Theory: Either way, the cycle will end

[Cikomyr]

If the Dark One helps save this world, the cycle ends.

If this world ends, the next one will have the Dark One having a helping hand in its creation. The next prison will hold, the cycle ends.

[Quebbster]

I don't Think Elan would Count the World ending as a happy ending for him. He does seem to care quite a bit about it.

[Cikomyr]

I don't Think Elan would Count the World ending as a happy ending for him. He does seem to care quite a bit about it.

Unless he knows the next world will have lots of happy people forever living in safety from the Snarl?

Elan will have a happy ending if.. he feels he has a happy ending. He is narrative-obsessed.

[Kish]

And so he will only agree that the story has a happy ending (remember, that's what he actually asked) if it has a classically happy ending, not if someone spins the destruction of the world, the death of everyone in it, and the condemnation of the souls of every living dwarf to slavery under Hel, as happy.

[hroþila]

Unless he knows the next world will have lots of happy people forever living in safety from the Snarl?

Elan will have a happy ending if.. he feels he has a happy ending. He is narrative-obsessed.

Which, in my opinion, makes it less likely that something like this would work: narratively speaking, "world ends, every mortal character dies" would not normally be considered a happy ending.

edit: Kish'd.

[BaronOfHell]

If the Dark One helps save this world, the cycle ends.

If this world ends, the next one will have the Dark One having a helping hand in its creation. The next prison will hold, the cycle ends.

The quoted text, and that for those who have only read the web comic TDO hasn't appeared much, makes me guess that neither of those scenarios in the quote will happen.

[Quebbster]

Also, if the World ends now, Goblin Dan probably won't make his first million gold pieces.
(Yes, I know we see the business thriving in Gobbotopia later).

[Synesthesy]

If the Dark One helps save this world, the cycle ends.

If this world ends, the next one will have the Dark One having a helping hand in its creation. The next prison will hold, the cycle ends.

Maybe, or maybe not.

Maybe not all Gods want the Dark One to help, maybe they would prefer to kill or exile him, while keeping the things how they are. People are afraid of changing, a god can be too. Probably the majority of them doesn't trust the Dark One, and Thor's plan will work forcing them to cooperate with the new, purple guy.

[The Pilgrim]

If the Dark One helps save this world, the cycle ends.

If this world ends, the next one will have the Dark One having a helping hand in its creation. The next prison will hold, the cycle ends.

Except if, for example, the IFCC plan is to dump the Snarl into the demi-planes where the Gods are hidding, and have them all slaughtered.

[Linneris]

It may be true. But, as the Giant pointed out before, the comic is called "Order of the Stick", not "Saving the World". If the story ended with everyone dying and the four pantheon's making a new world that contained the Snarl forever, we would be sad that the Order failed in its quest, not glad that the long-term survival of the cosmos was assured.

[Cikomyr]

It may be true. But, as the Giant pointed out before, the comic is called "Order of the Stick", not "Saving the World". If the story ended with everyone dying and the four pantheon's making a new world that contained the Snarl forever, we would be sad that the Order failed in its quest, not glad that the long-term survival of the cosmos was assured.

Oh, agreed. I didnt meant to express that "the world is destroyed and the Snarl is contained forever" to be a desirable outcome. I may have posted something like that earlier in the thread, but i came to realize my mistake.

I only meant that.. the cycle is close at hand, either way.

[Rrmcklin]

If the Dark One helps save this world, the cycle ends.

If this world ends, the next one will have the Dark One having a helping hand in its creation. The next prison will hold, the cycle ends.

Probably. But one of those isn't actually good for the people of this world, and thus is much less likely to happen.

[Rynael]

Strange as it may be to say in this context, I don't consider the Dark One to be that important.

Narratively speaking.

He's a character we've seen purely in exposition, as a satellite character to Redcloak. Even when Jirix talked about him, it was largely in relation to Redcloak's achievements (Gobbotopia) and goals (the Plan). So this revelation, as I see it, isn't about the Dark One—it's about Redcloak. It doesn't change anything he's done, and book commentary implies he's currently more determined to kill the Order of the Stick than ever before, but it might change what they will have to do when they meet him, and how he will react to that, and so on. It poses a whole new plot thread.

What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why.

This isn't strictly "in the rift," but I feel like it falls under the same clause. I believe that, in some way, this will change who is willing to kill whom and why—specifically, which mortals.

[jwhouk]

If TDO and the Gods defeat the Snarl, the world won't be destroyed - or could be easily repaired at the rifts. Heck, the rifts could lead to other worlds left for dead by the Snarl. There won't be an "end to the cycle" - it'll be a new beginning.

[Goblin_Priest]

If the Dark One helps save this world, the cycle ends.

If this world ends, the next one will have the Dark One having a helping hand in its creation. The next prison will hold, the cycle ends.

Both of these assume that the Dark One is about to collaborate with the rest of the pantheons without creating more snarls.

Also worth mentioning that the world did have 4 colors in the past, and failed to get along, and paid the price. TDO's essence comes from the rejection of the others... not the easiest type to get along with, probably. Goblin-Trump?

[DeliaP]

With this comic, my willingness to believe the "Ascended Gods die at the end of their World" has gone up significantly.

We now have near certainty that both TDO and Dvalin ascended from this world.

And now I think it's unlikely that Ascended Gods are something new to this world, because Thor doesn't say something like "this time's something's different. In this world, there are NEW gods, and one of them is a NEW colour". He doesn't treat the fact that there are new gods, of which TDO is only one, as even worth commenting on. It's the fact that there is a new colour that is what is different about this world.

At the same time, we don't seem to have enough other Ascended Gods (even if we include the Elven gods, and the possibility that some other gods we have seen like Thrym, Surtur are Ascended from past worlds) from the huge number of past worlds, if Ascended Gods from past worlds survived. (Although there is the possibility that Ascended Gods from the past rarely have any role to play in the new worlds, and spend their time hanging around playing Go Fish until a world gets created with talking ponies or whatever.)

But, if Ascended Gods happen fairly frequently, but don't survive the end of their world, and in all of the past worlds this is the first time any Ascended God has been a new colour then two things follow: TDO's Plan B is screwed (which TDO doesn't realise); and Thor's still-to-be-announced plan has to take place in THIS world before it is destroyed, because TDO won't be around, and the new colour will be lost possibly forever.

And that makes Thor's reference in #1140 to this possibly being a "once-in-eternity opportunity" to fix things make sense. After all, as the OP points out, if TDO survives this world, then he's available to make the next world (and the next after that) with four colours anyway.

[Kish]

And that makes Thor's reference in #1140 to this possibly being a "once-in-eternity opportunity" to fix things make sense. After all, as the OP points out, if TDO survives this world, then he's available to make the next world (and the next after that) with four colours anyway.

The only significance of four colors is that it's the same number of colors as the Snarl. I suspect fixing things involves this world not being destroyed, not all the people on this world dying in book seven, not patching the Snarl's prison and making some kind of "and after it finally inevitably breaks out in another few hundred years, then we'll make a prison that can really contain it, long after OotS is over!" statement. If the Snarl doesn't destroy this world then there is no "next."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The only significance of four colors is that it's the same number of colors as the Snarl. I suspect fixing things involves this world not being destroyed, not all the people on this world dying in book seven, not patching the Snarl's prison and making some kind of "and after it finally inevitably breaks out in another few hundred years, then we'll make a prison that can really contain it, long after OotS is over!" statement. If the Snarl doesn't destroy this world then there is no "next."

Yes, from a story perspective, that it indeed the statement being made. But from a God PoV, if the DO was going to survive the cycle, it would be easier to knock over this sand castle, since the tide is already lapping at it, and build the next one with the DO, and thus make it out of concrete*. Which is unlikely to be the direction the story will take, so the "ascended gods don't survive the cycle" now explains two things: why there aren't more ascended gods laying around from the previous billion worlds, and why "destroy this world and build the next one with four colours" won't be a valid solution.

Grey Wolf

*For the purposes of this tortured metaphor, concrete cannot be destroyed by the rising tide that is the Snarl

[Cikomyr]

Well, so much for that idea. :-P

[Synesthesy]

Yes, from a story perspective, that it indeed the statement being made. But from a God PoV, if the DO was going to survive the cycle, it would be easier to knock over this sand castle, since the tide is already lapping at it, and build the next one with the DO, and thus make it out of concrete*. Which is unlikely to be the direction the story will take, so the "ascended gods don't survive the cycle" now explains two things: why there aren't more ascended gods laying around from the previous billion worlds, and why "destroy this world and build the next one with four colours" won't be a valid solution.

Grey Wolf

*For the purposes of this tortured metaphor, concrete cannot be destroyed by the rising tide that is the Snarl

It said also a third and a fourth thing: third, that Gods cannot share power one between another even inside their own pantheon, otherwise they would have saved every ascended god they liked (and we know that every ascend god was part of a pantheon, or they would have had an original quiddity before the Dark One) and none with an ally would have died, specially good ones. Fourth, that the bet and Loki's plan are actually worse than we thought, because if Hel stays without enough power (she doesn't have neither worship, nor dedication nor souls, even if she had belief) she could die
Is maybe this the only way to kill a God from the inside without risk?

[5a Violista]

It said also a third and a fourth thing: third, that Gods cannot share power one between another even inside their own pantheon, otherwise they would have saved every ascended god they liked (and we know that every ascend god was part of a pantheon, or they would have had an original quiddity before the Dark One) and none with an ally would have died, specially good ones. Fourth, that the bet and Loki's plan are actually worse than we thought, because if Hel stays without enough power (she doesn't have neither worship, nor dedication nor souls, even if she had belief) she could die
Is maybe this the only way to kill a God from the inside without risk?

Hel does have souls and Dedication; she just doesn't have any Worship.

The bet, in these terms, was essentially "What is more important, Dedication or Worship?" and Hel thought having the Dedication for (most of) a whole race was better than having Worship anywhere in whole world.

This does somewhat put into question Loki's motives in coming up with the deal, but it's likely he thought this world would only last a couple thousand years and then be destroyed. He probably either thought "Hey, I'm curious about what would happen and it's not like it's going to have any long-lasting consequences" or "My daughter really needs to learn that Worship is more important than she thinks it is, now's the perfect chance to teach her this lesson, for the sake of her in future worlds".

[Synesthesy]

Hel does have souls and Dedication; she just doesn't have any Worship.

The bet, in these terms, was essentially "What is more important, Dedication or Worship?" and Hel thought having the Dedication for (most of) a whole race was better than having Worship anywhere in whole world.

This does somewhat put into question Loki's motives in coming up with the deal, but it's likely he thought this world would only last a couple thousand years and then be destroyed. He probably either thought "Hey, I'm curious about what would happen and it's not like it's going to have any long-lasting consequences" or "My daughter really needs to learn that Worship is more important than she thinks it is, now's the perfect chance to teach her this lesson, for the sake of her in future worlds".

She has very little dedication, as only a very little minority of dwarves die without honor. Durkon says that, telling that alchool related desease and fight against trees count as honorable death.

We can't be sure, but the bet can have worst conseguences than we thought. The risk exists, imho.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

because if Hel stays without enough power (she doesn't have neither worship, nor dedication nor souls, even if she had belief) she could die

Doubtful she is in any danger - belief is probably all that is needed to continue to exist. And while she has 0 worship, she does have non-0 souls & dedication - enough, certainly, that she was able to keep granting Greg spells. Also, as per the comic, dying in a mining accident send you to Hel, and dwarves by their very nature tend to die a lot in mining accidents. She is not as soul-poor as you might think.

Thor's explanation strongly suggests that Hel's primary issue is that subsisting in souls alone is not good for the god equivalent of their cholesterol levels, but other than possibly developing the equivalent diabetes, she isn't in mortal danger, as far as I can tell.

Grey Wolf

[martianmister]

So, what should we get from the last strip? "Most of ascended gods will outlive this world but not the Dark One"?

[Emanick]

So, what should we get from the last strip? "Most of ascended gods will outlive this world but not the Dark One"?

The implication I get from the comic is that "most ascended gods tend not to outlast the worlds they originated from." It's not clear whether the average ascended god in this world (and who knows how many there are) is better equipped for survival than the average ascended god historically has been, but my assumption is that they aren't particularly anomalous. None of the likely ascended gods we know about (TDO, Dvalin, and now probably the elven gods) seem to be particularly famous, although admittedly the evidence on the ground is thin.

[Synesthesy]

It said also a third and a fourth thing: third, that Gods cannot share power one between another even inside their own pantheon, otherwise they would have saved every ascended god they liked (and we know that every ascend god was part of a pantheon, or they would have had an original quiddity before the Dark One) and none with an ally would have died, specially good ones. Fourth, that the bet and Loki's plan are actually worse than we thought, because if Hel stays without enough power (she doesn't have neither worship, nor dedication nor souls, even if she had belief) she could die
Is maybe this the only way to kill a God from the inside without risk?

After 1145, I believe this even more, as having few clerics did a thing over Odin's mind, so having no clerics at all should do a thing to Hel too.

[woweedd]

After 1145, I believe this even more, as having few clerics did a thing over Odin's mind, so having no clerics at all should do a thing to Hel too.

Um...It wasn't having no Clerics that messed Odin up. It was the belief of last world that magic was for fools and simpletons, and, since Odin is God of Magic, his personality changed to match, just as Thor's hair changed to blond once people believed him to be so.

[KorvinStarmast]

Um...It wasn't having no Clerics that messed Odin up. It was the belief of last world that magic was for fools and simpletons, and, since Odin is God of Magic, his personality changed to match, just as Thor's hair changed to blond once people believed him to be so.

Thanks for the concise summary. Odin's remark about "hoops have no end, until they do" seems to fit the theme of the Opening Post of this thread.