Gate Spell

[kbob]

So using only the following sources, what would be your best "summon" for a gate Spell if you were fighting a random PC (either a spell slinging murder machineor super magic resistant/immune melee bringer of death, one on one to the death? Sources:

-Core Rulebooks (PHB, DMG, MM)
-Expanded Psionics Handbook
-The “Complete” Series (Arcane, Adventurer Champion, Divine, Mage, Scoundrel, Warrior)
-The “Races” Series (Destiny, Stone, Dragon, Wild)
-Player’s Handbook II
-Book of Exalted Deeds
-Book of Vile Darkness
-Dragon Magic
-The Book of Nine Swords
-Magic Item Compendium
-Spell Compendium

Thoughts?

[Mike Miller]

Do you want to kill the PC, have a decent battle, or have the PC show off how he strong he is by beating the gated creature?

[kbob]

Kill. It is a death match. PvP one off. Arena style.

[Kayblis]

What level? Gate lets you control a creature with HD up to twice your CL. If it's level 20, you could easily get CL 24(+2 from items, +2 from a swift spell) to summon a 48HD creature. More CL optimization opens up more monster possibilities.

A common end-level Gate summon is the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon - he's CR 27, has 41 HD, casts as a 19th-level Sorcerer, is Colossal and can hit pretty much anything not stacking AC on a 2. He's core, needs no templates and is 100% legal.

Edit: If you want to really focus on it, pick up Arcane Thesis(Gate) at 18 to cast it Extended and Imbued Summoning'd - that's double duration and you can apply a free buff up to 3rd level to it as a free action cast - that's free Haste or another good buff.

[kbob]

My CL is 20. ECL 20 as well but 2 of those levels come from paladin for the +14 to saves from my cha. The others, 7, Sorcerer, 7 IotSV, 4 fatespinner. Kobold with greater rite of passage and ioun stone (both give me the +2 CL). What item increases CL? We were given 750K to spend. It's all spent on stuff immunities and buffs. But perhaps I could change stuff. Or do you or someone else know of another max 40HD monster out of those sources that would be killer?

[Kayblis]

Get a Ring of Arcane Might, that's +1 to CL for 20k gold.

EDIT: There's also a spell in Spell Compendium called "Spell Enhancer". It's a 4th-level swift spell that lets you cast your next spell in the round with +2 CL and +1 DC(if it has any). That's CL 23 for your character.

[tyckspoon]

What level? Gate lets you control a creature with HD up to twice your CL. If it's level 20, you could easily get CL 24(+2 from items, +2 from a swift spell) to summon a 48HD creature. More CL optimization opens up more monster possibilities.

A common end-level Gate summon is the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon - he's CR 27, has 41 HD, casts as a 19th-level Sorcerer, is Colossal and can hit pretty much anything not stacking AC on a 2. He's core, needs no templates and is 100% legal.

Aside from a possible disagreement about whether you can Gate one due to not being a standard Outsider/non-Material Plane resident, this is probably the best you're gonna get from the available sources. Ideally you want access to the Epic Level Handbook critters or the Draconomicon, which contain Planar dragons that are indisputably valid as Gate targets, as well as a few potentially interesting other Outsiders and Elementals in the case of the Epic book.

[Lotheb]

Orange prism ioun stone gives another +1 caster level for 30,000 gp

[Buufreak]

Anything stopping you from chain gating the solar army?

[blackwindbears]

Anything stopping you from chain gating the solar army?

Doesn't work RAW, and if it did, would take 8 hours for the first solar to gate another solar.

[Jack_Simth]

Doesn't work RAW, and if it did, would take 8 hours for the first solar to gate another solar.

A Titan, on the other hand, has Gate as a 1/day spell-like at CL 20, and is an outsider with 20 hit dice.

[blackwindbears]

A Titan, on the other hand, has Gate as a 1/day spell-like at CL 20, and is an outsider with 20 hit dice.

This is the winner.

Now you get to immediately redo the whole thing with gate banned.

I suggest you just ask him to give you game 1.

[Jack_Simth]

This is the winner.

Now you get to immediately redo the whole thing with gate banned.

I suggest you just ask him to give you game 1.

That is a very high probability scenario, but not the only possible scenario. Assuming for the moment that the Gated creature acts on the same turn you gate it in (voiding this would make chain gating finite), you could still lose: Two basic routes:
1) It's possible the other person will go first and instagib you before you can act (I'm sure you'll have defenses, but there's counters for counters for counters...)
2) If you're opponent is effectively immune to Chain Lightning (be that via SR, energy immunity, Evasion + high saves + rerolling 1's + a limited amount of physical space for new Titans to appear, or any other method), then only the last Titan in the chain has a useful action after you Gate the lot of them in. If the opponent survives that, and can get past the Wall of Outsiders, and is capable of instagibbing you, then you get instagibbed if your opponent survives an attack from a single titan.

[Doctor Awkward]

My CL is 20. ECL 20 as well but 2 of those levels come from paladin for the +14 to saves from my cha. The others, 7, Sorcerer, 7 IotSV, 4 fatespinner. Kobold with greater rite of passage and ioun stone (both give me the +2 CL). What item increases CL? We were given 750K to spend. It's all spent on stuff immunities and buffs. But perhaps I could change stuff. Or do you or someone else know of another max 40HD monster out of those sources that would be killer?

Add in +1 from Death Knell, a +4 from a Karma bead from the Strand of Prayer beads, the aforementioned Ring of Arcane Might (+1), and use Limited Wish to emulate the Consumptive Field spell from Spell Compendium, which caps at +10. This will get you a total caster level to 36, which is enough to Gate in an Elder Titan.

He has 70 hit dice, over 1,000 HP, casts as a 29th level cleric with the Magic and Knowledge domains, has the Epic Spellcasting feat with access to three epic spells, the Ingore Material Components feat, and Craft Contingent Spell, as well as a bunch of nifty spell-like abilities, like as Astral Projection and Contact Other Plane.

[Jack_Simth]

Add in +1 from Death Knell, a +4 from a Karma bead from the Strand of Prayer beads, the aforementioned Ring of Arcane Might (+1), and use Limited Wish to emulate the Consumptive Field spell from Spell Compendium, which caps at +10. This will get you a total caster level to 36, which is enough to Gate in an Elder Titan.

He has 70 hit dice, over 1,000 HP, casts as a 29th level cleric with the Magic and Knowledge domains, has the Epic Spellcasting feat with access to three epic spells, the Ingore Material Components feat, and Craft Contingent Spell, as well as a bunch of nifty spell-like abilities, like as Astral Projection and Contact Other Plane.

Neither Death Knell nor Consumptive Field work for the OP's build - they're Evil spells, and the OP has a few Paladin levels (for Divine Grace).

[Doctor Awkward]

Neither Death Knell nor Consumptive Field work for the OP's build - they're Evil spells, and the OP has a few Paladin levels (for Divine Grace).

Paladins are not restricted from casting [Evil] spells. Only good-aligned clerics and druids are.

[kbob]

Which book is Elder Titan in? I may have overlooked him but I don't see him in any of the listed books.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Paladins are not restricted from casting [Evil] spells. Only good-aligned clerics and druids are.

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act." -PHB

Of course it'd depend on your DM, but I'm sure plenty would consider casting [Evil] spells to be an evil act. Especially if, y'know, they involve you using the ebbing life force of another to fuel your own power.

[Jack_Simth]

Which book is Elder Titan in? I may have overlooked him but I don't see him in any of the listed books.

That's because it is in the Epic Level Handbook. Also the SRD.

[Doctor Awkward]

Which book is Elder Titan in? I may have overlooked him but I don't see him in any of the listed books.

Epic Level Handbook, originally. The version found on the SRD is updated for v3.5.

I usually operate under the assumption that book lists are always appended with, "and the SRD" since everyone has access to it for free.

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act." -PHB

Of course it'd depend on your DM, but I'm sure plenty would consider casting [Evil] spells to be an evil act. Especially if, y'know, they involve you using the ebbing life force of another to fuel your own power.

Basically, yeah. It's up to the DM.

There is no general rule that casting an evil spell is automatically an evil act. Even the Book of Vile Darkness says that non-evil characters can occasionally get away with casting evil spells depending on the cause for it.

Is the smiting of your opponent in this duel both necessary and just?

[zlefin]

gibbering orb would be nice.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monst...bberingOrb.htm

[Jack_Simth]

There is no general rule that casting an evil spell is automatically an evil act. Even the Book of Vile Darkness says that non-evil characters can occasionally get away with casting evil spells depending on the cause for it.

"Can occasionally get away with". Not "it's not evil".

Also: Per the Book of Vile Darkness, page 77:

Tapping into evil power is an evil act in and of itself, no matter what the effects or the reason for using the power might be.

So... no, it's RAW that casting an Evil spell is an Evil act. Paladins have a code of conduct which precludes that, so... no go there.

[Doctor Awkward]

"Can occasionally get away with". Not "it's not evil".

Also: Per the Book of Vile Darkness, page 77:

So... no, it's RAW that casting an Evil spell is an Evil act. Paladins have a code of conduct which precludes that, so... no go there.

We clearly have different definitions of what "getting away with" means.

In common vernacular that means taking an action for which you don't suffer consequences. At best BoVD is contradicting itself here. Again.

[Goaty14]

Slightly Off-Topic question: What prevents somebody from gating in an elder evil, provided that they have a high enough save DC? Y'know, besides dooming the plane to utter chaos, is it that bad of an idea?

[Telonius]

Slightly Off-Topic question: What prevents somebody from gating in an elder evil, provided that they have a high enough save DC? Y'know, besides dooming the plane to utter chaos, is it that bad of an idea?

I think this clause would probably apply:

Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.

I'd think an Elder Evil counts as a unique being. If it's the sort of Elder Evil that wants to break through at the first opportunity, then it would probably go through if you asked it. But if it's not (either it's an uncaring force of nature, or has to wait until the Thousandth Eclipse, or whatever, before it can arrive) then the spell wouldn't work.

[Jack_Simth]

We clearly have different definitions of what "getting away with" means.

In common vernacular that means taking an action for which you don't suffer consequences. At best BoVD is contradicting itself here. Again.

Not really. Context, and specific overrides general.

The bit you were first looking at is pointing out that a rare evil act isn't going to affect alignment - when a LG Cleric of Pelor finds that the only way to get the location of the cult from the cultist who was collecting children for the sacrifice to bring about the destruction of the world is to slowly dig out the cultist's left eye... the LG Cleric of Pelor isn't falling if he only uses such methods to get the info the once. However: It's still an Evil act. The Paladin has a specific oath that says none of that.

[Mordaedil]

I wonder if the intent of those passages is simply that casting an evil spell is in itself an evil act, but using it for a good enough purpose could negate each other. Not that you could ignore spell descriptor entirely with no consequence.

[OgresAreCute]

Can't you spice it up with a sanctify/purify spell thing?

[Segev]

Gate in the PC you want to fight. No, seriously, use whatever temporary invulnerability shenanigans you like to protect your meat shell, and cast astral projection. Then, from the Astral Plane, cast gate to call the opponent.

Even if removing him from the battlefield doesn't count as a win by ring-out (remember, you're still in the arena, just unconscious...and you can possibly have your familiar share a magic jar to puppet your body if that's an issue), you now control him as long as your spell duration lasts, and can order him to return with you via plane shift and greater teleport and then announce his surrender.

[Doctor Awkward]

Not really. Context, and specific overrides general.

The bit you were first looking at is pointing out that a rare evil act isn't going to affect alignment - when a LG Cleric of Pelor finds that the only way to get the location of the cult from the cultist who was collecting children for the sacrifice to bring about the destruction of the world is to slowly dig out the cultist's left eye... the LG Cleric of Pelor isn't falling if he only uses such methods to get the info the once. However: It's still an Evil act. The Paladin has a specific oath that says none of that.

The bit I was first looking at was on page 8 and specifically in reference to casting [Evil] spells.

"Sometimes, a nonevil spellcaster can get away with casting
a few evil spells, as long as he or she does not do so for an
evil purpose."

So which is it? Is it always an evil act? Or is it sometimes okay?
The real answer is still ask your DM. He's going to have to rule on it either way.

At worst you can argue that you aren't actually casting Consumptive Field. You are casting Limited Wish, an entirely neutral spell that is only creating a similar effect.

Can't you spice it up with a sanctify/purify spell thing?

The Purify Spell feat only adds the [Good] descriptor to the spell. It doesn't take away the [Evil] one and by RAW the two tags do not appear to be mutually exclusive.