What does it mean for a system to be Gritty?

[halfeye]

This gets back to my pithy definition of the everyday difficulties of people undergoing hardship - struggling to just survive, day after day, is exactly that. With that said I wouldn't say that survival necessarily needs to be something to fight for to make a game gritty. Take a hypothetical game about the poor in Dickensian England, where death isn't necessarily on the table but ending up in a debtors prison for the rest of your life is, and more than that it's a real struggle to not end up in said debtors prison. That could easily be gritty, but it's not technically about survival per se.

In Dickensian England, debtor's prison was for the (ex) rich, the poor didn't have the money to get into debt.

[Knaight]

In Dickensian England, debtor's prison was for the (ex) rich, the poor didn't have the money to get into debt.

I'd contest this a bit, but the example isn't the point - a company town working on company scrip and work-debt structures can be used instead here. Point is, there are options other than death compatible with gritty games.

[Grim Portent]

A dickensian workhouse would be a pretty good alternative to death for example. Things were pretty vile.

[Nifft]

Hmm.

Gritty to me means:
- Logistics are not hand-waved.
- Details matter, and can kill your character.
- NPCs are looking out for themselves by default. Your PCs can profit from this, or be hampered by it.
- Good or Evil won't win because of inherent moral qualities. Rather, victory comes from better strategy, or better insight, or even just dumb luck.

[Segev]

This gets back to my pithy definition of the everyday difficulties of people undergoing hardship - struggling to just survive, day after day, is exactly that. With that said I wouldn't say that survival necessarily needs to be something to fight for to make a game gritty. Take a hypothetical game about the poor in Dickensian England, where death isn't necessarily on the table but ending up in a debtors prison for the rest of your life is, and more than that it's a real struggle to not end up in said debtors prison. That could easily be gritty, but it's not technically about survival per se.

"Survival" in a literal sense may be too strong a word, but "maintaining my standard of living at an acceptable level" becomes similar in importance and scope. "How will I live if I lose my hovel!?" "Where is my next meal coming from!?"

As long as you're not quite to the level of "first world problems," it's probably good enough for what I was aiming at.

Hmm.

Gritty to me means:
- Logistics are not hand-waved.
- Details matter, and can kill your character.
- NPCs are looking out for themselves by default. Your PCs can profit from this, or be hampered by it.
- Good or Evil won't win because of inherent moral qualities. Rather, victory comes from better strategy, or better insight, or even just dumb luck.

These seem like a reasonable set of criteria.

[Yora]

Just seeing the title, my first instinctive reflex was "gritty = gory".

[kyoryu]

It means something different to anyone, which is why I get kind of annoyed when people ask for a "gritty" recommendation - just by that word, I don't know enough to give them an actual recommendation.

To me, gritty means pain. It means the characters can suffer setbacks, injuries, etc. Victory does not usually come without cost. Arguably, heroes in a "gritty" setting (to me) are defined by the costs they are willing to pay to succeed.

It also generally implies more "human-level" exploits, vs. superheroic. But that's an implies, and I could certainly see a high-powered, but "gritty" game.

[Darth Ultron]

I sometimes wonder, Darth Ultron, if you're posting the way you do in order to discredit the positions you take. The mix of "GM has to be a tyrant or the game sucks because the players are worse tyrants" with sometimes-decent points seems to serve to undermine the decent points by association, discouraging examination of them.

I'm sure you are just misreading or misunderstanding my posts.

For instance, I do agree with you that there's a significant difference between "gritty" games and "bleak" worlds. But that difference is not related to whether the GM just lets the players win all the time, as suggested in your "Typical Game" examples (which are not, in my experience, typical of ANY games, even ones which are decidedly non-gritty and heavy on the high adventure and awesome action).

'Bleak' and 'Gritty' can and often be combined, but they no more go together then ''silly cartoon game'' and ''high optimization game", though you can combine those also.

Bleak is a world 'lacking vegetation and exposed to the elements.' A world like Dark Sun, or an setting like a desert or cold region. Gritty can be done anywhere, a jungle, forest or urban area. Or Bleak is 'without hope or encouragement; depressing; dreary', but again, this has nothing to do with gritty.

This is also why it's often tied to "realism."

It is often compare to the most unrealistic things around: Comics, Movies and most of all Video Game. Far and above Video Games stand as the huge bad example of unreality. Just 'push a button' and refill that health bar!

Punishing players in game for out of game behavior is pretty jerkish. You can instead simply talk to the player and resolve the behavior outside of the game. That has nothing to do with gritty realism or bleak campaign settings.

I can agree here, but I'm not sure where you saw me type anything about ''punishing behavior''. If it's my best friend or if the biggest jerk ever, my game will still be gritty for them both.

To generate "Hard Fun," the difficulty of success is increased. When probability of success is decreased, hope for success is also reduced. When hope for success is minimized, it creates a bleak and despondent atmosphere.

This is true only of the already bleak, defeatist type people. The type of person who will get all say and upset when their fictional character in a game can't do something like open a door. A more normal person can accept the Hard Fun, and let the good times roll.

Hopelessness and Grit are closely related and often one is used to enhance the presence of the other. You're right that they aren't the same, but players that expect a Gritty Game aren't expecting ONLY an increase in difficulty. It's also a shift in tone for the game's story. Since Protagonists are expected to die, you have to brace yourself for tragic loss, which is a rather hopeless prospect.

It's true ''many'' people want a mixed Gritty and Bleak game. Just as it is true ''many" people want a ''Silly" and "Optimized" game. Not everyone, just ''many".

Depicting the opposing position in a strawman doesn't much support your position. Yes, the grit of a game is enhanced by players keeping track of their resources. That alone doesn't make the game Gritty, just Grittier.

It is just one thing on my list.

Gritty isn't about having a chance to fail. It's about having a huge probability to fail with an uncertain, but exceedingly small chance for success. It's about courage in the face of insurmountable odds. The reason for adding granularity (which is what you reference about High Magic Grit) is to add yet another threat to the characters from which failure can suddenly strike.

Except now your drifting to more of a ''Uphill Battle" type game. And that is a whole other game type. And ''Uphill Battle" game can be mixed with ''Gritty", but it does not have to me. And you can very well do a ''Silly Optimized" type game that has to face "Silly insurmountable Optimized" odds, that is in no way 'bleak or gritty'(DM: 100 super orcs attack! Player:"Oh nos, I cleave through them all!" DM:"And then you see 100 super duper orcs!"

[Xuc Xac]

I'm sure you are just misreading or misunderstanding my posts.

If one person interprets your posts differently than you intended, they might have read them incorrectly. When almost everyone agrees with that interpretation, you're probably writing them incorrectly.