Sand Giant Swordsage?

[danielxcutter]

Okaaay... so I thought a Desert Wind/Stone Dragon focused Swordsage would be thematic for a Sand Giant(it still is)... but well, is it just me or are they a bit *too* good at being Swordsages? I mean seriously, +10 Dex, +6 Wis, AND +11 natural armor, and that's not even counting the (Su) Heat Shimmer... so uh, got anything for that? I tried to make one with 6 levels, PC wealth, and 32-point buy, and I'm actually having trouble putting stats so she *wouldn't* have crazy AC.

Thoughts?

[OgresAreCute]

Okaaay... so I thought a Desert Wind/Stone Dragon focused Swordsage would be thematic for a Sand Giant(it still is)... but well, is it just me or are they a bit *too* good at being Swordsages? I mean seriously, +10 Dex, +6 Wis, AND +11 natural armor, and that's not even counting the (Su) Heat Shimmer... so uh, got anything for that? I tried to make one with 6 levels, PC wealth, and 32-point buy, and I'm actually having trouble putting stats so she *wouldn't* have crazy AC.

Thoughts?

Assuming this is a PC, a Sand Giant Swordsage 6 would be ECL 15 (RHD) + 4 (LA) + 6 (Swordsage) = 25. I don't think having +11 natural armor is "crazy AC" when you're well into epic levels. If this is an NPC it would be CR 10 + 6 (associated class levels) = 16, and it should use the elite array and NPC wealth, not 32 point buy and PC wealth.

[liquidformat]

Just due to the fact that this thing has 15 rhd it will seem under powered in any epic level campaign even if you drop the 4 LA so go wild with the 'crazy' ac, in fact I would suggest trying to make it crazier...

[danielxcutter]

Assuming this is a PC, a Sand Giant Swordsage 6 would be ECL 15 (RHD) + 4 (LA) + 6 (Swordsage) = 25. I don't think having +11 natural armor is "crazy AC" when you're well into epic levels. If this is an NPC it would be CR 10 + 6 (associated class levels) = 16, and it should use the elite array and NPC wealth, not 32 point buy and PC wealth.

Just due to the fact that this thing has 15 rhd it will seem under powered in any epic level campaign even if you drop the 4 LA so go wild with the 'crazy' ac, in fact I would suggest trying to make it crazier...

It's for an NPC. The PC wealth part is actually isn't a problem - I believe NPCs with PC wealth get a +1 to their CR, no? As for the 32 point-buy... well, I've always thought that the elite array is a bit restrictive and I got advice in the past to use point buy same as the PCs, though perhaps that was intended about NPCs with actual PC-type builds. But the thing is, that's not even the main reason... a 13 in Wis and 12 in Dex still gets her AC up to 30, leaving little room for armor or other AC-boosting items at all - I never had that problem with the previous versions, which used a Fire Giant 6th-level Swordsage and a Stone Giant 8th-level Swordsage.

What *do* I do?

[Zaq]

So the problem is that it's too strong? You've got three major ways to go.

1) Make stupider choices. Fight unarmored, use abilities that penalize AC, or whatever. This is likely a bad choice overall because it strains credulity and doesn't feel honest.

2) Just straight up lower the stats. Shave off HD, lowering BAB/HP/IL in the process. Reduce the stat total. Take fewer levels in your desired class (kind of like raising the LA, only LA doesn't directly apply to NPCs). Just make a weaker version of the critter.

3) If you genuinely think that the numbers outpace the CR, then leave the numbers the same but assign it what you feel is an appropriate CR. Treat all aspects of the CR (including PC XP/GP rewards for overcoming the challenge) appropriately. It's okay to have strong monsters in the world as long as you treat them like strong monsters and recognize that they're going to take a lot out of PCs of a lower effective level. Maybe the party has to find a way to negotiate with the giant instead of just charging in with swords drawn. Maybe they need to shift the environment to more favorable conditions. Maybe they need to not engage until they're stronger. Maybe the party can win but just shouldn't be expected to fight a lot of other level-appropriate challenges on the same batch of daily resources.

[Kish]

I am more than slightly thrown by your going from "it's too powerful" to "using the elite array is a bit restrictive." The elite array is for elite NPCs; if this is not supposed to be an extraordinary character who is inherently far more powerful than its siblings and acquaintances, then it should have the equivalent of 15 point buy. The only reason to give PCs high point buys is to make them remarkable people; if every creature in your world has the same point buy, then that point buy is "completely ordinary" in your world, the equivalent of 15 point buy or rolling 3d6 six times. If everyone has 32 point buy (or 20, 50, any number at all as long as it's the same number for the PCs as for Random Goblin Warrior #17), then you should expect your campaign to be as difficult as one where you gave the PCs 15 point buy. Everyone having high numbers may give your PCs the illusion of being powerful, but it's 100% illusion.

Beyond that, however, AC 30 is not especially high for a creature with a CR of 17 or higher, particularly one that by default has Dexterity as their second highest stat. A level 17 fighter is hitting them on a 13 before Strength modifier or magical equipment. The default, CR 10, 15 Point Buy and equipment limited to an ordinary scimitar and masterwork studded leather, sand giant has an AC of 28. If anything, the problem will be that this creature doesn't actually provide an appreciable challenge for a party of level 17 characters. I take it they gain access to fifth-level maneuvers with their first swordsage level (the fifteen levels of giant counting half as standard).

I recognize that you're going to wind up with something higher than 30 AC, but with the conflicting approaches I'm not sure what you're aiming for.

[AnimeTheCat]

So first off, if you're the DM you can basically just put the stats on the page and that is the way it is.

Secondly, if you dont like option 1, then use different point buys or arrays.

Thirdly, break down the race, since the race is 15 RHD make it 15 levels and grant the various state increases across the levels, a la savage species.

Try those things to achieve your desired power level.

[Nifft]

It's for an NPC. The PC wealth part is actually isn't a problem - I believe NPCs with PC wealth get a +1 to their CR, no? As for the 32 point-buy... well, I've always thought that the elite array is a bit restrictive and I got advice in the past to use point buy same as the PCs, though perhaps that was intended about NPCs with actual PC-type builds. But the thing is, that's not even the main reason... a 13 in Wis and 12 in Dex still gets her AC up to 30, leaving little room for armor or other AC-boosting items at all - I never had that problem with the previous versions, which used a Fire Giant 6th-level Swordsage and a Stone Giant 8th-level Swordsage.

What *do* I do?

If it's for an NPC, then there are no rules, only guidelines.

Most of the later monster books seem intended to provide off-the-shelf usable threats, not building blocks. So you may want to unwind the RHD a bit before building upon them.

What you can do is remove some racial HD and replace them with Swordsage levels (fewer levels than the monster's CR), or just grant Swordsage abilities -- up to (CR-1) if it's got nothing special otherwise, or (CR-2) if it has a bunch of solid racial abilities, or (CR-3) if it's got top-tier defenses like a Rakshasa.

[Crake]

I am more than slightly thrown by your going from "it's too powerful" to "using the elite array is a bit restrictive." The elite array is for elite NPCs; if this is not supposed to be an extraordinary character who is inherently far more powerful than its siblings and acquaintances, then it should have the equivalent of 15 point buy. The only reason to give PCs high point buys is to make them remarkable people; if every creature in your world has the same point buy, then that point buy is "completely ordinary" in your world, the equivalent of 15 point buy or rolling 3d6 six times. If everyone has 32 point buy (or 20, 50, any number at all as long as it's the same number for the PCs as for Random Goblin Warrior #17), then you should expect your campaign to be as difficult as one where you gave the PCs 15 point buy. Everyone having high numbers may give your PCs the illusion of being powerful, but it's 100% illusion.

Assuming this is a PC, a Sand Giant Swordsage 6 would be ECL 15 (RHD) + 4 (LA) + 6 (Swordsage) = 25. I don't think having +11 natural armor is "crazy AC" when you're well into epic levels. If this is an NPC it would be CR 10 + 6 (associated class levels) = 16, and it should use the elite array and NPC wealth, not 32 point buy and PC wealth.

Actually, the elite array is for NPCs when the PCs are using the "standard" 25 point buy (because hey, what do you know, the elite array equals a 25 point buy array!), and makes creating NPCs easier, by just using an array rather than having to allocate points or roll dice to generate ability scores. It's made for streamlining NPCs who are on par with the players. If the players however, are using 32 point buy, the "elite array" should be increased to reflect that, or barring that, the DM can just use 32 point buy on the NPCs instead.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's for an NPC. The PC wealth part is actually isn't a problem - I believe NPCs with PC wealth get a +1 to their CR, no? As for the 32 point-buy... well, I've always thought that the elite array is a bit restrictive and I got advice in the past to use point buy same as the PCs, though perhaps that was intended about NPCs with actual PC-type builds. But the thing is, that's not even the main reason... a 13 in Wis and 12 in Dex still gets her AC up to 30, leaving little room for armor or other AC-boosting items at all - I never had that problem with the previous versions, which used a Fire Giant 6th-level Swordsage and a Stone Giant 8th-level Swordsage.

What *do* I do?

Acknowledge that he doesn't need to spend any gold on armor or other AC items? If you want armor special abilities, put 'em on a set of +1 bracers of armor.

AC in the low 30s is entirely appropriate for the CR 16~17 that this creature would be. Maybe even a little low for a brawler type.

[Kish]

Actually, the elite array is for NPCs when the PCs are using the "standard" 25 point buy (because hey, what do you know, the elite array equals a 25 point buy array!), and makes creating NPCs easier, by just using an array rather than having to allocate points or roll dice to generate ability scores. It's made for streamlining NPCs who are on par with the players.

Who are on par with the players. Yes. Which most should not be. Or there wouldn't be a nonelite array and the elite array wouldn't be called "elite."

(The elite array also equals the average result of 4d6 drop lowest.)

The elite array is: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. While the monster has one weakness compared to a typical member of its race, it is significantly better overall.[...]

The nonelite array is: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race.

[Crake]

Who are on par with the players. Yes. Which most should not be. Or there wouldn't be a nonelite array and the elite array wouldn't be called "elite."

(The elite array also equals the average result of 4d6 drop lowest.)

Elite NPCs are supposed to be on par with players, at least in terms of ability scores, since as you pointed out, in practically every way the elite array is equal to a standard ability score generation method. If you increase the player's ability score generation method, the NPCs should also increase accordingly, otherwise you're artificially decreasing the power of everything in the world without reducing the xp players get. They should be behind players in gear only.

[AnimeTheCat]

Elite NPCs should have similar or the same ability scores as the PCs and should also have PC Class Levels (as opposed to NPC Class Levels). They represent the most direct opposition to the PCs in the form of Bosses, Elite Soldiers, Leaders, Rivals, and other similarly powerful characters.

In a standard game, Elite NPCs should be made using the same standards that the PCs use. In a game where the party is meant to feel high-power, the PCs should you more lenient standards, or be given additional resources than Elite NPCs. In a game where the party is meant to feel less powerful than their environment, they should have more strict standards, or be given less resources than Elite NPCs.

If your game is supposed to have Elite NPCs on equal footing as PCs, make them the same way you would make PCs. If your Elite NPCs are supposed to be stronger or weaker than the PCs, adjust accordingly.