Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such

[hymer]

Dear Playgrounders, as usual I go to you to get your valued input. Thank you much already!

How do you interpret and play Mirror Image with regards to AoE damage? Does that wipe all the images and damage the caster, or how do you do it?

How about Magic Missiles? Say there are two images left, and you cast a standard 3-missile volley. Can you split them up and target each potential MI-caster? What if the MI-caster then casts Shield?

[ImproperJustice]

Mirror Image has a clause that it ignores all damage and effects from anything other than an attack that hits it. Itseems they would survive an AoE.

Magic Missile requires you to target a creature.
It seems in the spirit of the rules that a Magic Missile Spread could target multiple images, and I would roll to check and see if you nailed the caster.
Magic Missile is just like a firebolt except it just automatically strikes it’s target.

[leogobsin]

The description of Mirror Image explicitly says "A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects." As for Magic Missile, the description says "Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range", and the duplicates aren't actually creatures, so I would say the darts can't be directed at duplicates, but would just automatically hit the real creature.

[rbstr]

Magic missile isn't really an "attack" so maybe you could say it hits the actual creautre automatically.
But I'd rule that each individual dart shot at the creature rolls to see if it hits the real creature or the images. At the point it automatically hits the thing. (Unlike an attack, which would have to make an attack roll vs. the image or creature still)
The Mirror Images aren't independently targetable things. You try to hit *the creature* but you're not sure exactly which it is. You maybe pick the right one or you maybe don't.

The shield spell could only be cast against Missiles that hit the creature, not the images. (you cast it "when you are hit" not "when you're attacked")

[Tanarii]

The description of Mirror Image explicitly says "A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects." As for Magic Missile, the description says "Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range", and the duplicates aren't actually creatures, so I would say the darts can't be directed at duplicates, but would just automatically hit the real creature.

Right. You can no more target an image with Magic Missile than you can with Hold Person. Effects that target a creature but aren't an attack just affect the creature directly.

[Kane0]

Yeah and EB doesnt work against objects.

[BurgerBeast]

This has been debated as nauseum in another thread. I’m of the view expressed by others: AoEs can damage the target but the images will be unaffected (they will all appear exactly as the caster does); for magic missile, roll to see what the magic missile strikes as if it is an attack.

I think the other arguments that bring in the targeting rules are absolutely ridiculous. They completely fail to acknowledge narrative consistency or are otherwise incoherent.

[Erys]

Magic missile isn't really an "attack" so maybe you could say it hits the actual creautre automatically.

This is RAW correct.

But I'd rule that each individual dart shot at the creature rolls to see if it hits the real creature or the images. At the point it automatically hits the thing. (Unlike an attack, which would have to make an attack roll vs. the image or creature still)
The Mirror Images aren't independently targetable things. You try to hit *the creature* but you're not sure exactly which it is. You maybe pick the right one or you maybe don't.

The shield spell could only be cast against Missiles that hit the creature, not the images. (you cast it "when you are hit" not "when you're attacked")

If you want to house rule as such, that is fine. There are others who have...

[BurgerBeast]

This is RAW correct.

No, it isn’t. This has been debunked a million times.

The text of mirror image gives specific instructions on how to resolve attacks against the target.

It also gives specific instruction on how to resolve AoEs against the target.

It gives no instruction on how to resolve targeted spells when the caster attempts to target the mirror imaged target.

However, the general effect of the mirror image is clear, and is in effect whenever the mirror imaged target is targeted.

RAW do not tell the DM what to do in this case. I think the answer is obvious.

Edit: then, Xanathars provided rules for invalid targets (on p. 85-86), which ended the argument, in my opinion.

But the people who, like Erys, insisted that they were following the RAW, then claimed that Xanathars actually supported their claim... well, I’m sorry. You’re wrong. It’s exactly as I claimed all along.

[Erys]

No, it isn’t. This has been debunked a million times.

The text of mirror image gives specific instructions on how to resolve attacks against the target.

It also gives specific instruction on how to resolve AoEs against the target.

It gives no instruction on how to resolve targeted spells when the caster attempts to target the mirror imaged target.

However, the general effect of the mirror image is clear, and is in effect whenever the mirror imaged target is targeted.

RAW do not tell the DM what to do in this case. I think the answer is obvious.

Edit: then, Xanathars provided rules for invalid targets (on p. 85-86), which ended the argument, in my opinion.

But the people who, like Erys, insisted that they were following the RAW, then claimed that Xanathars actually supported their claim... well, I’m sorry. You’re wrong. It’s exactly as I claimed all along.

Dude, don't start this nonsense up again.

You want to use the fluff of Mirror Image to justify your houserule, that is fine.

But the RAW is clear. Mirror Image only affects Attacks, Attacks require Attack Rolls, Magic Missile auto-hits(i.e. there is no Attack Roll) and therefore is not an Attack. Period.

[willdaBEAST]

Can you expand upon why those pages of Xanathar's support your claim that magic missile will randomly target between the individual and the mirror images?

To me that's the intuitive ruling, but it also seems to be against JC's ruling (however much that means to you: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/23...-mirror-image/

It's strange to me that the technicality of magic missile not being an attack (but requiring sight) would ignore the obfuscation of an illusion spell that is designed to make the target difficult to determine.

If you're going to rule that dramatically, doesn't it make more sense to see if you even picked the right target in the first place? So you'd roll the d20 to see if you hit the target or an illusion and every magic missile will hit either the same illusion or the real caster, unless the aggressor chooses to spread magic missile to the multiple versions of the target they're perceiving. I guess I see the logic in magic missile being an active counter to mirror image though, but that's more from a meta perspective than anything I'm gleaning from the spells.

[guachi]

Dude, don't start this nonsense up again.

You want to use the fluff of Mirror Image to justify your houserule, that is fine.

But the RAW is clear. Mirror Image only affects Attacks, Attacks require Attack Rolls, Magic Missile auto-hits(i.e. there is no Attack Roll) and therefore is not an Attack. Period.

The only example for attacks that don't require attack rolls are specifically called out. Things like grappling. So you could attempt to grapple a person under Mirror Image and end up grappling an image by mistake. Magic Missile, like you said, isn't fooled by a Mirror Image because it's not an attack.

[Ganymede]

It's strange to me that the technicality of magic missile not being an attack (but requiring sight) would ignore the obfuscation of an illusion spell that is designed to make the target difficult to determine.

Thematically, it is because Magic Missiles are "fire and forget." There's no aiming, there's no calling your shot, you simply select your target and the missiles damage it through their own volition. In that regard, the spell is very similar to Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, Poison Spray, and any other spell where aiming a projectile of some sort is not involved.

[BurgerBeast]

Dude, don't start this nonsense up again.

You want to use the fluff of Mirror Image to justify your houserule, that is fine.

But the RAW is clear. Mirror Image only affects Attacks, Attacks require Attack Rolls, Magic Missile auto-hits(i.e. there is no Attack Roll) and therefore is not an Attack. Period.

I didn’t start it. You did, with false your assertion about the RAW.

You can continue with your houserule.

Nowhere in the RAW does it say that mirror image only affects attacks.

Can you expand upon why those pages of Xanathar's support your claim that magic missile will randomly target between the individual and the mirror images?

You don't even need to go there. You just read the description of mirror image (PHB 260), which says: "Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space."

Now there are four potential targets in the caster's space.

Then you read PHB 204 (Targets): "A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic."

And that's the end of the argument.

The caster has to pick a target.

---

However, some people claimed that, because the duplicates are not valid targets, it is literally impossible to strike them with magic missile, and they went so far as to say that magic missile would essentially "seek out" the only valid target in the square. That's nonsense, on the face of it, but there was no RAW to tell us if this was the rule or not, until Xanathar's. Xanathar's makes it clear that this is wrong. As it should be, and this should have been obvious.

To me that's the intuitive ruling, but it also seems to be against JC's ruling (however much that means to you: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/23...-mirror-image/

JC makes mistakes. And this is a particularly easy mistake to make. There are plenty of people who continue to make it.

It's strange to me that the technicality of magic missile not being an attack (but requiring sight) would ignore the obfuscation of an illusion spell that is designed to make the target difficult to determine.

If you're going to rule that dramatically, doesn't it make more sense to see if you even picked the right target in the first place? So you'd roll the d20 to see if you hit the target or an illusion and every magic missile will hit either the same illusion or the real caster, unless the aggressor chooses to spread magic missile to the multiple versions of the target they're perceiving. I guess I see the logic in magic missile being an active counter to mirror image though, but that's more from a meta perspective than anything I'm gleaning from the spells.

Precisely. Now, in fairness, the spell doesn't tell the DM how to resolve the target in the case of a targeted spell. So there is no prescribed method to determine the target of a magic missile. But this doesn't absolve the caster of his obligation to choose a target. The DM is free to resolve this as he sees fit, within the guidelines of the rules that do exist. I think the same d20 mechanic is fine, but you could choose a more mathematically appropriate method if you wanted.

The only example for attacks that don't require attack rolls are specifically called out. Things like grappling. So you could attempt to grapple a person under Mirror Image and end up grappling an image by mistake. Magic Missile, like you said, isn't fooled by a Mirror Image because it's not an attack.

This is riddled with errors, but to keep it simple: whether or not magic missile is an attack is entirely oblique to this argument. The caster of magic missile must choose a target. He sees four of the same creature. He has to pick one.

Thematically, it is because Magic Missiles are "fire and forget." There's no aiming, there's no calling your shot, you simply select your target and the missiles damage it through their own volition. In that regard, the spell is very similar to Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, Poison Spray, and any other spell where aiming a projectile of some sort is not involved.

The fact that you “fire and forget” does not absolve you of the requirement to choose a target, as you admit. The caster sees four identical targets. He has to pick one. This is undeniable.

I agree that it is similar to those other spells. In all of those cases, the caster must choose a target. The caster must choose a target. We do not need to get into any discussion about what is or isn’t an attack. The only thing that matters is that the caster must choose a target. There are four identical creatures. The caster must pick one.

[Galithar]

Disclaimer: I only read the first few posts so may be repeating someone.

Mirror image creates 3 duplicates that move in tandem and make the original caster impossible to track. Each time an attack is directed at the creature who cast it you roll a D20 to see if it hits a duplicate or the original.

"If you have three duplicates, you must roll a 6 or higher to change the attack's target to a duplicate. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher."

When you cast magic missle you create 3 (or more) darts of force. You are not targeting the duplicates, or the creature. You target the creature and then THEY roll a D20 for each time they are targeted. Since magic missle indicates that all attacks hit simultaneously I would rule that all the rolls be made in accordance to the number of duplicates at the initial casting. A fresh cast with 3 duplicates would roll and all 6s or higher would target a duplicate. I would also rule that each dart would target a random duplicate (rolled for by the DM) allowing for the possibility of multiple darts hitting the same duplicate.

The line in Mirror Image "shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real" reads to be that even if I choose the one on the left, by the time I act the shifting positions would confuse my brain to the point that tracking a specific image is impossible. The spell clearly puts whether a duplicate or the caster is targeted to a dice roll that is in the caters hand. I feel any ruling that takes that away from them is a Nerf to the intent of Mirror Image.

Now you could rule that while you can't track a specific target you could ensure they don't hit the same target. I feel that this interpretation is against RAW, but wild definitely fit for a more realistic interpretation of the spell interaction.

As for AoE damage it would completely ignore the Mirror Image spell. No damage mitigated, no duplicates destroyed.


Edited for clarity

[leogobsin]

Nowhere in the RAW does it say that mirror image only affects attacks.

The description of Mirror Image says "Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration". That's about as clearly as you can say that Mirror Image only affects attacks. It doesn't say anything about how it affects non-attack targeted spells/features so it seems to me a totally logical assumption that it doesn't affect them at all.

[Galithar]

The description of Mirror Image says "Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration". That's about as clearly as you can say that Mirror Image only affects attacks. It doesn't say anything about how it affects non-attack targeted spells/features so it seems to me a totally logical assumption that it doesn't affect them at all.

Edited to remove me contradicting myself in this post lol

I'll give the rules as written answer. RAW states:

"If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts an attack, the rule is simple, if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack"
PHB 194

So magic missle is RAW not an attack and would bypass Mirror Image completely.

[Lunali]

Much like a fireball, magic missile is not an attack. RAW it hits the creature automatically despite the images, that said, I would create and argue for house rules that it can hit images instead.

I would treat the attacks as either hitting different images or the same one depending on what the caster decided before the image chance was rolled, in almost every case I would assume they would choose to spread them out to clear out the images.

[Tanarii]

The description of Mirror Image says "Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration". That's about as clearly as you can say that Mirror Image only affects attacks. It doesn't say anything about how it affects non-attack targeted spells/features so it seems to me a totally logical assumption that it doesn't affect them at all.

Yup. It would have to say it has an effect on them to change their behavior.

If you target a creature under the effect of Mirror Image with a spell or affect, regardless of its attack, it isn't "creature + # illusionary creatures, pick one" for purposes of such a spell. It is "creature under the effect of Mirror Image". There's only one creature involved, and it is targeted. If it was intended for the spell to function that you had to correctly pick the target among images first, it would say to do that, before the step of redirecting attacks. Clearly this is not the case.

So after you've targeted the creature without having to pick among images, you check if the spell is an attack. If it is not, Mirror Image doesn't say to do anything different from normal resolution. So resolve as normal.

[BurgerBeast]

The description of Mirror Image says "Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration". That's about as clearly as you can say that Mirror Image only affects attacks. It doesn't say anything about how it affects non-attack targeted spells/features so it seems to me a totally logical assumption that it doesn't affect them at all.

It’s totally illogical. In any context.

Each time X happens, Y happens never, ever, ever, not even remotely, ever suggests that Y only happens when X.

That is a logical error. Sometimes it will be true, but it will not be because of the phrasing. It will because of other knowledge.

Examples:

Every time I walk to school, I see a stop sign. This does not imply that I will only ever see a stop sign if I walk to school.

Every time I smell fresh bread, my mouth waters. This does not imply that my mouth only waters when I smell fresh bread.

It is a total non sequitur.

Just because the spell description tells you how to handle attacks does not mean that it is the only effect of the spell. Not especially when the spell's primary effect is to create three illusory duplicates. Every other effect is conditional.

Edited to remove me contradicting myself in this post lol

I'll give the rules as written answer. RAW states:

"If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts an attack, the rule is simple, if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack"
PHB 194

So magic missle is RAW not an attack and would bypass Mirror Image completely.

Whether magic missile is an attack is irrelevant. The spell effect is to create three illusory duplicates in your square. Those duplicates are there. They are an effect of the spell. They exist in the game world. That is the effect of the spell.

The duplicates can be targeted, because anything can be targeted.

...RAW it hits the creature automatically despite the images,...

False.

Yup. It would have to say it has an effect on them to change their behavior.

This is false, and frankly in almost every other context you would argue the opposite. If a dungeon room description listed a statue on a table, would you say that you can’t do anythig to it because the description doesn’t say so? It can’t be picked up, targeted, attacked, etc? Of course not. A statue behaves like a statue.

An illusory duplicate is an illusory duplicate. It looks identical to the caster. It’s entire purpose is to present an alternate target.

If you target a creature under the effect of Mirror Image with a spell or affect, regardless of its attack, it isn't "creature + # illusionary creatures, pick one" for purposes of such a spell. It is "creature under the effect of Mirror Image". There's only one creature involved, and it is targeted.

1. What is a “creature under the effect of mirror image”? It’s four identical figures that all look like the creature. Let’s not play semantics here.

2. If there are four frogs on the ground, but three of them are minor illusions, and a wizard casts magic missile at “the frog,” does he have to pick the right one or does it auto hit the real one? Of course he has to pick the frog.

If it was intended for the spell to function that you had to correctly pick the target among images first, it would say to do that, before the step of redirecting attacks. Clearly this is not the case.

If you play that game, you’ll open the door to biased readings. Stop trying to guess what they meant to write and simply read what they wrote. Nothing in what they wrote indicates what people are saying. People are taking what JC said into account and then reading the description in light of it. If you just read it for what it is, it’s not there.

So after you've targeted the creature without having to pick among images, you check if the spell is an attack. If it is not, Mirror Image doesn't say to do anything different from normal resolution. So resolve as normal.

You can’t target a creature without picking among images. You must pick a target. Bob declares that he is going to cast magic missile. He says he wants to cast it on Zeke (who has mirror image up).

As is always the case in D&D, the target must be selected. There is no magic radar. “Zeke is my target” is not sufficient if the character cannot determine who or where Zeke is.

This goes back to the ad nauseum discussion in the last thread. What if there are three identical robed figures with their backs to you, and you want to cast hold person on Zeke? Does magic missile just know where to strike? If two of them are illusions, does magic missile auomatically ignore them and strike Zeke? If you cast hold person at Zeke, but you didn’t know that Zeke is a vampire and one of the other robed figures is a wight, then would it automatically target third creature because it’s a human?

It’s all ridiculous. Whenever a wizard casts a spell, even a spell like sacred flame or magic missile, the wizard must identify a target. Spells can’t identify targets. That’s B.S.

[Zalabim]

Spells are a discrete packet of rules that do what they say they do, no more and no less, because that's the definition the game gives for spells. I don't really expect anyone who doesn't already understand this to grok it at this point, but it needed to be said.

[Lunali]

For those that say that magic missile hits mirror images, how do you rule magic missile + hex? RAW, hex isn't triggered by magic missile because it isn't an attack, but if you decide that it is, the combo results in massive damage at low levels.

[Ganymede]

The fact that you “fire and forget” does not absolve you of the requirement to choose a target, as you admit. The caster sees four identical targets. He has to pick one. This is undeniable.

I agree that it is similar to those other spells. In all of those cases, the caster must choose a target. The caster must choose a target. We do not need to get into any discussion about what is or isn’t an attack. The only thing that matters is that the caster must choose a target. There are four identical creatures. The caster must pick one.

Ok, I get you.

Yeah, Mirror Image does not create four targets.

"Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real."

The spell does not create discrete copies of a spellcaster in the same way as Invoke Duplicity (which can make four versions of the spellcaster) or similar abilities. All of the duplicates created by Mirror Image are in the exact same space and shift around that space to prevent tracking the real one. If the spell made discrete copies that were independent targets to choose for an attack, like Invoke Duplicity, it would absolutely be possible to simply follow the real one with your eyes. (this is also important because it seems absurd to select one of the four copies as a target when the spell itself says that they are all impossible to track; if you can't track them, you can't pick out any one of the four as discrete targets.)

It is a bit metagamey, but the duplicates all being in the same space is also a big deal, too. There is a big difference between four wizards all smashed together into a single 5' square and two identical wizards standing in adjacent 5' squares. The first is an impossibility under the movement and positioning rules, and it would likely be perceived as some sort of impossibility or contradiction in the game world.

Personally, I imagine Mirror Image as a spinning fractal type situation, a la Doctor Strange.

But yeah, to reiterate: Mirror Image screws up aiming, which has no effect on spells and abilities that do not involve aiming. It'll foil a Firebolt or an arrow, but a Hold Person or Slow spell is not stopped.

[BurgerBeast]

Spells are a discrete packet of rules that do what they say they do, no more and no less, because that's the definition the game gives for spells. I don't really expect anyone who doesn't already understand this to grok it at this point, but it needed to be said.

Agreed. And the spell says it creates three illusory duplicates. That’s what it says it does. No less.

For those that say that magic missile hits mirror images, how do you rule magic missile + hex? RAW, hex isn't triggered by magic missile because it isn't an attack, but if you decide that it is, the combo results in massive damage at low levels.

Again, you are confused about my argument. I’m not claiming that magic missile is an attack. So hex does not work with magic missile.

Ok, I get you.

Yeah, Mirror Image does not create four targets.

"Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real."

The spell does not create discrete copies of a spellcaster in the same way as Invoke Duplicity (which can make four versions of the spellcaster) or similar abilities. All of the duplicates created by Mirror Image are in the exact same space and shift around that space to prevent tracking the real one. If the spell made discrete copies that were independent targets to choose for an attack, like Invoke Duplicity, it would absolutely be possible to simply follow the real one with your eyes. (this is also important because it seems absurd to select one of the four copies as a target when the spell itself says that they are all impossible to track; if you can't track them, you can't pick out any one of the four as discrete targets.)

The duplicates are undeniably discrete. That’s why we can say there are three, and then two, and then one, and then zero. That’s what discrete means.

They are independently targetable, by which I mean you can hit one and only one.

The writers were careful to say that the images are not trackable, but not that they are indistinguishable. [edit: indistinguishable is the wrong word here - I’m trying to say that although they can’t be distinguished, there are clearly three or two or one or zero - you just don’t know which is which. Perhaps I should say they can be differentiated in any given instant, but then the observer loses track of which is which in the next monent] Any claims such as those you’ve made are more than what the spell description says.

So, perhaps if your visualization were true, the n your explanation would make sense. But the spell does not say that your explanation is true, so to adopt it would be choosing to add more to the spell description.

My visualization of the spell adds no more or no less. It is more or less what you described:

If the spell made discrete copies that were independent targets to choose for an attack, like Invoke Duplicity, it would absolutely be possible to simply follow the real one with your eyes. (this is also important because it seems absurd to select one of the four copies as a target when the spell itself says that they are all impossible to track; if you can't track them, you can't pick out any one of the four as discrete targets.)

Except that what makes them impossible to track is that they more or less constantly pass in front of, behind, and even through each other [edit: and the caster].

It is a bit metagamey, but the duplicates all being in the same space is also a big deal, too. There is a big difference between four wizards all smashed together into a single 5' square and two identical wizards standing in adjacent 5' squares.

There really isn’t [edit: a relevant difference. In both cases, there are two discrete targets to pick from. It’s the same as if Boo is on Minsc’s shoulder. A caster can select Boo or Minsc. And you can go further with this. Minsc and Boo could be one illusion, or they could be two (one of Minsc and one of Boo). The caster would never know, so in both cases he’d have to choose to target either Minsc or Boo, but the situation would resolve differently depending on context.]

The first is an impossibility under the movement and positioning rules, and it would likely be perceived as some sort of impossibility or contradiction in the game world.

I don’t buy this, at all.

But even if I did, the impossibility vilify or contradiction that is perceived is still the one described in the spell. No more and no less. There are three duplicates and one person in the space, and the attacker/caster has to choose one.

Personally, I imagine Mirror Image as a spinning fractal type situation, a la Doctor Strange.

But yeah, to reiterate: Mirror Image screws up aiming, which has no effect on spells and abilities that do not involve aiming. It'll foil a Firebolt or an arrow, but a Hold Person or Slow spell is not stopped.

All of this is more than what the spell description says.

Edit: you’ve also got work to do if you wish to distinguish between the difficulty in aiming an arrow versus a magic missile. I suspect that a more analytical investigation of this will lead you to similar conclusions to my own.

[Lunali]

Again, you are confused about my argument. I’m not claiming that magic missile is an attack. So hex does not work with magic missile.

From mirror image: "Each time a creature Targets you with an Attack during the spell's Duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the Attack instead Targets one of your duplicates." If magic missile is not an attack it is not affected by mirror image.

[Arial Black]

I like you, BurgerBeast; you're funny.

I like your amusing take on mirror image. In fact, I'm going to try to fool my DM and pretend MI works like you suggest.

I'll convince him that spells which say the caster needs to choose a target (like magic missile) have to choose which image (from the 3 illusions + 1 real) to affect. If an image is chosen, the the missile hits the image instead of the caster.

Once I've duped him into accepting that definition of 'choose a target', I'll start to rule the world.

First, I'll point out that the 'choose a target' part of MM actually says, "Each dart hits a creature within range that you can see".

I'll then point out that charm person's wording of 'choose your target' is, "a humanoid you can see within range".

Therefore, since I've already duped my DM into accepting that this kind of 'choosing a target' means that the caster must choose between mirror images and me, this means that MI protects against charm person.

And hold person; "choose a humanoid you can see within range".

And chain lightning; "You create a bolt of lightning that arcs toward a target of your choice that you can see within range".

And finger of death; "a creature you can see within range".

And feeblemind; "You blast the mind of a creature you can see within range".

Oh, and power word kill! "compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly".

In fact, using your clever twist, I can get a lowly 2nd level spell which is specifically designed to defend against attack rolls to ALSO defend against spells which require a saving throw! BurgerBeast FTW!

I need your help for another thing: magic missile says that it "hits a creature of your choice"; how do I fool my DM into thinking that illusory images are 'creatures'?

[Xetheral]

Each time X happens, Y happens never, ever, ever, not even remotely, ever suggests that Y only happens when X.

(Bold emphasis added.) Sure it does! It's common for people to use language without regard for the rules of deductive logic.

Example: "If it looks like it will rain, I'll carry my umbrella."

It is entirely valid to interpret the speaker as suggesting that they will only carry their umbrella if it looks like rain, even though that interpretation would be incorrect under the rules of deductive logic. If you go around assuming that no one ever makes logical mistakes in their statements, you're going to misinterpret a lot of people!

When considering interpretations of Mirror Image, it's entirely reasonable to prefer interpretations that are strictly consistent with the rules of deductive logic. But I would argue that it's unreasonable to automatically dismiss possible interpretations just because they contain common logical errors that crop up all the time in language.

Let me reframe the debate in these terms:

1. If your interpretation of the spell is correct, then the designers didn't make a logical error. Great! But they also failed to specify how the spell works in a large subset of cases.
2. If the other interpretation is correct, then the designers gave a complete specification of the spell's function. Great! But they also made a common logical error.

I don't think it's possible to categorically exclude either interpretation.

[Cybren]

I think BurgerBeast is advocating for what is a valid interpretation of the rules from a diegetic perspective, and would function as a good way to interpret the rules if your table is framed in that particular way. I also think that a very small minority of people on this forum read the rules that way, so it's unlikely people will agree with it here (and is more likely to encounter hyperbolic "you D&D wrong" responses)

[BurgerBeast]

From mirror image: "Each time a creature Targets you with an Attack during the spell's Duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the Attack instead Targets one of your duplicates." If magic missile is not an attack it is not affected by mirror image.

No. This is a logical error that has been repeated ad nauseum.

I like you, BurgerBeast; you're funny.

I can hear the goodesteps of a scarecrow army approachIng

I like your amusing take on mirror image. In fact, I'm going to try to fool my DM and pretend MI works like you suggest.

I like Your amusing take on magic missile and the general rules of spell casting.

I'll convince him that spells which say the caster needs to choose a target (like magic missile) have to choose which image (from the 3 illusions + 1 real) to affect. If an image is chosen, the the missile hits the image instead of the caster.

And the first scarecrow arrives. No, if an image is chosen, the target still has to be resolved via a randomizing mechanic, because the caster cannot tell which are images and which is a creature.

Once I've duped him into accepting that definition of 'choose a target', I'll start to rule the world.

Have fun with that.

First, I'll point out that the 'choose a target' part of MM actually says, "Each dart hits a creature within range that you can see".

I'll then point out that charm person's wording of 'choose your target' is, "a humanoid you can see within range".

Therefore, since I've already duped my DM into accepting that this kind of 'choosing a target' means that the caster must choose between mirror images and me, this means that MI protects against charm person.

Second scarecrow.

Yes, charm person presents the same problem to a caster. Just like any other situation, when the caster sees four identical creatures, and wants to target one and only one, specifically... he has a problem.

If you want to spin this as “magical protection” then that’s your business. But it’s “magical protection” in the same way that dangling your helmet behind a barricade to look like a person’s head is “magical protection”.

I suppose that in your games, if my fighter hides behind a 4 foot wall and uses his sword to dangle his helmet into view... and then a wizard casts hold person at the helmet, the spell (1) affects the fighter because he’s the only valid target in the space, or (2) the spell is not cast because a helmet is an object, not a creature, and then perhaps the Wizard gets to choose another action, instead?

I don’t do this. I say the Wizard cast his spell on an invalid target, to no effect, and he loses his spell slot and his action.

Maybe you think I’m crazy, but Xanathar’s Guide seems to validate this.

And hold person; "choose a humanoid you can see within range".

And chain lightning; "You create a bolt of lightning that arcs toward a target of your choice that you can see within range".

And finger of death; "a creature you can see within range".

And feeblemind; "You blast the mind of a creature you can see within range".

Oh, and power word kill! "compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly".

Yep.

In fact, using your clever twist, I can get a lowly 2nd level spell which is specifically designed to defend against attack rolls to ALSO defend against spells which require a saving throw! BurgerBeast FTW!

Scarecrow number three. If your argument is that the spell is too powerful as written, that is a separate point.

We are discussing what the spell says it does. It does what it says, whether you honk think it’s too powerful or not.

I need your help for another thing: magic missile says that it "hits a creature of your choice"; how do I fool my DM into thinking that illusory images are 'creatures'?

Scarecrow 4.

The problem is not the DM’s confusion over what an illusory image is. The problem is the DM needed needs to determine which target the character, in the fiction, is has struck.

We all understand that the character is attempting to strike the real creature, but the character in the fiction doesn’t know which “creature” is the real one. And it is possible to target non-creatures with spells that only affect creatures. So it is possible to accidentally target a duplicate.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Am I caught in a time loop? I could have sworn that we've had this exact thread before, with the same people making the same arguments. And it got locked because it degenerated into a flame war.