The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #811
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Seriously. Elli can't possibly be in a good place mentally to write this stuff.
    I think Elli has written herself into a situation where ANY emotions exist against a backdrop of merciless, unremitting fukced-up evil. At this point in the story, she can't just ignore the existing dystopia...so while I really do want to see Kin and Minmax help each other back from the edge, I know that it will be one flickering ember of hope against a gale-force sħitstorm of horrors.

    If Elli were beginning this story today it might be a different world, but she's clearly determined to finish the story she started. I hope it'll be a happy ending, but the path to that ending will be lined with nightmares.

  2. - Top - End - #812
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    at least we‘ll be happy it ended
    Last edited by Agi Hammerthief; 2019-11-15 at 01:27 AM.
    * my emphasis

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  3. - Top - End - #813
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Well, it's less depressing than Ears mutilating himself and Chief getting sucked back into his hell torture.

    Seriously. Elli can't possibly be in a good place mentally to write this stuff.
    I always find comments about dark stories meaning the author must in a bad place mentally weird. Plenty happy people have written dark stuff. Tending towards gore or morbidity doesn't require some kind of inner darkness. (Also I still think goblin isn't particularly dark. It has always stayed a fairly normal adventure story that is a bit more brutal towards its MCs. Bad things happen but it doesn't dwell on them and much of the darkest stuff is off screen.)

  4. - Top - End - #814
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    I always find comments about dark stories meaning the author must in a bad place mentally weird. Plenty happy people have written dark stuff. Tending towards gore or morbidity doesn't require some kind of inner darkness. (Also I still think goblin isn't particularly dark. It has always stayed a fairly normal adventure story that is a bit more brutal towards its MCs. Bad things happen but it doesn't dwell on them and much of the darkest stuff is off screen.)
    I disagree that anyone who spends such a significant portion of their life drawing gore, or creating characters just to mutilate them is going to end up in a good place mentally. This stuff is depressing just to read. Imagine spending 50 hours per page drawing it.

    On top of that, we already know that Elli has numerous self admitted issues. I genuinely doubt that drawing Goblins is good for her mental health...except that it's her source of income, and I'm sure losing it would be even worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    The Irony here is that she is currently in just about the best mental state she has been in for ages. I do have some thoughts about the connection between various themes of people who lose control of their bodies, like Complains becoming a demon or Dies getting an arm that eventually rebelled though. I might do a reread and look for that kind of stuff.
    Her mental state is constantly up and down. I'm basing that on her own words in the past, not a personal attempt to psychoanalyze a stranger. I sincerely hope that she's worked out her issues and will remain happy this time.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-11-15 at 06:37 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #815
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Im not sure whats confusing about being sad that everyone he cares about seeming to die on him. Kin being the exception its a realistic reaction considering he just left his "brother" forgath to die against kore like, a day ago, and now his buddy vorpal is presumably dead. Its been a rough 24 hours for him. Oh yeah, and dont forget that he had that whole final exchange with kin a couple hours earlier so basically, his emotions must be a wreck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    You're both right. There's nothing confusing about what he's doing, and he isn't doing anything awesome. Sometimes when the scene changes, we jump right into activity (usually conversation), and sometimes we get one of these low-plot-movement establishing shot type things. Compared to some where it is just visuals and no development, this is a step forward -- Min Max thinks his goblin frenemies (including Fumbles/Vorpal, the one that seemed to truly be friendly) are dead, so he's sad.

    On the art side, I hadn't noticed MM's weird sometime-fingered hand-coverings before. I use that term because they are clearly part of the color-changing armor set, and as such should be gauntlets, yet they look more like gloves (modern athletic gloves, to be specific). Not good or bad per se, just notable.
    The confusing part if that he says "Maxo is gone". He's Maxo, Minmax. He's not actually gone, he's right here, saying that he's gone. Kickaxo is gone (well, Minmax thinks he's gone anyway). So that's what I think is confusing. He's declaring himself dead.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2019-11-15 at 08:50 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #816
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    The confusing part if that he says "Maxo is gone". He's Maxo, Minmax. He's not actually gone, he's right here, saying that he's gone. Kickaxo is gone (well, Minmax thinks he's gone anyway). So that's what I think is confusing. He's declaring himself dead.
    that's a typo. someone pointed it out on twitter and Ell admitted that it was an oopsie.
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  7. - Top - End - #817
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    My problem with this, as with the last few depressing pages, is not with the concept but with the execution. Thirteen panels of him processing something that happened. Could have been condensed to 3 or 4. He could be continuing onward and saying some of this to himself. He could be passing by some corpses of someone who died in a horrible way and remarking to himself that all he has around him is death. We could have cut slightly ahead to him finding Kin or someone and being asked if he's alone to which he could say in a teary eyed way that everyone who was with him died.

    I don't mind depressing story beats. I don't mind depressed characters. But I do feel like the pacing falls apart when you stop the story so that you can zoom in on a characters face for 13 panels to let me know he's sad.

  8. - Top - End - #818
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    i wouldn't say 13 panels of him processing this / being sad. the page is clearly split up into three parts.

    First row is him being worried, waiting for Parchment to return with news.

    Second row is him accepting that Parchment didn't find anything and that the goblins are gone.

    Third row is him being sad / processing it all as this adds onto the recent trauma with Forgath.



    This is hardly anything new either. Taking multiple panels to show every step of something is an old staple of the comic. Such as three panels to reload a crossbow An entire page to show it's a long way down and five panels on reloading a crossbow


    Slowing down to look closely at something is just what the comic does, this is nothing new.
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  9. - Top - End - #819
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Typewriter View Post
    My problem with this, as with the last few depressing pages, is not with the concept but with the execution. Thirteen panels of him processing something that happened. Could have been condensed to 3 or 4. He could be continuing onward and saying some of this to himself. He could be passing by some corpses of someone who died in a horrible way and remarking to himself that all he has around him is death. We could have cut slightly ahead to him finding Kin or someone and being asked if he's alone to which he could say in a teary eyed way that everyone who was with him died.

    I don't mind depressing story beats. I don't mind depressed characters. But I do feel like the pacing falls apart when you stop the story so that you can zoom in on a characters face for 13 panels to let me know he's sad.
    Yup, the page should have ended introducing the next happening, be it MM getting up, or hearing a sound, or paperagon flying away after something.

    EDIT: concerning the grim tone of Goblins, I think it's deliberately made like that, and that it doesn't have anything to do with the author's mental health. Sometimes it works, sometimes it really doesn't; you can see the difference between a terrible and very close fight by the hunted and the slaves against the hunters and the slavers (it works) vs the attempt to represent some kind of background all-encompassing evil that feels like someone is trying too hard and looks like an inflatable version of itself (it doesn't work). A few examples of the not-working version: the curse of death and sex; Kin's comment about Evil being winning (which per se isn't too bad, but sinks because of the other parts); and Kore's internal Hyperbolic Torture Time Chamber.
    Last edited by Vinyadan; 2019-11-15 at 12:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  10. - Top - End - #820
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    This page spends time characterizing not only Minmax, but also the paper dragon. I'm fine with that.

  11. - Top - End - #821
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

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    I can't say I enjoyed it. Kin's unjustified enthusiasm for MM's mental faculties immediately gave away what gag it was going for. There also is a huge disconnect between this and the previous page.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  12. - Top - End - #822
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    I'm neutral to him just showing up. I would have liked one or two transition panels myself, but I'm sure I would have disliked a whole page of "Minmax walks through a changing dungeon while talking to himself/the paper dragon" and both of those were equally likely given how this is story tends to be written.
    Last edited by John Cribati; 2019-11-28 at 07:17 AM.

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  13. - Top - End - #823
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

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    Not quite unwarranted I think, she thought it was an super easy puzzle and he realized how to solve it without any trouble. The part he failed at is so stupid that I am unsure whether I should be annoyed or just roll with the hyperbolic joke.

  14. - Top - End - #824
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

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    I think there's some chance this ends up actually being the correct thinking to do and he is rewarded for it

  15. - Top - End - #825
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
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    I think there's some chance this ends up actually being the correct thinking to do and he is rewarded for it
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    I kinda agree. I think he will fail in a way that's good, sort of causing damage to the wall so that it opens for some reason or another.

    In short, I think he will break everything in the best of ways.

  16. - Top - End - #826
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    If they werent meant to be detached he wouldnt have so easily removed them. Also, he forgot to try peeing on it first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
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  17. - Top - End - #827
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    This level of stupidity seems unnecessary, even from Minmax.
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  18. - Top - End - #828
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    well i mean, this is the same who who said "back and fourth, like a pen that cums" or thinking "Theraputic" is pronounced "Sera puked it."


    it's been pretty well-established by now that Minmax is in no way smart. This should under no circumstances be a surprise.
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  19. - Top - End - #829
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Does anyone here actually like this strip?

  20. - Top - End - #830
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    i do. can't think of anything negative to say about it at least.
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  21. - Top - End - #831
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    I think this is another situation where Minmax's player failed an intelligence check. It's not the funniest example in the comic, but it might pay off on the next page. One thing I'm thinking is...
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    the creepy statues might be supposed to come alive and attack when the colors are matched. Granted, I don't know how beheading them beforehand turns that into an interesting situation, but I see some partial options...
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  22. - Top - End - #832
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Some people see fail, where I would see a partial success. That, or copious ammounts of persistance.
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  23. - Top - End - #833
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Also, he forgot to try peeing on it first.
    Kin also forgot, and now she's in trouble.
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    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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  24. - Top - End - #834
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnia View Post
    Does anyone here actually like this strip?
    I am still an enthusiastic fan, and I think particular joke was actually super funny and very on brand for minmax while still not being entirely predictable.
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  25. - Top - End - #835
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnia View Post
    Does anyone here actually like this strip?
    I've always liked it, and still do. I think it's delightfully, if slightly heavy-handedly, dark. I'm sorta iffy on the mutilations, but otherwise, I feel this may be the best webcomic out there. And that's saying something, because I'm picky on the art, and it's far from the best drawn comic available. Well, nor is it the worst, I guess.

  26. - Top - End - #836
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnia View Post
    Does anyone here actually like this strip?
    Do you mean this page, or the comic in general?

    For the latter, I like it in all the wrong ways.
    It's captivating and it makes me feel a lot of things. Mostly frustration or mockery (not the intended sadness or laughter), but those are valid feelings too. What captivates me most is how good it could be. Elli obviously has plenty of drawing skill, but she uses it on micromanaging blood splatter instead of of making feet not look like potato sacks. Similarly, she's obviously well-aware of the importance of emotions, but throws it in my face like emotions are confetti.
    I think the comic could be very good in all the right ways, but it always takes a turn into very bad whenever I least expect it. And that is very interesting.

    So, yeah. I hate this comic, but I'm excited about every new page, it makes me think, and it makes me feel things - which I think is enough to make me a fan. Can you be a hate-fan of things?
    GRIM ESSENCES - a story about silly people in a gloomy setting; a world bound by Plato-esque rules of perception, where wizards roam free, Gods are servants of mankind, and being a plunderer is a valid career choice. Amidst dangers and mysteries of dubious credibility, heroes and villains alike struggle to shape the world to their liking.

  27. - Top - End - #837
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    This dungeon is not Minmax-proof.

    Also just me but Kin looking kinda fugly here? Her neck and arms just look too thin compared to her head or something.
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    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  28. - Top - End - #838
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    I like the 3 plot premises, but I don't always like how it is handled, but that is how I feel about most things.

  29. - Top - End - #839
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    I like the concept and enjoy some of the characters. Big Ears is one of the most compelling Paladin characters I've seen so far. I also like the general group dynamic, both in the GAP and with Minmax and Forgath.

    I, too, could do with less mutilation.

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  30. - Top - End - #840
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    Default Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnia View Post
    Does anyone here actually like this strip?
    I like the comic in general but feel like the progression of it has been really weird. The art has grown immensely but at a serious detriment to anything regarding productivity. And it's only really the art that's improved. I feel like the story telling has always had pacing issues and a strange disconnected way of expositing information. Combine that with the disjointed 'arcs' that just sort of wind up shoved together and the whole thing feels really weird at times - especially considering the fact that it's all occurred within a relatively short period of time. It also feels really repetitive at times with this cycle of mutilation, dungeon crawl, split the party, regroup, repeat. Or something along those lines - it all just blurs together and I feel like the story has consisted of Brassmoon city and one massive dungeon.

    That all being said I like the characters and the story. I think there have been problems but most of those problems are with pacing or unnecessary melodrama. The dungeons and concepts are clever even if it's almost always over explained, under explained, or dragged out.

    As far as this particular page goes I enjoyed it but think it could have been combined with the previous page for better effect. He could have been lamenting everyone dying while 'solving' the puzzle and wound up having his moment with the familiar then after he fails and realizes that everyone he knows dies and he can't even solve a simple puzzle on his own.

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