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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default EU to end daylight savings time

    About time .

    European Commissioner for Transport Violeta Bulc on Friday announced that the EU will stop the twice-yearly changing of clocks across the continent in October 2019.

    The practice, which was used as a means to conserve energy during the World Wars as well as the oil crises of the 1970s, became law across the bloc in 1996.

    All EU countries are required to move forward by an hour on the last Sunday of March and back by an hour on the final Sunday in October.

    Bulc said EU member states would have until April 2019 to decide whether they would permanently remain on summer or winter time.
    Good riddance to a terrible idea. I only hope the US follows suit quickly.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2018-09-19 at 12:22 PM.
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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    While I do agree it is a stupid, stupid practice - also because different states around the world can't agree on when to do it - and I am pretty convinced of removing it being the better idea... It's not entirely pointless. Switching to summer time all year round would mean a lot of dark in the early morning, making waking up rather more annoying. And sticking to winter time means a fewer light hours to enjoy in the summer evening. Not that hurtful but still sad.
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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    While I do agree it is a stupid, stupid practice - also because different states around the world can't agree on when to do it - and I am pretty convinced of removing it being the better idea... It's not entirely pointless. Switching to summer time all year round would mean a lot of dark in the early morning, making waking up rather more annoying. And sticking to winter time means a fewer light hours to enjoy in the summer evening. Not that hurtful but still sad.
    If those are my choices, I'll take winter time. In our part of the world, that means fewer kids wandering around in the dark waiting for school buses and being run over.


    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    While I do agree it is a stupid, stupid practice - also because different states around the world can't agree on when to do it - and I am pretty convinced of removing it being the better idea... It's not entirely pointless. Switching to summer time all year round would mean a lot of dark in the early morning, making waking up rather more annoying. And sticking to winter time means a fewer light hours to enjoy in the summer evening. Not that hurtful but still sad.
    Depends on which side of the equator you're on, too!

    I prefer Standard time as we call it here in the states, which means brighter mornings and darker evenings. Part of this stems from my early career as a paper boy with an over-active imagination (what monsters could be lurking on that dark porch I have to place a newspaper on?). Part of this stems from the fact that I don't like staying up late, and when you have to wait for the sky to get dark before the fireworks start, earlier sunset is better. Darker evenings are also better for stargazing. Riding my bike to work in the morning is also better with an earlier sunrise. But I'm not biased!
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2018-09-19 at 07:59 AM. Reason: Corrected typo in Title
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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Good riddance to a terrible idea. I only hope the US follows suit quickly.
    Except it's going to be problematic when two states of the same longitude decide to switch to different times, for no other reason than they don't want to be the same as the other state.

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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    This would happen just when we're leaving the EU so it probably won't happen in the UK--have wished for the end of BST/GMT switching for years.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Except it's going to be problematic when two states of the same longitude decide to switch to different times, for no other reason than they don't want to be the same as the other state.
    Considering China is, by decree, all one time zone, I'm sure we'll figure out how to cope with it. I mean, the US states of Arizona and Indiana have already quit changing their clocks, and it doesn't cause a huge problem. Okay, not a huge problem that I, a person who is definitely not responsible for synchronizing computer communications, am aware of.
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2018-09-19 at 12:30 PM. Reason: Fixed Title Typo
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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Considering China is, by decree, all one time zone, I'm sure we'll figure out how to cope with it. I mean, the US states of Arizona and Indiana have already quit changing their clocks, and it doesn't cause a huge problem. Okay, not a huge problem that I, a person who is definitely not responsible for synchronizing computer communications, am aware of.
    Also Hawai'i.

    And computers are fine - in fact, it'll make life considerably easier to not have to deal with that little piece of madness that is time changes:



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    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    You might want to edit the title, Brian.

    And yes, this is way overdue. People have been glued to their televisions at night for two generations, so what's the point of re-arranging the clock to give them more daylight to ignore?

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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    You might want to edit the title, Brian.

    And yes, this is way overdue. People have been glued to their televisions at night for two generations, so what's the point of re-arranging the clock to give them more daylight to ignore?
    I don't know where you live, but around here I definitely get out sometimes at the applicable hours.

    I don't really give a crab about daylight savings time either way. I think the excessive complaining some people do is stupid, but I'll happily believe the studies that show no real benefit to it either. What I do care about it that nice Central European time zone that keeps much of the continent in sync.

    [Rest of post deleted because I remembered the no politics rule. The summary is: too bad we're losing being in sync.]
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2018-09-19 at 02:49 PM.
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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    <self-edited>

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-09-19 at 12:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    You might want to edit the title, Brian.
    Noted and corrected, thank you.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Considering China is, by decree, all one time zone, I'm sure we'll figure out how to cope with it. I mean, the US states of Arizona and Indiana have already quit changing their clocks, and it doesn't cause a huge problem. Okay, not a huge problem that I, a person who is definitely not responsible for synchronizing computer communications, am aware of.
    Most of Indiana adopted DST relatively recently, actually, so that we'd be on the same time standard as the Eastern timezone that we're mostly closest to (instead of effectively switching back and forth between Eastern and Central depending on whether or not Daylight Saving was in effect.) Some of the western border counties opted not to use it/went on Central time, since their position and economic concerns are more closely aligned with that area. I think there's still like one county that just said screw it to the whole thing and is effectively their own weird microtimezone now.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    And computers are fine - in fact, it'll make life considerably easier to not have to deal with that little piece of madness that is time changes:

    Grey Wolf
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    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2018-09-19 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Stupid Title Typo! I swear, I'm going to remember to fix it next time!
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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    About time .



    Good riddance to a terrible idea. I only hope the US follows suit quickly.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Was the "About time" pun intended? Because it's a pretty good one.

    Also yay, good riddance.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Except it's going to be problematic when two states of the same longitude decide to switch to different times, for no other reason than they don't want to be the same as the other state.
    Only for the ignorant. I've lived in Arizona. No DST is much easier. Only those who are so geo-centric to not realize that time zones exist have problems. Go educate yourselves with www.timeanddate.com. As the world business gets more global, as people's social circles get more global, understanding the simple basic about different times in different places is something everyone should learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Considering China is, by decree, all one time zone, I'm sure we'll figure out how to cope with it. I mean, the US states of Arizona and Indiana have already quit changing their clocks, and it doesn't cause a huge problem. Okay, not a huge problem that I, a person who is definitely not responsible for synchronizing computer communications, am aware of.
    Computers have no problems. They (generally) use UTC and then convert for displaying what the stupid human sitting at the keyboard wants. Ever tried looking at your timezone settings on your computer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    I don't really give a crab about daylight savings time either way. I think the excessive complaining some people do is stupid, but I'll happily believe the studies that show no real benefit to it either. What I do care about it that nice Central European time zone that keeps much of the continent in sync.
    ^^ This.
    The whole stupid more daylight after work and kids in the dark is BS. IF any of those things are problems those are human made problems that are EASILY solved. The sun rises and set based upon the earth's orbit and has absolutely nothing to do with how we keep time and if we say it's is currently 6:42am or 3:55pm.

    Kids getting out of school when it's dark and you parents don't want that? Change your school times. Local control and all that.

    "But we can't start work an hour earlier! What would people do with their kids, or how would that effect traffic, or..." are just excuses, those states that use DST change their work hours twice per year. Doing it once, for ever, is much simpler.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    What I think is likely to happen is that DST/BST is in operation in the winter as well as the summer, and that will be very silly indeed.

    If Brexit doesn't mean we skip the whole thing entirely and stick to BST in the summer and GMT in the winter.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2018-09-19 at 06:20 PM.
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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Considering China is, by decree, all one time zone, I'm sure we'll figure out how to cope with it. I mean, the US states of Arizona and Indiana have already quit changing their clocks, and it doesn't cause a huge problem. Okay, not a huge problem that I, a person who is definitely not responsible for synchronizing computer communications, am aware of.
    Indiana as of 2006 uses Daylight Savings Time across the entire State. Only Arizona and Hawaii don't. And even then, the Navajo Nation does.

    Regardless, Arizona doesn't have a problem with every other state around it using DLS. I hope the U.S adopts this nationwide.
    Last edited by Razade; 2018-09-19 at 05:35 PM.

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    Default Re: EU to send daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    And computers are fine - in fact, it'll make life considerably easier to not have to deal with that little piece of madness that is time changes:

    Grey Wolf

    Unfortunately, the code to deal with time changes will still be there, just with one MORE check like
    Code:
    if (year < 2018 && country in eu_countries) { 
      /* existing EU time zone code */ 
    }
    We still need to be able to get the correct time for a date in 2016, after all.

    Fortunately, there's a couple of time zone library maintainers who actually have to deal with it, and the rest of us can just coast along on their hard work.

    Reminds me of a certain computer science flowchart:

    Code:
    +---------------------------------+
    | Should I write my own           |
    | time zone conversion library?   |
    +---------------------------------+
                 |
                 V
        +----------------+
        |        No      |
        +----------------+
                 |
                 V
    +---------------------------------+
    |        But what if....          |
    +---------------------------------+
                 |
                 V
        +----------------+
        |     OMG, NO    |
        +----------------+

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by LordEntrails View Post
    Kids getting out of school when it's dark and you parents don't want that? Change your school times. Local control and all that.
    Well, one of the reasons that school finishes when it does is so it doesn't clash with regular working hours, which isn't easy to change. Having said that, the time change takes place in summer when kids would be coming home in daylight regardless? During the winter you're back on the regular time zone, so sunset is actually an hour earlier than if you had TZ+1 all year round.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Indiana as of 2006 uses Daylight Savings Time across the entire State. Only Arizona and Hawaii don't. And even then, the Navajo Nation does.

    Regardless, Arizona doesn't have a problem with every other state around it using DLS. I hope the U.S adopts this nationwide.
    Arizona and the Navajo Nation is the fun one for USA's Daylight Savings Time Discussion. Most of Arizona doesn't do DST, but the Navajo Nation in Arizona does, but there's a chunk of Navajo Nation that's part of the Hopi Nation that doesn't. There is then another Navajo Nation bit inside the Hopi Nation chunk that does follow DST. And then that Hopi Nation part is also divided into two separate chunks, so you can like draw a straight line through all of this that has you adjusting for the presence or absence of DST like six times.
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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Well, one of the reasons that school finishes when it does is so it doesn't clash with regular working hours, which isn't easy to change. Having said that, the time change takes place in summer when kids would be coming home in daylight regardless? During the winter you're back on the regular time zone, so sunset is actually an hour earlier than if you had TZ+1 all year round.
    Basically this. We had a single EU wide time adjustment so we don't need thousands to millions of small separate instances like schools and companies do it themselves. Half work doesn't pay.
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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Arizona and the Navajo Nation is the fun one for USA's Daylight Savings Time Discussion. Most of Arizona doesn't do DST, but the Navajo Nation in Arizona does, but there's a chunk of Navajo Nation that's part of the Hopi Nation that doesn't. There is then another Navajo Nation bit inside the Hopi Nation chunk that does follow DST. And then that Hopi Nation part is also divided into two separate chunks, so you can like draw a straight line through all of this that has you adjusting for the presence or absence of DST like six times.
    Of course my experience with the Hopis and Navajos is they don't interact with each other much. And of course, the scale of commerce and business is... probably less than a hamlet in Europe.

    So of course this is an interesting piece of "time" facts, but really people deal with it and it probably has little real impact. Just like all these other "problems" that people think impact them. What would really happen if one spring people actually didn't change their clocks? Maybe people wouldn't be an hour late for work one Monday a year?

    Step back and think about it. Here in the States they've changed the dates of DST and people haven't had problems with it. Removing it completely is something that you would notice for about a week, then you would adapt.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Oh, you'd probably notice the switch not happening. Those are the two worst weeks of the year for traffic accidents, for starters.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    If they opt to remain on "summer time" then good for them. If they opt to remain on "winter time," then...I vehemently disagree w/ their choice....

    I defend DST often, not because I like the time changes, but because too often the proposed solution is to revert back to "standard time" year-round and get rid of "daylight savings time" completely, rather than the opposite.
    We (US) spend 7 months in "DST" and 5 in "standard" time, yet the one we spend less time in is "standard." At least Europe had the foresight to give countries the choice.
    Having the clocks 1 hour ahead is much better. I don't care if it's still dark when I go to work in the morning, but walking out at the end of the day to pitch darkness is just dispiriting.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Would you feel the same way if we went back to how it was originally established, and only had DST running for four and a half months?

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Would you feel the same way if we went back to how it was originally established, and only had DST running for four and a half months?
    When was this, exactly?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylig..._United_States

    The plan was not adopted in the United States until the Standard Time Act of March 19, 1918, which confirmed the existing standard time zone system and set summer DST to begin on March 31, 1918 (reverting October 27).
    The first use in the US was March 31 - October 27, roughly half the year.

    The result was the Uniform Time Act of 1966 (P.L. 89-387). Beginning in 1967, the act mandated standard time within the established time zones and provided for advanced time: clocks would be advanced one hour beginning at 2:00 a.m. on the last Sunday in April and turned back one hour at 2:00 a.m. on the last Sunday in October.
    Again, roughly half the year.

    Then 1973-1975, the US went to "year round" DST. Then...

    In 1986 Congress enacted P.L. 99-359, amending the Uniform Time Act by changing the beginning of DST to the first Sunday in April and having the end remain the last Sunday in October.
    Oh, look. Before most of us on this site were even born, DST is already more than half of the year.

    By the Energy Policy Act of 2005, daylight saving time (DST) was extended in the United States beginning in 2007. As from that year, DST begins on the second Sunday of March and ends on the first Sunday of November.
    And there's our current DST time range, longer still.
    Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2018-09-20 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Having the clocks 1 hour ahead is much better. I don't care if it's still dark when I go to work in the morning, but walking out at the end of the day to pitch darkness is just dispiriting.
    While I agree with the general principle of what you're saying, in many places in Europe it doesn't actually make much of a difference. For example, in London this year daylight savings ends on October 27th, at which point sunset is already at 17:43 BST--so even if it's not dark when you leave work, it'll probably be by the time you get home. By the time you get to the end of November sunset is before 5pm even if DST were still in effect, and it stays that way until the following January. And this is in London, note--there are plenty of places in Europe, and even in the UK, which are a lot further north than that and thus get shorter winter days.

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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    There is a part of me that is curious why the decision must be to decide between winter or summer time and then stick with that decision, when one could lessen the extremes of the two by deciding to switch to the middle of the two. So you're just off by thirty minutes on both halves of the year, as opposed to being not-off half a year and off by an hour for the rest of the half, give or take.

    But then the other part of me knows that would be ridiculously reckless and could lead to a whole cascade of adding, changing, and removing time zones that will just make even more problems.
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    Default Re: EU to end daylight savings time

    As a teen who used to hang out in RP chatrooms on Yahoo in the 90s (when we'd all post things like "I will be back 6 hours from now" when we left to explain when we'd be online again since timezone were a pain), I developed the opinion that everyone world-wide should just be on GMT (and use 24 rather than 12 hour time), and post the hours they actually plan to be awake, at work, and/or doing stuff in appropriate places as needed. Twenty years later, this still has some appeal.

    I mean, why does it matter that the work day starts at 8 am rather than 2 pm or 3 am? We'd just adjust to the idea of whichever hours actually made sense for local business hours in each place and it would be much less confusing to people in other places in the world when they saw a time posted.

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