If The Various Iterations of The Flash Are That Strong ...

[Giggling Ghast]

... then why are their villains a bunch of goofballs?

I keep hearing from DC fans that the Flash is ridiculously OP, that the Flash can basically do anything, that Barry Allen could beat Superman blindfolded, yadda yadda yadda. So why his non-speedster villains all a bunch of low-powered one trick ponies?

Captain Cold. Mirror Master. Captain Boomerang. Pied Piper. The Top. (snicker) Heat Wave. Weather Wizard. The Trickster. Goofballs, the lot of ya.

So are Batman’s rogues, but at least they’re on his level power-wise.

[Devonix]

DC in general has issues where it's heroes are vastly more powerful than most of their enemies. The deal with the Flash most of the time isn't beating the badguy, in the same way that you don't question if Superman can beat the villain. It's the story around them. People are as much fans of the Flash's villain's "The Rogues " that there are flash stories that barely even feature him and focus entirely on them.

There are Rules in Keystone, and both sides follow them.
Rule # 1 Rogues don't kill. (Unless you have to ) Rogues don't take hostages, they don't go on murder sprees they're not gonna kill a cop trying to arrest them.
Rule # 2 Don't use drugs. You're operating dangerous weapons or using exotic powers. you're gotta control yourself and you can't do that if you're hopped up on something
Rule # 3 Make it only about the score. You're out there to make money, not take over the world. Don't do anything that would prevent you from actually enjoying that money.

Flash knows that the Rogues follow the rules, and he respects them, The Rogues know that the Flash respects their rules and also know that if they broke them he'd come down on the and come down hard.

Flash also knows that if they didn't follow the rules they'd be very very dangerous indeed they're smart, they're powerful, they're organized. And most important. They actually care about each other so you mess with one Rogue too hard, they will treat it like someone going after the family of a Superhero.

[Mordar]

... then why are their villains a bunch of goofballs?

I keep hearing from DC fans that the Flash is ridiculously OP, that the Flash can basically do anything, that Barry Allen could beat Superman blindfolded, yadda yadda yadda. So why his non-speedster villains all a bunch of low-powered weirdos?

Captain Cold. Mirror Master. Captain Boomerang. Pied Piper. The Top. (snicker) Heat Wave. Weather Wizard. The Trickster. I name thee goofballs.

So are Batman’s rogues, but at least they’re on his level power-wise.

Quick and easy: Because Flash has had more power growth than Batman. Lightspeed is newer in Flash canon than all (I think) of the goofballs you've named.

Longer: All, or at least most, villains developed in that time period were also kind of goofy. After all, we can't have the bad guys be too cool...what kind of message would that send the youth of America?

Noteworthy: Flash writers did a much better job "writing around" Flash's power than Superman writers, in my opinion. Even from the early days the Flash villains were planning for Flash's speed, considering how to distract or otherwise occupy the speedster, or considering how to make his speed work for them.

Truth: Even a few decades ago no physical villain or hero could stand up to the Flash. He decides to take someone out, no one and nothing could stop him. They'd be out before they were aware thing one was happening. Psychic/mind control/possession kinds of villains have a shot if they are the aggressors, but the millisecond Flash knows something is on, he wins. So it kind of comes down to needing a perfect psychic assassination. I assume that still holds.

- M

[Sapphire Guard]

Making the Flash angry is bad for your career.

[Traab]

Devo nailed it. The rogues are careful not to go too far or cross certain lines. They arent psychopathic mass murdering lunatics like batman or superman face. So flash doesnt go infinite mass punch on them and spread their atoms across the galaxy before they have a chance to scream. Flash is also a fairly easy going guy from what I recall. So he is going to hold back at least as hard as superman generally does because there is no need to go that far just to end the fight sooner when there isnt any real danger to anyone involved or nearby.

But yeah, flash is the most broken hero ever. As soon as they described his thought process proceeding in attoseconds and gave him feats like evacuating an entire town in mid atomic blast, there is just no real way to defeat him without handing him the worlds largest idiot ball or just outright ignoring his power level. He was taken totally off guard and shot in the back of the neck. Totally flat footed. He felt the bullet touch his skin and was able to dodge it before it could hurt him. Its honestly obnoxious really.

[TeChameleon]

Because power levels don't create good story?

Generally speaking, Batman's greatest nemesis is a clown who has about as much chance physically against Batman as... well, any other clown. Superman's greatest nemesis is a bald industrialist who seems to consider superpowers to be beneath him.

The Flash can ascend to fanwankish godhood all he wants, as long as he's in the hands of a competent writer, we can have good stories of him facing off against the Turtle (aka "The Slowest Man Alive") even before the Turtle was retconned into having 'make everything else slow' powers and was just some slow-moving guy wearing a stupid costume.

Also, as Devonix said, the Flash's Rogues are interesting because they're more Danny Ocean than Doctor Doom. They don't want to conquer the world, they're not interested in vengeance against the hero, they just want to make their mark and their big score and find a nice island with lots of sun and without any extradition treaties to retire on.

They don't need to have massive, earth-shattering powers, because the Earth is where they keep all their stuff.

[BWR]

...

Captain Cold. Mirror Master. Captain Boomerang. Pied Piper. The Top. (snicker) Heat Wave. Weather Wizard. The Trickster. I name thee you goofballs, the lot of ya.

FTFY

Thee = singular
You = plural

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, the main idea with the Rogues is not that they challenge The Flash physically. Nobody can do that. He canonically runs almost 400 times the speed of light.* So they challenge him mentally, making him jump through a few hoops, think flexibly, such like. They also have at least a guarded semi-personal relationship with him, as befits the icons of the Punch Clock Villains.

*Incidentally, Supes also is superluminal--he can fly from Earth to the Sun in seconds.

[deuterio12]

Because power levels don't create good story?

Generally speaking, Batman's greatest nemesis is a clown who has about as much chance physically against Batman as... well, any other clown. Superman's greatest nemesis is a bald industrialist who seems to consider superpowers to be beneath him.

Lex Luthor did get superpowers more than once and more than once donned power armor to fight supes mano a mano (and hey people like Stark count "I have power armor" as a super power).

Superman also has villains like Darkseid and Doomsday and Mogul and Lobo that are basically all alien gods that each could conquer/destroy Earth on their own if not supes stopping them.

And Bats often teams up with supes and fights said alien gods too. Bats cracking humie skulls in Gotham city is just Bruce's hobby, that's why he pulls out super power armor against Darkseid but goes back to spandex against the Joker. Just wouldn't be fun to beat up the crazy clown with super technology.

The Flash can ascend to fanwankish godhood all he wants, as long as he's in the hands of a competent writer, we can have good stories of him facing off against the Turtle (aka "The Slowest Man Alive") even before the Turtle was retconned into having 'make everything else slow' powers and was just some slow-moving guy wearing a stupid costume.

Also, as Devonix said, the Flash's Rogues are interesting because they're more Danny Ocean than Doctor Doom. They don't want to conquer the world, they're not interested in vengeance against the hero, they just want to make their mark and their big score and find a nice island with lots of sun and without any extradition treaties to retire on.

They don't need to have massive, earth-shattering powers, because the Earth is where they keep all their stuff.

Yeah, but then that raises the question if the Flash really doesn't care when Doomsday/Darkseid/Mogu/Lobo come down to Earth cracking stuff. Flash of all DC heroes should be able to quickly travel the globe to face any such massive threat that appears, but instead keeps himself to his goofy rogue gallery.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Yeah, but then that raises the question if the Flash really doesn't care when Doomsday/Darkseid/Mogu/Lobo come down to Earth cracking stuff. Flash of all DC heroes should be able to quickly travel the globe to face any such massive threat that appears, but instead keeps himself to his goofy rogue gallery.

From my admittedly limited knowledge of these things, whenever Darkseid comes to earth..as in not just acting through minions, that tends to be an 'all hands on deck, get everyone here now' type of scenario. So if the Flash IS around in that continuity, he tends to be there.

DC in general has issues where it's heroes are vastly more powerful than most of their enemies. The deal with the Flash most of the time isn't beating the badguy, in the same way that you don't question if Superman can beat the villain. It's the story around them. People are as much fans of the Flash's villain's "The Rogues " that there are flash stories that barely even feature him and focus entirely on them.

There are Rules in Keystone, and both sides follow them.
Rule # 1 Rogues don't kill. (Unless you have to ) Rogues don't take hostages, they don't go on murder sprees they're not gonna kill a cop trying to arrest them.
Rule # 2 Don't use drugs. You're operating dangerous weapons or using exotic powers. you're gotta control yourself and you can't do that if you're hopped up on something
Rule # 3 Make it only about the score. You're out there to make money, not take over the world. Don't do anything that would prevent you from actually enjoying that money.

Flash knows that the Rogues follow the rules, and he respects them, The Rogues know that the Flash respects their rules and also know that if they broke them he'd come down on the and come down hard.

Flash also knows that if they didn't follow the rules they'd be very very dangerous indeed they're smart, they're powerful, they're organized. And most important. They actually care about each other so you mess with one Rogue too hard, they will treat it like someone going after the family of a Superhero.

I think this was most aptly demonstrated in the JL cartoon, where Batman and...someone else went to Keystone City because the Flash was out of commission temporarily to watch the city for him and..just couldn't handle it. Not that is was beyond their capabilities, but once it was clear Batman and co. didn't care that they followed the rules, the Rogues got real vicious and clever real fast...but at the end of the episode, and Batman and co. go to detain one of the Rogues at a bar, the Flash just zips in and has a calm conversation with the guy. Turns out he was off his medication and Flash convinces him to go back on it and the guy even jokes that 'Flash got me again' before he goes off to basically turn himself in and get his medication and it just...dumbfounds the other two and they realize they can't handle Keystone because neither of them have the relationship with the Rogues that Flash does and they just aren't suited to fighting crime in Keystone.

[OracleofWuffing]

Is it too much a cop-out to say that one would have to be a goofball to want to go up against Flash in the first place?

[Giggling Ghast]

I think this was most aptly demonstrated in the JL cartoon, where Batman and...someone else went to Keystone City because the Flash was out of commission temporarily to watch the city for him and..just couldn't handle it.

Three points I need to clarify:
1) It was Batman and Orion.
2) The Flash wasn’t out of commission, they were just helping him out because they got wind the Rogues were teaming up to take him down on Flash Appreciation Day.

at the end of the episode, and Batman and co. go to detain one of the Rogues at a bar, the Flash just zips in and has a calm conversation with the guy. Turns out he was off his medication and Flash convinces him to go back on it and the guy even jokes that 'Flash got me again' before he goes off to basically turn himself in and get his medication and it just...dumbfounds the other two and they realize they can't handle Keystone because neither of them have the relationship with the Rogues that Flash does and they just aren't suited to fighting crime in Keystone.

3) That scene was more the midpoint. It’s actually a really nice scene, since it demonstrates how Flash is able to get the information he needs by being nice to the Trickster, as opposed to the beating Orion wants to deal out.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl91v2Mvv94

There’s still a big fight at the end where Bats and Orion actually have a little trouble against Captain Boomerang, Mirror Master and Captain Cold, but with Flash’s help, they quickly clobber all three.

[Metahuman1]

Regards to the OP:


You also seem to be underestimating some of those goofballs.


Captain Cold, ok, think of One Piece. Certain people will have a specific fighting style or tool/power set that is a perfect counter to an opponent that otherwise is just so above them they'd never so much as touch him. Luffy was this for the Skypiea (I think that's how it's spelled, been awhile.) arc's big bad. Nami was this more recently to one of the heavier hitters on Whole Cake Island. Brook was this for the big bads grunt foot soldiers.

Captain Cold is like this for Flash. Granted, he still looses, but the basic principle still apply's.



Mirror Master and Weather Wizard are extremely powerful. They'd be a worthy challenge for most members of the Justice League who arnt' Kryptonian, MAYBE some flavor of God or Demi god depending on the writing, Lanterns or Magic Users. That's a majority of the league.

And yes, that included Martian Manhunter, Firestorm, Aquaman, Red Tornado and in some continuity's, Wonder Woman. Whom are not wimps by any stretch of the imagination.

[deuterio12]

Mirror Master and Weather Wizard are extremely powerful. They'd be a worthy challenge for most members of the Justice League who arnt' Kryptonian

Actually I recall a story about Mirror Master ruining supes day because all the kryptonian superiority still won't allow Clark to get inside the Mirror Dimension.

But yeah, some pretty heavy hitters among the goofballs, shame they never seem to remember to use their powers for greater things (in Kingdom Come Captain Cold moves to the desert where being able to produce unlimited ice on demand makes him basically worshiped by the locals)

[Celestia]

Yeah, the main idea with the Rogues is not that they challenge The Flash physically. Nobody can do that. He canonically runs almost 400 times the speed of light.* So they challenge him mentally, making him jump through a few hoops, think flexibly, such like. They also have at least a guarded semi-personal relationship with him, as befits the icons of the Punch Clock Villains.

*Incidentally, Supes also is superluminal--he can fly from Earth to the Sun in seconds.

Actually, he's a little bit faster than that.

[Metahuman1]

Actually I recall a story about Mirror Master ruining supes day because all the kryptonian superiority still won't allow Clark to get inside the Mirror Dimension.

But yeah, some pretty heavy hitters among the goofballs, shame they never seem to remember to use their powers for greater things (in Kingdom Come Captain Cold moves to the desert where being able to produce unlimited ice on demand makes him basically worshiped by the locals)

Honestly it doesn't surprise me. Heck, Red Solar Energy and weird mirror reversing's of power are also in his wheel house. So, yeah, being able to at least make a Krypotian underestimate him at there own Peril makes sense.

[ben-zayb]

Why wouldn't they?
https://m.imgur.com/wyRUaMz
https://m.imgur.com/vYqX3Y9

[Quiver]

Also, as Devonix said, the Flash's Rogues are interesting because they're more Danny Ocean than Doctor Doom. They don't want to conquer the world, they're not interested in vengeance against the hero, they just want to make their mark and their big score and find a nice island with lots of sun and without any extradition treaties to retire on.

Side note: I have been saying for years now that I want a Rogue's movie for basically this reason; a supervillain heist movie would be great.

I mean, am I seriously the only one who see's the potential there? Of Captain Cold getting the old gang back together for "one last score", each of them using their powers and gadgets to break into - I dunno, Wayne Enterprises?- while having to contend with the greatest security system on the planet, Keystone police and the Flash?


Anyway... yeah, the Rogue's are awesome villains, but it's worth pointing out that the Flash still has other, less goofy villains to pull from, alá Grodd and Reverse-Flash/Zoom/whatever he's calling himself these days. There's a nice variety to his... er... Rogue's Gallery.

[Traab]

Side note: I have been saying for years now that I want a Rogue's movie for basically this reason; a supervillain heist movie would be great.

I mean, am I seriously the only one who see's the potential there? Of Captain Cold getting the old gang back together for "one last score", each of them using their powers and gadgets to break into - I dunno, Wayne Enterprises?- while having to contend with the greatest security system on the planet, Keystone police and the Flash?


Anyway... yeah, the Rogue's are awesome villains, but it's worth pointing out that the Flash still has other, less goofy villains to pull from, alá Grodd and Reverse-Flash/Zoom/whatever he's calling himself these days. There's a nice variety to his... er... Rogue's Gallery.

Meh, heist movie would be good, I want a superpowered james bond film with black widow and hawkeye. Fury got wind of an AIM base somewhere and sends his two best agents to investigate. We get to see black widow be the female james bond as she seduces info from the oddly handsome Jimmy O'toole and Ben Den Grind, hawkeye gets to break out his various trick arrows to take out guards, plant bugs, and do all the odd stuff that SHIELD can think of cramming onto an arrow. Super powered death traps to escape from when they inevitable get captured, and of course some badass fight scenes as they try to stop MODOK from teleporting all the valuable minerals on earth into the phantom zone where only he can reach them.

[LibraryOgre]

I think this was most aptly demonstrated in the JL cartoon, where Batman and...someone else went to Keystone City because the Flash was out of commission temporarily to watch the city for him and..just couldn't handle it. Not that is was beyond their capabilities, but once it was clear Batman and co. didn't care that they followed the rules, the Rogues got real vicious and clever real fast...but at the end of the episode, and Batman and co. go to detain one of the Rogues at a bar, the Flash just zips in and has a calm conversation with the guy. Turns out he was off his medication and Flash convinces him to go back on it and the guy even jokes that 'Flash got me again' before he goes off to basically turn himself in and get his medication and it just...dumbfounds the other two and they realize they can't handle Keystone because neither of them have the relationship with the Rogues that Flash does and they just aren't suited to fighting crime in Keystone.

The scene in question

The third is Orion, the son of Darkseid and foster son of Highfather.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, he's a little bit faster than that.

You mean they powered him up AGAIN!?

Man, am I glad I quit comics. The suspension of disbelief required is a superpower unto itself.

[Rater202]

Anybody that's dangerous enough to be a threat to the Flash without planning is either sane/smart enough not to risk it, is too stupid or crazy to use their powers to their full potential, or isn't located where the Flash can deal without without going out of his way.

usually, the omniversal maniacs are in places where getting the flash to help deal with them would be too inconvenient compared to actually wrecking them by hand: they're usually off in pace were you need Superman or one of the Lantern Corps to deal with them.

[Traab]

You mean they powered him up AGAIN!?

Man, am I glad I quit comics. The suspension of disbelief required is a superpower unto itself.

The comic where he is faster than instantaneous travel was from 1998. It also required him to somehow absorb the kinetic energy of everyone on earth running at the same time. When he evacuated an entire city in mid atomic blast, that was 2003. Btw, according to some math, with the number of trips he had to make, the distance traveled and the time he did it in, he would have been moving at 1.33 x 10 e13 times the speed of light. Thats a rough estimate made by fans. I admit I have no idea where the most current adaptation of the flash puts him.

[TeChameleon]

Interestingly, there's also at least one instance of an evil Flash-alike (Johnny Quick, from the Crime Syndicate of Amerika/Earth 3) attempting a sneering takedown of Captain Cold, casually disarming him while pontificating on what a wuss the Flash must be to even consider having him as an enemy... and promptly has his leg frozen with a simple voice command to the cold gun. Then Cold shatters said leg and puts him out of his misery (since the CSA was in the middle of a singularily unpleasant world takeover bit/murder spree, he was exempted from the Rogues' no-killing rule) while commenting that out-of-town speedsters always seemed to underestimate the Rogues.

I never liked the Nu52 stuff, but that was a pretty good example of why the Rogues are dangerous.

[Devonix]

Interestingly, there's also at least one instance of an evil Flash-alike (Johnny Quick, from the Crime Syndicate of Amerika/Earth 3) attempting a sneering takedown of Captain Cold, casually disarming him while pontificating on what a wuss the Flash must be to even consider having him as an enemy... and promptly has his leg frozen with a simple voice command to the cold gun. Then Cold shatters said leg and puts him out of his misery (since the CSA was in the middle of a singularily unpleasant world takeover bit/murder spree, he was exempted from the Rogues' no-killing rule) while commenting that out-of-town speedsters always seemed to underestimate the Rogues.

I never liked the Nu52 stuff, but that was a pretty good example of why the Rogues are dangerous.

Yeah the Rogues are incredibly dangerous. It's just that they're punch clock villains. They know the " Game " and enjoy playing it with the heroes. There's no reason for taking over the world. It's too much trouble to rule. A lesson Doctor Doom seems to keep forgetting. Its more fun to rob a bank or too. Get into a big showdown, make some money and have some beers with friends.

Also if you do end up killing the hero, then what. Now you're the one everyone's gonna come crawling to the next time there's an alien invasion.

[Traab]

Yeah the Rogues are incredibly dangerous. It's just that they're punch clock villains. They know the " Game " and enjoy playing it with the heroes. There's no reason for taking over the world. It's too much trouble to rule. A lesson Doctor Doom seems to keep forgetting. Its more fun to rob a bank or too. Get into a big showdown, make some money and have some beers with friends.

Also if you do end up killing the hero, then what. Now you're the one everyone's gonna come crawling to the next time there's an alien invasion.

Nah, that isnt dooms problem. His problem is his obsession with being better than reed richards. He is a ruler born and bred, to him the game is beating his rival in something. Out thinking or out planning him.

[Devonix]

Nah, that isnt dooms problem. His problem is his obsession with being better than reed richards. He is a ruler born and bred, to him the game is beating his rival in something. Out thinking or out planning him.

Yeah but he doesn't need to go through with world conquering to do that. His best victories against Richards are when he just proves he's better at something like when he helped deliver his daughter and in exchange wanted the right to name her. That's a victory. I did something you couldn't and now your child has a name I chose.

[The Jack]

I just don't get how in every justice league I've seen he's depicted as weak/comic relief, and gets hit a lot for plot convenience....

[Devonix]

I just don't get how in every justice league I've seen he's depicted as weak/comic relief, and gets hit a lot for plot convenience....

All of the Cartoons have to do this. Because the characters are too powerful."

Aquaman and Martian Manhunter are each powerful enough telepaths to mind wipe the entire planet, And yet you'll never see either do anything near to this.

[Mordar]

I just don't get how in every justice league I've seen he's depicted as weak/comic relief, and gets hit a lot for plot convenience....

I think that might be an easy way to avoid dealing with his power level. I was a Flash fan way back (1980s) and he was always a serious character - Barry was a scientist first and foremost, and as presented in the 50s forward, that means serious, no-nonsense guy. As Flash he was not a wise-cracking comedic relief character...he was still serious and hard working. Despite his love for Iris and desire to be a normal boyfriend then fiancee then husband, a running "joke" in the books was that he was always late to meet her...because he had to foil the crime/save the victim/protect the city on the way to his dates with her. That was about as comedic as he got.

I think later writers (a) didn't want to deal with the power level and what a serious hero could do with it, and (b) wanted to emulate Spider Man's wisecracking fun hero guy vibe, because "Of course Justice League needs a doofy guy to lighten things up!".

I hate that Flash and Iron Fist got the Spider Man treatment in later iterations

- M