Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[Anteros]

Just imagine how cool and moving of a moment this would be for the comic and character if it wasn't already considered par for the course going into it. Like, if Roy had to permanently maim himself in OoTs to save the day it would be huge. Instead we just sort of expect people to maim themselves to be able to wear a hat.

Yeah, it's a character defining moment that's greatly overshadowed because we all saw it coming a month ago since the author will basically never pass up an opportunity to draw mutilation and gore.

[Draconi Redfir]

honestly i kinda just figured that Goblin heads and Human heads were both roughly the same size...



Mmm... width-wise maybe. Minmax does seem to have a taller head then most of them. Only exception being Complains.

[Agi Hammerthief]

Yeah, it's a character defining moment that's greatly overshadowed because we all saw it coming a month ago since the author will basically never pass up an opportunity to draw mutilation and gore.

I had sorta hoped that was mainly a Thunt issue and Ellie would tone down on things.

[Durkoala]

I've been following Goblins for a while and this is honestly the first time one of the mutilations has really made me uncomfortable. I'm still not sure if it's because it's self-inflicted, if it's just the type of gore or, like the person above me said, because it's ultimately so Ears can wear a hat.

[Keltest]

I had sorta hoped that was mainly a Thunt issue and Ellie would tone down on things.

In this case, I think the pacing and dramatic timing of this is far more of a problem than the act itself. Its IMO a little bit contrived that it was necessary to use a dungeon gimmick of all things.

[tomaO2]

Thunt is a pen name anyway. It's like getting mad because you say Mark Twain instead of Samuel Langhorne Clemens, or calling Rich the Giant, and plenty of authors have had multiple pen names. We all know who is being talked about. No one is meaning any offence, it's not deadnaming, as I understand the concept. Does it really matter? It's kinda hard to keep remembering it unless I'm seeing it a lot.

I don't even understand why she felt the need to change it. Causes needless confusion.

A cruel GM with no interest in playing fair?

Honestly, I feel it's more likely that you could keep using it after someone else has done so. So Complains and Thaco could possibly keep trading off between each other. Alternatively, there might be a timer. You can only use it once per hour or something.

Unfortunately, there is no real way to test this beforehand.

[Typewriter]

I've been following Goblins for a while and this is honestly the first time one of the mutilations has really made me uncomfortable. I'm still not sure if it's because it's self-inflicted, if it's just the type of gore or, like the person above me said, because it's ultimately so Ears can wear a hat.

Well, to be fair, it was a very nice hat.

Kidding, of course. And to be honest I'm not personally 'uncomfortable' with it. More just... disappointed. I mean, it's one thing for me to not care because I'm desensitized to the comics obsession with treating the characters like trash but it feels as if the story doesn't even care. It happened but was of so low importance that it was the second half of a page all about how Kore is able to masquerade as a Paladin. Everything just happens so slowly (and I'm not just talking about the release schedule - it's the number of pages that it takes to do every little thing and then it just winds up being pointless. About fifteen pages of finding the Golem and fighting Kore (again) and it's all just to maim one character and tell us that Kore is torturing souls inside of himself.

I don't know, I'm just whining at this point.

[John Cribati]

Thunt is a pen name anyway.

It's the first letter of her old first name concatenated onto her old last name.

Had she not transitioned, it would be about as much of a "pen name" as J. R. R. Tolkien or J. K. Rowling.

[Vinyadan]

Well, while this is a gory page, I think that the gore is still in the backseat compared to other scenes, and I like this. I mean, compared to those scenes about people staring into their death without any chance to act. Now sure, one can object that this is the wrong way to put gore in the backseat, but it still better fits my tastes.

It's probably not going to happen during the run of Goblins, but it's possible to depict a scene like this without actually depicting the gore. I wonder how much of Goblins could have been "sanitised" without losing steam. Goblins isn't really epic fantasy, it also isn't drama nor a parody. It has had elements of all of these genres, but it's actually a horror comic. Its general mood can be compared to the bleakness of e.g. Night of the Living Dead (and the backlash it received*). So it needs some, well, horror and gore. But this scene isn't meant to cause horror, I think. It's more of a Gothic/medieval scene with the apparition of a loved dead giving guidance and asking for help.

*One reason why Night of the Living Dead was panned was that its content was unexpected, because, until then, horror films were normally watched by little children and were "funny scary". Goblins first deceives the reader into thinking it's a parody of RPG tropes, then goes dirt biking into Guinea Pig territory.


I am now wondering about how Goblin ears function. They never had holes in them, right?

[Draconi Redfir]

I am now wondering about how Goblin ears function. They never had holes in them, right?

Ell mentioned it on twitter. he can still hear fine, as those were effectively just really big earlobes. things might be a little fuzzy though.

And hey, remember Dies Horribly's arm, Kin's tail, and Complains' hand? Track record suggests he'll get some form of replacement eventually. magical, mechanical, or otherwise.

[Dragonus45]

like i just said, not every magic item re-sizes.

even if this helmet does, it could easily be a case of it re-sizing to fit a small creature, but because of his big ears, his head isn't appropriately small-sized.

I could easily see helmets not fitting or needing to be one size larger as a character flaw one could take at creation considering minmax's character sheet. Actually I can think of other games where that actually is a downside like Pillars of Eternity.

[Morgaln]

I think this post (made on September 29 on the Goblins fan forum) is relevant to some of the discussion above:

Digging this back up, since this is the place to relay important information for those who don't read Twitter.

Today is Elli's birthday! :confetti: :confetti: :confetti:

However, today also marks the day that, as she's said a few times on Twitter, it is no longer acceptable to her to use her old "dead names." Tarol, Hunt, and Thunt are all in the past. She's Elli Stephens now, and will be using that name both personally and professionally. The old names are part of a chapter of her life that's closed now. Please respect that.

Whether you want to respect her wishes or not is of course up to everyone individually.

[Lissou]

I know I've already said it twice in this thread, but I still believe that the helmet does resize to fit the wearer's head. And it does fit Ear's head, as proven by the fact he can wear the helmet fine without his ears in the way. The resizing just doesn't adapt to giant earlobes, presumably because the creator didn't think to make a case-by-case exception to the rule for them.

[Morgaln]

I know I've already said it twice in this thread, but I still believe that the helmet does resize to fit the wearer's head. And it does fit Ear's head, as proven by the fact he can wear the helmet fine without his ears in the way. The resizing just doesn't adapt to giant earlobes, presumably because the creator didn't think to make a case-by-case exception to the rule for them.

Elli herself said on twitter that not all magic items resize. While she doesn't directly say the helmet doesn't resize, it is heavily implied from context.

[John Cribati]

Maybe it's like a "realistic" version of the Oots art style where head sizes are about the same between humanoids (or, at least, Medium and Small humanoids) and the difference in size is entirely due to body proportions.

[Keltest]

Whether or not its plausible in-universe for this specific item to not change size is, I think, beside the point. Its a moment where the stage setting got caught in the shot. It takes us out of the story by making us go "oh, right, this is a work of fiction being written to fill the writer's specific desire." It makes the doyalistic reason for the event happening more visible than the watsonian reason. That's generally not a good thing to do while actively telling the story.

[Draconi Redfir]

Whether or not its plausible in-universe for this specific item to not change size is, I think, beside the point. Its a moment where the stage setting got caught in the shot. It takes us out of the story by making us go "oh, right, this is a work of fiction being written to fill the writer's specific desire." It makes the doyalistic reason for the event happening more visible than the watsonian reason. That's generally not a good thing to do while actively telling the story.

really? how so?

personally i think it would have been more separating to have this helmet that is clearly made of some kind of metal, somehow grow in size to fit one person's spesific comically oversized ears.

[Keltest]

really? how so?

personally i think it would have been more separating to have this helmet that is clearly made of some kind of metal, somehow grow in size to fit one person's spesific comically oversized ears.

Because we've already had magic items fit people they weren't made for. Minmax's armor, various magical doodads picked up in that one alternate reality dungeon whose name I cant recall, etc... "The loot just fits" is such a staple of fantasy works, and D&D in particular, that I wouldn't think it needs explaining. Also, its explicitly magic. A resizing helmet isn't any more unusual than one that lets you control a stone statue.

[Radar]

Because we've already had magic items fit people they weren't made for. Minmax's armor, various magical doodads picked up in that one alternate reality dungeon whose name I cant recall, etc... "The loot just fits" is such a staple of fantasy works, and D&D in particular, that I wouldn't think it needs explaining. Also, its explicitly magic. A resizing helmet isn't any more unusual than one that lets you control a stone statue.

Ironically, the reason for resizing magic items is very doylist, since conforming to player characters was the sole reason of introducing it. It just became so integrated with any game setting that we almost take it for granted. From the in-setting perspective it looks quite different: magic items are valuable, so they are never mass-produced. More often then not, they are made for specific users (either comissioned by wealthy people or made for oneself or fellow adventurers). If made for sale, it would still be made most likely with a specific type of humanoid users in mind. Would elves ever made an item that could be used by both themselves and for example halflings? If they knew significant enough halfling, they would make an item specifically for that person.

Nobody makes items to misplace them in random dungeons and think of who might stumble across them a few centuries later. Even moreso, noone would go to additional efforts to accomodate those random strangers. The only possible reason for resizing equipment would be inteligent creatures with significant transformation abilities. How many species do we have that fit the bill? Could they be responsible for vast majority of magic item production?

[Draconi Redfir]

Minmax's armor is likely designed to fit any general Human, maybe even Elves or Dwarves with some adjustment of straps and bindings. We don't even know for sure if that armor was designed to fit female humans, it may specifically be designed for human males, we don't know.

Even if that's not the case, i'm sure the armor wouldn't conveniently fit if Minmax had say, four arms, or a pair of wings sprouting from his back. He'd at the very least need to modify it in order to accommodate his needs, which is something Big-ears just can't do with a solid metal helmet.

I severely doubt that his armor would conveniently fit the tall blue Minmax or the Nianderthal Minmax.

[Keltest]

Minmax's armor is likely designed to fit any general Human, maybe even Elves or Dwarves with some adjustment of straps and bindings. We don't even know for sure if that armor was designed to fit female humans, it may specifically be designed for human males, we don't know.

Even if that's not the case, i'm sure the armor wouldn't conveniently fit if Minmax had say, four arms, or a pair of wings sprouting from his back. He'd at the very least need to modify it in order to accommodate his needs, which is something Big-ears just can't do with a solid metal helmet.

I severely doubt that his armor would conveniently fit the tall blue Minmax or the Nianderthal Minmax.

Armor, especially any sort of plate armor, doesn't work like that. It needs to be specially fitted to the wearer in order to not be excessively encumbering and immobilizing. While there is a small degree of flexibility, there isn't any way to design plate to fit a "general human".

[Draconi Redfir]

So you'll believe armor that can shape-shift to conveniently fit whoever puts it on, but can't believe armor that's just designed to fit a general body shape?

[Traab]

Because we've already had magic items fit people they weren't made for. Minmax's armor, various magical doodads picked up in that one alternate reality dungeon whose name I cant recall, etc... "The loot just fits" is such a staple of fantasy works, and D&D in particular, that I wouldn't think it needs explaining. Also, its explicitly magic. A resizing helmet isn't any more unusual than one that lets you control a stone statue.

We have also had them NOT fit properly before this. Its been pretty openly hit or miss on what items will resize to fit people. If this was the first time a magic item didnt fit somebody you would have a legit reason to complain about how contrived it is. It still IS contrived, (really everything is of course) but its at least working with established rules of the setting.

[Vinyadan]

I was rereading a bit, and I noticed some callbacks/foreshadowing/trivia.

Using the anymug for damage: http://goblinscomic.com/comic/04242006

How were you people not wiped out: http://goblinscomic.com/comic/12222006 and http://goblinscomic.com/comic/04032017-2

Ears blindly throwing himself into the fires of hell, as he later says he wants to literally do: http://goblinscomic.com/comic/01122007

Thaco's mysterious time away from the clan (he also didn't want to talk to Names about his mother) http://goblinscomic.com/comic/07142006

Ears is gay, but he has his standards: http://goblinscomic.com/comic/08052006

Listen Chief, if a madman were torturing you to death, would you want us to try and save you? http://goblinscomic.com/comic/04162007

[archon_huskie]

Just imagine how cool and moving of a moment this would be for the comic and character if it wasn't already considered par for the course going into it. Like, if Roy had to permanently maim himself in OoTs to save the day it would be huge. Instead we just sort of expect people to maim themselves to be able to wear a hat.

Yeah, it's a character defining moment that's greatly overshadowed because we all saw it coming a month ago since the author will basically never pass up an opportunity to draw mutilation and gore.

One of features of Goblins since the beginning is that every battle changes the artwork a little. Every battles matters and has an impact on the characters.

The downside to this is that every battle changes the artwork and has an impact on the characters.

And when each battle has the potential to horribly mutilate a character, it's just not as shocking after several mutilations.

[Lissou]

Elli herself said on twitter that not all magic items resize. While she doesn't directly say the helmet doesn't resize, it is heavily implied from context.

Oh, I missed that, thanks!

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I was rereading a bit, and I noticed some callbacks/foreshadowing/trivia.

Ears is gay, but he has his standards: http://goblinscomic.com/comic/08052006

And a few pages later (that guy takes his time getting dressed), can objects be evil? (and detected as such):
http://goblinscomic.com/comic/08122006

[-D-]

And when each battle has the potential to horribly mutilate a character, it's just not as shocking after several mutilations.

Reminds me of what a friend told me about Lord of the rings RPG. After awhile, everyone ends up looking less like Fellowship of the rings, and more like a Band of Peg Leg pirates.

[Kislath]

He couldn't fit the helmet over his ears, so he had to cut them off.

OH! Okay. Now I get it. Thanks.

[Ibrinar]

Nobody makes items to misplace them in random dungeons and think of who might stumble across them a few centuries later. Even moreso, noone would go to additional efforts to accomodate those random strangers. The only possible reason for resizing equipment would be inteligent creatures with significant transformation abilities. How many species do we have that fit the bill? Could they be responsible for vast majority of magic item production?

Magic armors are presumably big projects, preparing for it to be passed down a royal family line or a line of champions makes perfect sense if they are made to last a long time. The question is more how hard that is to do, if it was easy there is little reason not to add it. (also you don't need to spend time fitting it to the first wearer and can just size it any way you want.) But shape changing items doesn't sound like trivial magic so it is a setting decision whether adding it is reasonable or a great challenge or insane.