!) is another question...

A motorcycle takes 4 limbs to operate, but they have 4 limbs plus arms left over. They probably would ride their bikes with each foot on a control and steer it purely through body weight movement. I expect they would only touch a steering bar for very low speed maneuvers, and only touch a saddle for long distance highway travel. Leaving their arms free to shoot while on a bike would make them deadly, assuming the terrain/weapon mix allows.

I split the difference between Sean Mirrsen and this, and made those rear ones pedals, too. (They do technically just about have enough room, but of course in practise, both feet and pedal are a lot thicker because of minimum wall thicknesses than they would be really.

OTOH being unable to lay flat will be a significant problem for them against modern/future ranged weapons. They will need strong defensive doctrines to make up for an inability to low crawl.

I thought about it and decided they will have enough flexibility to be able to move their legs to almost 90º to the left and right (i.e. nearly 45º either side of their normal stance with the legs at imaginary corners), if they lay down. Alternatively they could just stretch their legs out to absolutely maximum extension (which as a fagpacket check suggests, only makes 'em about three metres long) and lie like a human (and be able to wriggle around in more or less the same way) and be almost - if not quite - as flat. And, pertinently, probably not any less flat than a human with a combat pack (since the size of the pack will be larger than the extra legs), actually.

I think the reason why the Elenthnar seem weird as-is, is the whole endoskeletal mix of bilateral and radial symmetry they have going on.

I, er, just about laughed myself silly trying to visualize their pelvic assembly and the sort of "harmonic convergence" of four buttocks on the underside they probably have going on. :P

If I were to imagine an arboreal hexapod that evolved into an armed quadruped, I would primarily imagine a sort of tauride. I.e. suppose the original creature had a mid-torso bone assembly that resembled a mix between a pelvis and a shoulder, ending just beyond the ribcage. Eventually evolution and social development drove the creature to adopt a semi-upright posture, shortening the distance between the pelvis and the mid-torso bones and extending the ribcage forward/upward, creating a quasi-tauride with an "upper body" with arms and a "lower body" with four legs.
The two sets of pelvic bones would eventually fuse into a quad pelvic assembly, creating a short but prominent "rump" in the back, and two pairs of legs facing predominantly sideways.

Here's some scribbles I made while thinking about this.
https://i.imgur.com/iT09Z82.png

edit: Uh.
https://i.imgur.com/E9v0H1R.png

I get silly when I'm bored, ok? >_>

Neat. (And, as usual, far better than I could do (or did, if you saw that one abomibation I commited on ponythread early o with the elenthnar...!) I kinda like my spider legs though. (And it would also require doing everything AGAIN...!)

[Sean Mirrsen]

It looks much better, in my opinion. The overall pose kind of looks like he's sitting on an inclined surface, which is fairly well reminiscent of how someone sitting on a motorbike normally looks.

Yeah, I got no further points to offer as regards the seating arrangement. It looks weird as hell, but no weirder than a spider sitting on a motorbike. :)

[Aotrs Commander]

It looks much better, in my opinion. The overall pose kind of looks like he's sitting on an inclined surface, which is fairly well reminiscent of how someone sitting on a motorbike normally looks.

Yeah, I got no further points to offer as regards the seating arrangement. It looks weird as hell, but no weirder than a spider sitting on a motorbike. :)

To some extent, that is sort of the point of the elenthnar - to both all to human and but clearly not human at the same time.

Okay, let's see if this assembles and prints, then! Fingers crossed...!



Edit: Well, it assembled relatively painlessly... Easier than some of the infantry, actually...

[Sean Mirrsen]

Do keep us updated on how it ends up coming together. :)

[Aotrs Commander]

Do keep us updated on how it ends up coming together. :)

Not done much else other than run the prototype out thus far, between one thing and another.

(My mate commissioned a load of tanks from printing, but he and my Dad want them with the locking turrets Dad designed. Which means another four or so files per tank. And, as my MG Moderns folder was at about 400 files, a goodly chunk of today was spent faffing about re-organising, renaming to get more or less everything on the file name scheme I have used for 90% of everything (but not quite 100%) and some screaming when I discovered than both Windows and TurboCAD have apparently been blissfully using the CAD folder on my old drive instead of the new primary for some reason (thank frack I do always start a new session with a "save as" and a new letter, since i backed from C to F on Sunday...) So all that took a lot of pratting about and I didn't even get to start tidying the dining room to clear some space if we do have to have a second printer.)

Anyhoo, here is a picture of the stuff currently on the table as stuff is sorted, with the three elenthnar printed at 144th, a 30mm one behind and a Hilux Technical for comparison, along with a standard D20 for scale.

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