Spell-Less Warlock Redesign

[Grod_The_Giant]

But you do use spell attack, which is already defined in the “Spellcasting Ability” section of the Warlock.
Your right. I reading through the blast shapes to see if the lack of “creature” would cause conflict.

I did find two instances of Brimstone Blast, one in the least and one in the lesser. Unless the intent was to allow the fiend pact access to it sooner.

What "spellcasting ability section?" :p

That's a mistake-- it was generic, but I reassigned it to Fiend.

Also if I come off as being rude(negative), I’m sorry. I just really like your version of the Warlock and I want it to be the best and balanced as it can be.

Nah, you're good. Sorry if I sounded nasty in reply.

[Garfunion]

What "spellcasting ability section?" :p

You need it to define the saving throw DC that some invocations require.

Nah, you're good. Sorry if I sounded nasty in reply.

:)

[Garfunion]

Also, where is that dragon Otherworldly Patron? I’m very interested in seeing it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also, where is that dragon Otherworldly Patron? I’m very interested in seeing it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-adaptation%29

Unfortunately, when I wrote it I had the very clever idea of having a custom "dragon breath" cantrip (like the old Dragonfire Adept), which means it's going to take a bit more work to import.

[Mith]

Just skimming the Dragon Warlock, but could you just have Eldritch blast be a Verbal spell, and make the visual for a Draconic Warlock using EB as a breath weapon attack? Or do you not get the damage range you want from EB for a Dragonsbreath cantrip?

[Lille]

It's worth mentioning that while Pact of the Blade isn't inherently melee-specific, your versions of Pact Smite and Eldritch Glaive are. I get Eldritch Glaive, but is there a reason that Pact Smite is melee-only in this?

As for Dragon Patron, maybe just give the Dragon Patron a "Draconic Breath" Blast Effect, with an effect similar to the original cantrip? That might work.

[Garfunion]

I haven’t forgotten about this thread. I’m currently making some changes to your Warlock and will be posting it here.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Dragon Patron
You’ve made a pact with one of the great scaled ones, vowing to work towards your patron’s goals in exchange for a mere sliver of their arcane might.

Dragontouched: At 1st level, your skin becomes thick and scaly, granting you a base AC of 16 (your Dexterity modifier doesn't affect this number). You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield's bonus as normal. In addition, you learn to read and speak Draconic, if you did not already, and have Advantage on Charisma checks to interact with dragons and Intelligence checks to recall information about them.

Dragon Breath: At 1st level, you do not gain the Eldritch Blast ability normally granted to warlocks, and you cannot learn Blast Effect invocations. Instead, as an action you may exhale a cloud of elemental energy, producing one of the following effects:

• Acid—All creatures in a 30ft line must make a Constitution save or take 1d8 acid damage.
• Fire—All creatures in a 15ft cone must make a Dexterity save or take 1d8 fire damage.
• Frost— All creatures in a 15ft cone must make a Constitution save or take 1d8 cold damage.
• Lightning—All creatures in a 30ft line must make a Dexterity save or take 1d8 lightning damage.
• Poison--All creatures in a 5ft radius must make Constitution saves or take 1d8 poison damage.

At 5th level, the ability's range increases to 30ft (for a cone), 60ft (for a line), or 10ft (for a radius), and its damage increases to 2d8. At 11th, the range increases to a 60ft cone, 120ft line, or 20ft radius, and its damage increases to 3d8. At 17th its damage increases to 4d8.

In addition, while you cannot learn Blast Effect invocations, you can lean Breath Effect Invocations.

Roaring Breath: At 6th level, you gain the ability to drastically increase the power of your breath weapon, at the cost of temporarily burning it out. When using your Draconic Breath ability, you may choose to double the number of damage dice it deals. However, after doing so, you cannot use it again for a short time. At the start of each turn, roll 1d6. If you roll a 5 or a 6, you may resume using the cantrip as normal.

Dragonkin: At 10th level, the AC granted by your scales improves to 18, and you gain Advantage on saves against the breath weapons and frightful presence abilities of dragons.

Dragon Wings: At 14th level, you sprout a pair of leathery wings, allowing you to fly at a speed of 40ft per round.

Spoiler: New Invocations

Show

Note: All are Cruel Blessings
Least

• Draconic Knowledge: You may add half your Proficiency bonus to Intelligence checks (round up). Once per long rest, you may cast Identify without using a spell slot.
• Entangling Breath: When you use your Draconic Breath ability, you may choose to reduce the damage by half. If you do, enemies who fail their save are restrained for one round.
• Masterful Breath: When you use your Draconic Breath ability, you may exclude any number of targets within the affected area.

Lesser

• Draconic Flight: As a bonus action, you may sprout wings, allowing you to fly at a speed of 40ft/round for 1 hour. If you already had a flight speed, you may Dash as a bonus action for 1 hour instead. After you have used this ability, you cannot do so again until you have completed a long rest.
• Sleep Breath: As an action, you may exhale a cloud of soporific gas. All targets in a 30ft cone are affected as though by a Sleep spell, as though from a spell slot of one-half your Warlock level (round up). At 11th level this range increases to a 60ft cone.
• Lingering Breath: Enemies who fail their save against your Dragon Breath ability suffer an additional penalty.

• Acid—The target takes acid damage equal to half your breath weapon damage at the start of your next turn.
• Fire—The target catches aflame, taking 1d6 fire damage at the start of each of your turns until it or another creature takes an action to extinguish the flames.
• Frost— The target cannot move or take reactions for 1 round.
• Lightning— The target suffers Disadvantage on Dexterity checks and saves for 1 round.
• Poison-- Your poison breath weapon ignores poison resistance and immunity.

Greater

• Frightful Presence: When you use your Roaring Breath feature, all enemies within 60ft must make Wisdom saves or be Frightened for 1 minute. They may repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature's saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to this ability for the next 24 hours.
• Wingstorm: As a bonus action, you may briefly manifest a pair of wings-- or use your own-- to produce a tremendous gust of wind. All creatures within 10ft must make Str saves or take 2d6 bludgeoning damage and be pushed 10ft.

Dark

• Discorporating Breath of Bahamut: Once per short rest, you may exhale a bolt of pure energy. All creatures in a 120ft line must make Constitution saves. On a failure, they take 10d6+40 damage; on a success, they take half that. If this damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated, as the spell. This ability affects nonmagical objects and magical constructs as the spell does.
• Fivefold Breath of Tiamat: Once per short rest, you may use your Dragon Breath ability five times as part of a single action, once for each element. Creatures caught in one or more of the affected areas make a single Dexterity save; on a failure they take full damage from each effect that hit them, and on a success they take half.

----------------

Just skimming the Dragon Warlock, but could you just have Eldritch blast be a Verbal spell, and make the visual for a Draconic Warlock using EB as a breath weapon attack? Or do you not get the damage range you want from EB for a Dragonsbreath cantrip?

The Dragon patron was based off the old Dragonfire Adept-- a mechanically similar class, but whose schtick was "at-will AoE breath weapons," rather than the Warlock's single-target blast.

It's worth mentioning that while Pact of the Blade isn't inherently melee-specific, your versions of Pact Smite and Eldritch Glaive are. I get Eldritch Glaive, but is there a reason that Pact Smite is melee-only in this?

Oversight--I'll fix it.

I haven’t forgotten about this thread. I’m currently making some changes to your Warlock and will be posting it here.

What are you looking at changing?

[Garfunion]

What are you looking at changing?

Spoiler

Show

Otherworldly Patron
No change

Pact Magic
Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.

Some of your Warlock class features require you to make a spell attack or has your target make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The spell attack and spell saving throw DC is calculated as follows:

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

•Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells.


Mystic Arcanum
At 1st level, your patron bestows upon you a magical secret called an arcanum. You know the Eldritch Blast and Prestidigitation cantrips. You will learn additional cantrip determined by your patron choice.

Eldritch Invocations
In your study of occult lore, you have unearthed eldritch invocations, fragments of forbidden knowledge that imbue you with an abiding magical ability.

At 2nd level, you gain two eldritch invocations of your choice. Your invocation options are detailed at the end of the class description. When you gain certain warlock levels, you gain additional invocations of your choice, as shown in the Invocations Known column of the Warlock table.

Many invocations have unique restrictions, they are described below;

•Essence modify your Eldritch Blast cantrip. They do not take an action to activate, but you may only apply a single Essence to your eldritch blast cantrip at a time. Additionally if more the one Essence or class ability would have you add your charisma modifier to your Eldritch Blast cantrip as extra damage, the damage sources do not stack.
•Cruel Blessing(s) are special bits of magic that activate in times of great need. When you roll initiative, you may activate a single Cruel Blessing as a reaction. If you are surprised, you may activate one as a bonus action on your first turn instead.
•Dark invocations are very powerful. You can only learn a maximum of five of these invocations.

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the invocations you know and replace it with another invocation that you could learn at that level.

Pact Boon
At 3rd level, your otherworldly patron bestows a gift upon you for your loyal service. You gain one of the following features of your choice.

•Pact of the Chain
You do not need the materials components to cast this spell, as a ritual.

•Pact of the Blade
No change

•Pact of the Tome
No change.

Ability Score Improvement
No change

Greater Essence
Starting at 7th level, when an Essence that you apply to your eldritch blast cantrip has an effect that only targets one creature, it may now effect every creature hit by your eldritch blast cantrip.

Dire Blast
Beginning at 13th level, you may apply two Essences at once. If both would alter the damage type, treat your blast as whichever of the two types would be more advantageous.

Eldritch Master
At 20th level, you may activate two Cruel Blessing abilities simultaneously.

Otherworldly Patrons
At 1st level, you have struck a bargain with an otherworldly being of your choice. Your choice grants you special features, as described in the Player's Handbook and other sources, as well as two cantrips as shown below.

•The Archfey
Mystic Arcanum: You learn Druidcraft and Minor Illusion cantrips.
•The Celestial
Mystic Arcanum: You learn Sacred Flame and Light cantrips.
•The Fiend:
Mystic Arcanum: You learn Thaumaturgy and Control Flames cantrips.
•The Great Old One
Mystic Arcanum: You learn Thaumaturgy and Message cantrips.
•The Hexblade
Mystic Arcanum: You learn True Strike and Blade Ward cantrips.
•The Raven Queen
Mystic Arcanum: You learn Guidance and Message cantrips.
•The Undying
Mystic Arcanum: You learn Spare the Dying and Resistance cantrips.

Eldritch Invocations List
If an eldritch invocation has prerequisites, you must meet them to learn it. You can learn the invocation at the same time that you meet its prerequisites. A level prerequisite refers to your level in this class.

Agonizing Blast (essence)
Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast cantrip
When you cast eldritch blast cantrip, one target you hit takes additional damage equal to your Charisma modifier. This damage is the same type as your eldritch blast.

Armor of Shadows
You can cast Mage Armor on yourself at will, without expending material components.

Ascendant Step
Prerequisite: 5th level
You can cast the Levitate spell on yourself at will, without expending material components.

................
Cloak of Flies (Cruel Blessing)
You surround yourself with a magical aura that looks like buzzing flies. The aura extends 5 feet from you in every direction, but not through total cover, and lasts for one minute. The aura grants you advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks and you gain resistance to poison damage.
Any other creature that starts its turn in the aura takes poison damage equal to your Warlock level.

I’m still using your least to dark invocation leveling scale just using the level requirement instead.

I’m currently looking at all the printed invocations and making changes using your list as a guide. I’ll be adding any new invocations you created afterwards.

[Mith]

The Dragon patron was based off the old Dragonfire Adept-- a mechanically similar class, but whose schtick was "at-will AoE breath weapons," rather than the Warlock's single-target blast.

Fair enough. I like what you have posted. My suggestion was more Dovokiin inspired in terms of DRAGON SHOUTS!
......

Now I am picturing Brian Blessed as a Dragon Adept with additional Thunder Damage of his Breath attacks just being his normal voice.

[Nifft]

Mostly this is good. Lots of stuff I miss about 3.5e Warlock is making a come back.

50% of it is stuff I'd do differently... so I might do a variant of it.

If you don't mind, Grod?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mostly this is good. Lots of stuff I miss about 3.5e Warlock is making a come back.

50% of it is stuff I'd do differently... so I might do a variant of it.

If you don't mind, Grod?

Go for it, mate.

What kind of stuff are you thinking about changing?

[Nifft]

Go for it, mate.

What kind of stuff are you thinking about changing?

Adding a short-rest resource pool and keying some effects off it.

Bundling effects so the level 2 Disguise Self gains the ability to also Alter Self and Polymorph at higher levels.

[noob]

Adding a short-rest resource pool and keying some effects off it.

Bundling effects so the level 2 Disguise Self gains the ability to also Alter Self and Polymorph at higher levels.

The fact it have no resource limits at any point is precisely to make it less castery and more like fighters: the resource you use is hp not weird shenanigans.
if you add short rest resources you could use as well the default warlock.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The fact it have no resource limits at any point is precisely to make it less castery and more like fighters: the resource you use is hp not weird shenanigans.
if you add short rest resources you could use as well the default warlock.

You don't have to go full spellcaster. "You may use 3 greater invocations per short rest" is a solid mechanism for allowing more powerful abilities.

[Nifft]

The fact it have no resource limits at any point is precisely to make it less castery and more like fighters: the resource you use is hp not weird shenanigans.
if you add short rest resources you could use as well the default warlock.

Hell no, this is perniciously wrong.

You don't have to go full spellcaster. "You may use 3 greater invocations per short rest" is a solid mechanism for allowing more powerful abilities.

Yes, absolutely.

Specifically the short rest resource I want to use is Ki / Sorcery points, which makes Warlock more compatible with multi-classing. (But first I need to finish my Sorc re-write which uses short rest Sorcery points...)

With those points, I can say things like...

• Dark Foresight: You have advantage on initiative checks. If you are surprised, you can spend a Pact Point to not be surprised.

[Bjarkmundur]

Revisiting this after a while. Going to make some test character tomorrow, and I'm really looking forward to it. I might even ask Tawmis to help me with so e story elements ^^

It would be a nice quality of life improvement to have the Invocations from the official content written up in full, just to have all the information in one place :)


EDIT 1: I'm starting making a test characer now. First thing I changed was the wording on Brimstone Blast, to put it more in line with similar existing effects:

"If the target or a creature within 5 feet of it uses a bonus action to put out the flames, or if some other effect douses the flames (such as the target being submerged in water), the effect ends."

EDIT 2: Eldritch Smite seems weird. Is there a reason for not making it a Blasting Effect "When you use Eldritch Blast against a creature within 5 feet of you it counts as a melee weapon attack and..."

Also, It doesn't really allow for a melee warlock without going hexblade. If I want to make a melee Fiend warlock I already have +3 dex, which means medium armor gives me nothing. The invocation then only removes the disadvantage from attacking within 5 feet. Might be benefitial for dealing more damage to a single creature at level 5, but at that point I already have access to Lesser Invocation, which makes me wonder why Eldritch Smite is even available as a least invocation.
Seems like these features are pretty useless without the Hexblade patron.

Are invocations restricted by Pact or Subclass when it simply states "Blade" and not whether its "Hexblade" or "Blade Pact"?

[BerzerkerUnit]

I’m lifting Consume Luck for my own use but I don’t see that as a top tier ability if it’s limited to 1/rest or even Cha mod per rest.

Permanent eyebite and no invulnerability is probably a break. If I recall Eyebite has 2 save or suck effects that you can just continuously subject a target to. Depending on the foe it might almost always be a better choice. If they became immune to that specific curse for 24 hours it wouldn’t be a problem.

Chains of Carceri faces a similar problem by removing the limited typing of targets.

[Bjarkmundur]

Edited my post above.

Also, can I cast my Burning Hands and Command spells from my Patron, or is that feature removed?

EDIT 1: I'm really loving the way this class is set up, and I feel like it could become a five-star alternative with some clean-up and TLC. It's kinda tricky to put neatly onto a character sheet, but I think I've done alright. I had to guess how you wanted the Patron Spells to be set up, so I just made it once per short rest. The character looks much better rounded after I added those spells in, it really makes the Patrons feel like actual subclasses.

Ability Scores, Skills and Hit Points are all based on houserules, so don't worry about that bit.

[Yakk]

until you use this ability again.

Why? Just have the text accumulate. :)

[notXanathar]

I really like this, but I do see one problem: the cantrip lists for the different patrons seem wildly unbalanced. The Archfey gets some good ones, whereas the Hexblade gets ones that, in almost all cases, are strictly worse than not casting them and making a normal attack. My only conclusion can be that this was done for rebalancing purposes. Was this the case?(edited immediately after posting to put a question mark at the end, rather than a full stop.)

[skaeren]

This is, frankly, what the Warlock should have been to begin with. How would you convert the beholder patron here to be used with your Warlock?

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedAr..._the_heavenly/

[Bjarkmundur]

This is, frankly, what the Warlock should have been to begin with. How would you convert the beholder patron here to be used with your Warlock?

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedAr..._the_heavenly/

Otherworldly Patron: At 1st level, you have struck a bargain with an otherworldly being of your choice. Your choice grants you special features, as described in the Player's Handbook and other sources, as well as two cantrips as shown below.

Just pick two cantrips and your done! Thanks for the share btw, love the beholder patron.

[skaeren]

Yea, playing Dragonheist, and my DM has approved, as a backup character, a beholder (a spawn of Xanithar). However, it's 6th level ability depends on burning a spell slot. That is more what I was curious about. Using it at will might be a bit OP, but considering the random nature, perhaps not.

[Bjarkmundur]

Yea, playing Dragonheist, and my DM has approved, as a backup character, a beholder (a spawn of Xanithar). However, it's 6th level ability depends on burning a spell slot. That is more what I was curious about. Using it at will might be a bit OP, but considering the random nature, perhaps not.

What? No, not at all. The Eye Rays definitely have to be limited by a resource. Did I imply otherwise? I'm confuse.

[theVoidWatches]

I think Skaeren means that the patron has an ability which requires spending a spell slot, but this Warlock redesign doesn't give any spell slots.

Personally, I would say to make it a 1/short rest ability that upgrades to 2/short rest at level 11 and 3/short rest at 17. You have one use less than you would as a normal warlock, but those uses aren't competing with other spells, so I think it balances out.

[Bjarkmundur]

I think Skaeren means that the patron has an ability which requires spending a spell slot, but this Warlock redesign doesn't give any spell slots.

Personally, I would say to make it a 1/short rest ability that upgrades to 2/short rest at level 11 and 3/short rest at 17. You have one use less than you would as a normal warlock, but those uses aren't competing with other spells, so I think it balances out.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1

[Reevh]

I'm a little concerned about the primary damage ability of the Fiend-lock dealing fire damage, which is so commonly resisted. Perhaps instead of fire damage, it can be hellfire damage, which burns even beings ordinarily resistant or immune to fire?

Also, the Great Old One granting disadvantage on the next attack by creatures struck by the blast... I feel like since EB can be split among targets so easily, this lets you too easily give large numbers of enemies disadvantage. Actually, this affects a number of the blast effects. Maddening Blast seems especially OP. A free feeblemind 4x per round?

In general, I really like the idea of reworking the warlock class without spell slots. Simplifies a lot of the issues and makes Warlock more worth leveling past level 3.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm a little concerned about the primary damage ability of the Fiend-lock dealing fire damage, which is so commonly resisted. Perhaps instead of fire damage, it can be hellfire damage, which burns even beings ordinarily resistant or immune to fire?

I mean, they're still a Warlock. Fires of Hell might not work, but vanilla Eldritch Blast will always be solid-- and that's assuming you didn't grab another offensive Invocation, like Thief of Five Fates or Arms of Hadar.

Also, the Great Old One granting disadvantage on the next attack by creatures struck by the blast... I feel like since EB can be split among targets so easily, this lets you too easily give large numbers of enemies disadvantage. Actually, this affects a number of the blast effects.

Maybe they should only apply to your first shot each turn?

In general, I really like the idea of reworking the warlock class without spell slots. Simplifies a lot of the issues and makes Warlock more worth leveling past level 3.

Thanks! I've got a player running a Fiendlock using this system right now and he's having a blast.

[Reevh]

Maybe they should only apply to your first shot each turn?

I think that's a reasonable adjustment, but Maddening Blast is still too powerful. Being able to Feeblemind someone (an 8th level spell) as a cantrip every round is too much, especially with the added EB damage.