Skills for Fiends?

[OverdrivePrime]

Hi Everyone,
I'm running my party through a series of (mostly social, hopefully) encounters with a colony of devils. My players, all in the level 15-17 range, are doing their best to fast talk the Gelugon and its underlings into seeing things their way, and have been surprisingly successful.

I've mitigated a few things with some on-the-fly adjustments to the devils' statblocks, but it seems kind of crazy that a wizard and a mystic should run roughshod in social encounters over greater devils of any stripe.

I can't find skill proficiencies listed for any of the Baatezu or Tanar'ri. Succubi, Rakshasa, Imps, Quasits, even Night Hags get various skill proficiencis listed, but nothing for true demons and devils. Are they just assumed to be proficient in whatever's needed?

How much does adding proficiency in skills like insight, deception, arcana and persuasion change the encounter level?


Thanks in advance!

[Unoriginal]

I can't find skill proficiencies listed for any of the Baatezu or Tanar'ri. Succubi, Rakshasa, Imps, Quasits, even Night Hags get various skill proficiencis listed, but nothing for true demons and devils. Are they just assumed to be proficient in whatever's needed?

The default statblock doesn't have those proficiencies, but yes, you can whichever proficiency you deems relevant without any issue.

Keep in mind that while their mental stats make Gelugon genius-level in intelligence and charisma, and far superior to the typical humanoids, at lvl 15-17 a PC is a hero on a scope of several planes of existence.

One Ice Devil is an Easy encounter for them, if they're a group of 4.

Also keep in mind that the MM stat are for your typical monster of this category, and that atypical monsters are quite possible.

How much does adding proficiency in skills like insight, deception, arcana and persuasion change the encounter level?

It changes absolutely nothing. CR doesn't calculate that kings of things.

[OverdrivePrime]

Okay, that's what I was hoping for. I've been running 5e for about 9 months, and I'm still used to my old 3.5/P stat blocks where absolutely everything was spelled out.

And yeah, the Gelugon Devil and its crew (a couple Erinyes, a couple Horned Devils, and a few wyverns) are no match for the almighty PCs, and they know it. The devils are treating the players as if they're a trio of (surprisingly chatty and non-hostile) adult dragons.

I'm trying to figure out how much Ice Devil and the Erinyes can read from the party through perception, insight, and arcana checks when they pass that info along to the pit fiend they report to. In last night's game, I made 12 straight checks for the devils with rolls of 9 or lower, so my answer is currently "pretty much nothing," but the devil's terrible luck probably won't hold.

[Kadesh]

If you're making multiple checks, as a DM, a passive check over time can assay that far easier, whole specific interactions can be done case by case.

Passive isn't necessarily preserved for Investigation or Perception, and a passive insight check can represent continual query.

Also, specific, exception creatures might have an Insight prof, as a capable creature.

[Unoriginal]

Okay, that's what I was hoping for. I've been running 5e for about 9 months, and I'm still used to my old 3.5/P stat blocks where absolutely everything was spelled out.

And yeah, the Gelugon Devil and its crew (a couple Erinyes, a couple Horned Devils, and a few wyverns) are no match for the almighty PCs, and they know it. The devils are treating the players as if they're a trio of (surprisingly chatty and non-hostile) adult dragons.

I'm trying to figure out how much Ice Devil and the Erinyes can read from the party through perception, insight, and arcana checks when they pass that info along to the pit fiend they report to. In last night's game, I made 12 straight checks for the devils with rolls of 9 or lower, so my answer is currently "pretty much nothing," but the devil's terrible luck probably won't hold.

Are the PCs actively hiding something?


Remember that rolls only happen if there is an uncertain outcome AND if failure is interesting. Knowing how most PCs act, the devils should be able to learn a lot about them without even rolling anything.

Also remember that it's not "an arcana check" or "a perception check", it's an Intelligence check (with relevant proficiency) or a Wisdom check (with relevant proficiency)

Even if you roll, and even with rolling a 9 the Ice Devil would have 13 to the Intelligence check due to its 18 in INT, and 13 is already pretty nice.

[hymer]

I'm trying to figure out how much Ice Devil and the Erinyes can read from the party through perception, insight, and arcana checks when they pass that info along to the pit fiend they report to. In last night's game, I made 12 straight checks for the devils with rolls of 9 or lower, so my answer is currently "pretty much nothing," but the devil's terrible luck probably won't hold.

In your shoes and given the rolls, I'd have the devils allowing for the possibility that the PCs might not be lying right now (because they're justifiably paranoid about that sort of thing). But they would also plan for how to screw the PCs over in a handful ways or more (because higher devils are clever and devious like that). The PCs will just have to spring their betrayal first, and the devils won't be surprised if that happens, whatever the rolls. They've seen it before too many times.