Pathfinder: Kingmaker

[VexingFool]

The CRPG from Owlcat Games based on the Kingmaker Adventure Path comes out today. The game is a ‘Real Time with Pause’ isometric party-based RPG similar in style to Baldur’s Gate. The game is using the Pathfinder ruleset with some alternate rules like consolidated skills.

The game has the core classes plus Alchemist, Inquisitor and Magus. The Barbarian, Monk and Rogue are the Unchained variants. Each class has three additional archetypes to choose from. There are a few Prestige Classes: Arcane Trickster, Duelist, Dragon Disciple, Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge and Stalwart Defender.

It is 7 chapters long covering the 6 AP books plus a bonus chapter unlocked during the Kickstarter. Estimated completion time is 40-80 hours. In addition to the standard questing/dungeon crawling there are Kingdom and Town building mechanics. There is no character crafting instead you have Kingdom artisans you commission to craft you items.

There are 11 different companions each with side quests and roles they can play in your Kingdom. In addition you can hire custom companions but these cost gold and can’t fill any advisor roles in your Kingdom.

My current thoughts on my first builds are:
Fighter-2/Wizard-8/Eldritch Knight-10 archer character. (They do have Eldritch Archer Magus but I want 9th level spells.)
Scaled Fist Monk-17/Paladin-3
Druid-18/Barbarian-2

Really looking forward to playing this game. My only concern is that the later chapters may not be as polished as Chapter 1. Chapter 1 was extensively played in the alpha and beta tests and many bugs were discovered and fixed. Chapter 2 was available in the early beta but was not in the last beta build.

[JadedDM]

Estimated completion time is 40-80 hours.

Guess I need to clear some time from my schedule before tackling this then. It took me 3 months to finish Pillars of Eternity 2, and it was about as long.

[Renegade Paladin]

It feels an awful lot like CRPGs of the late 90s/early 2000s. Which isn't entirely a bad thing, but if you're looking for a flashy graphics game, this isn't it. I really like that style of game, though, so I'm having fun with it.

[Firechanter]

Tagging this thread to follow some first-hand reviews from people who actually have a clue about D&D / PF. ;)

I'm pretty sure I want the game, but I also have a long-standing policy of not spending more than 20€ on a single game. Gotta admit that I'm sorely tempted to break that rule and fork over the 30€ currently asked by at least one (legit) keyseller. Otherwise I'ma hold off a while until I can be sure they didn't botch the main parts of the campaign. ^^ Anyway!

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Of course, we need to be aware of the fact that this game only offers a tiny, tiny fraction of the entire published PF content we are accustomed to. So your favourite builds and combos? Probably not supported. :p
As mentioned above there are only about 3 Archetypes per class, and the available ATs are often rather lackluster and not the stuff you'd likely take in a tabletop game.
Likewise, feat support varies a lot between classes (going from the Wiki list here). At first glance, Inquisitors seem to get more support than Paladins, for instance. Speaking of Paladins, two out of their 3 ATs are terrible.

Just saying, I am currently in a Kingmaker game playing a Paladin, so naturally I'm tempted to play PFKM with the same character. But it appears that the computer game only offers _one_ out of the six feats I picked up until level 9, and of course it doesn't feature my chosen AT, either. So, bummer there. Would have to use an entirely different build either way.

--

Two aspects are yet unclear to me:

1. All previews so far pretty much state that your main character is destined to be the Ruler of your nation. So, if that's true and the kingdom rules work the way they do in PF, that would pretty much mean you're screwing yourself if you don't take a CHA build. Does anyone know if you can also outsource the Ruler position to one of your companions if you want to play, say a CHA 8 Ranger, and have your Ranger be the warden or reeve or whatever instead?

2. The AP features a few scripted weapon drops, advising the GM to adjust the weapon type to "whatever your group's main melee character uses" (phrased a little differently, ofc). Again, does the game make similar provisions?

[Nadevoc]

I backed this, since the Kingmaker AP always seemed interesting. I've definitely started to disfavor 3.5 (and by extension Pathfinder, which I've never actually played but is extremely close), but having the PC handle all the little pluses and minuses means I don't have to worry about tracking them all, so there go my big complaints with the system. Seems like there's promise for this to capture some of the magic I found in games like Baldur's Gate, which I would love.

Anyhow, I'll post more thoughts as I actually play the game. I haven't really followed it at all since backing it, preferring to let myself be surprised (hopefully pleasantly!)

[Renegade Paladin]

2. The AP features a few scripted weapon drops, advising the GM to adjust the weapon type to "whatever your group's main melee character uses" (phrased a little differently, ofc). Again, does the game make similar provisions?

I haven't gotten past Oleg's yet, so don't know. Also, I'm going to stop about halfway through the game to let our tabletop Kingmaker campaign finish, but there are a few weapon drops I know about before I get to that point, so I can let you know.

[Aotrs Commander]

Backed it, 'cos I like this sort of game and Golarion is by far the best campaign world I've ever read (it is the only one D&D and related has ever created that I play on willingly and not because something I running happens to be set on a place). Golarion is the only campaign world I have ever bought books for (outside of Rolemaster's for Middle-Earth) just to read the fluff. (They had me the moment they told me Golarion was in a proper solar-system with other planets and stuff.0

As I am part-way through Spellforce 3 and I haven't ever properly played through Deadfire yet, it might be a bit before I play this, though. But I won't feel too bad about it, since it'll give 'em tie to patch the inevitable bugs - I say that without rancour, there are ALWAYS bugs, much as people would like to think something could be otherwise - and they already took my money, damn it (sic).

(Also, the hype was always cautious, since I've had a couple of kickstarters keel over in the same sort of timeframe.)

I'm actually pretty well away for games at the moment, I really am.

[Anteros]

It's getting absolutely destroyed on Steam reviews so far. I'll pick this up, but I'm going to wait until they work out some of the bugs.

[Renegade Paladin]

Huh. Haven't run into any bugs so far, but I can see why a modern game audience would destroy it in reviews; as I said, it looks like it came straight out of 2002.

[Anteros]

Huh. Haven't run into any bugs so far, but I can see why a modern game audience would destroy it in reviews; as I said, it looks like it came straight out of 2002.

Most if not all of the negative reviews I've seen were bug related. I think the CRPG genre is niche enough that most people who buy these games kinda expect the retro look. It's probably just a compatibility issue with certain types of hardware. Hopefully it gets sorted soon. I'm hopeful for the game and I'd hate to see its launch get derailed by technical issues.

[VexingFool]

Played about 4hrs today and only had one crash that happened when trying to exit to main menu after playing for 2 1/2hrs. I had saved and reloaded many times during that play through with no difficulty.

Not sure what to say about complaints about the graphics. To me it looks as good as PoE2 but not quite up to DOS2. I mostly play these games zoomed out so guess I don't really notice graphics differences. The maps and terrain look great. There are definitely more character appearance options than PoE2 had when it launched. I love that everything shows on your character model. Potions appear on your belt, extra weapons on your back and bracers show up on your arms when equipped. Valerie has a magic lantern that hangs from her belt and generates light, there are lots of small details.

Gameplay has been good so far, I am still getting used to the UI quirks for this game. I need to set some different hotkeys, I was playing Wasteland 2 again last week and keep trying to use those keys for highlighting and party select. My first run through with my Archer took about 2 1/2 hrs to get through the tutorial and the 2nd fight at Oleg's. I did have to replay that fight several times as several people were dying in the fight. I am playing on a harder difficulty than default but some tactics changes were what was needed. After that fight I decided to try another character so I rolled my Scaled Fist Monk, took about 30 minutes to get through the opening sequence and make it to Oleg's. Playing on the same difficulty, the monk with Dragon Style plowed through the opening bad guys like a flaming ki fist through butter.

So far the game is everything I expected it to be and more. For the shoestring budget these Devs had to work with I think they have delivered a heck of a game. Of course it is still early in the game and my earlier fear may still come true and the game may be a bug riddled mess after Chapter 1. Of course that didn't kill DOS2 and those developers got most of the bugs sorted out eventually. I just hope these guys are given a chance, I can't wait to see what DLC they deliver and would love to see more AP's done.

Of course, we need to be aware of the fact that this game only offers a tiny, tiny fraction of the entire published PF content we are accustomed to. So your favorite builds and combos? Probably not supported. :p
As mentioned above there are only about 3 Archetypes per class, and the available ATs are often rather lackluster and not the stuff you'd likely take in a tabletop game.
Likewise, feat support varies a lot between classes (going from the Wiki list here). At first glance, Inquisitors seem to get more support than Paladins, for instance. Speaking of Paladins, two out of their 3 ATs are terrible.

Just saying, I am currently in a Kingmaker game playing a Paladin, so naturally I'm tempted to play PFKM with the same character. But it appears that the computer game only offers _one_ out of the six feats I picked up until level 9, and of course it doesn't feature my chosen AT, either. So, bummer there. Would have to use an entirely different build either way.

There are DLC's planned that will add more to the game. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually each class got another Archetype. More races and more classes seem to be the most requested items.

I haven't had any problem planning out a character build with the current archetypes and feats. There is a lot of content there for the first game. If they can survive the review bombing happening, they have a nice core system on which to build upon. Of course this is complicated by the future of Pathfinder 2.0.

Two aspects are yet unclear to me:

1. All previews so far pretty much state that your main character is destined to be the Ruler of your nation. So, if that's true and the kingdom rules work the way they do in PF, that would pretty much mean you're screwing yourself if you don't take a CHA build. Does anyone know if you can also outsource the Ruler position to one of your companions if you want to play, say a CHA 8 Ranger, and have your Ranger be the warden or reeve or whatever instead?

2. The AP features a few scripted weapon drops, advising the GM to adjust the weapon type to "whatever your group's main melee character uses" (phrased a little differently, ofc). Again, does the game make similar provisions?

The Dev's have stated that they made changes to the Kingdom ruler mechanics so that a Charisma character is not necessary. I don't know if Charisma characters would have any advantage over characters who dump Charisma. There was a vague statement about Charisma not being the only quality of leadership or something. Early on in the game your main character is called out for their leadership skills, so I would guess it is baked into the game.

I know there was one particular weapon a Dev mentioned that was important to the campaign and I believe they said it would appear as a weapon favored by the main character. Not sure my memory is 100% on that one, doubt I can find that thread on steam again. They did state there is at least one named weapon for every weapon type in the game. So if you pick up fauchard proficiency you should not feel like you made a poor choice. It'll be interesting to see how much control you have over the artisan system.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's getting absolutely destroyed on Steam reviews so far. I'll pick this up, but I'm going to wait until they work out some of the bugs.

*checks*

75% is "absolutely destroyed?"

It currently is sitting prettier than most of the already-released games I looked at for comparison off my own list (poor old BATTLETECH appears to have dropped to "mixed").

It may be you looked while all the people who couldn't load it or immediately rage-quit for whatever reason left their reviews and before people who were too busy playing put theirs in.



Honestly, sounds like a typical game release; doubly so for a kickstarter. War for the Oveworld was VERY rough on release (with a kickstarter especially, there comes a point you need to get it out of the door lest the project fail), and with time and patches, it is coming close to nudging DungeonKeeper aside, it is now THAT good. Hell, I have learned it's always worth giving anything Paradox release a couple of weeks after release before playing anything, because bugs.

[GloatingSwine]

*checks*

75% is "absolutely destroyed?"

Oh god yes. Steam reviews are no more immune to the three point scale where 7/10 is the score a game gets if running the executable deletes your operating system and sprays anthrax out of the fan vents.

Consider how the public at large reacts if <insert popular anticipated title> gets a score as low as 8...

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh god yes. Steam reviews are no more immune to the three point scale where 7/10 is the score a game gets if running the executable deletes your operating system and sprays anthrax out of the fan vents.

Consider how the public at large reacts if <insert popular anticipated title> gets a score as low as 8...

Considering the ONLY games in my library that I looked up that were higher than that was Tyranny and the aforementioned War for the Overworld - small games with niche markets...

Okay, as of this post, I checked a couple more which are higher and Cities Skylines, Tropico 4 and PS:T enhanced...

Fracking Total Warhammer 1 only ever managed the same (75%), so oh no, if it's as "bad" as Total Warhammer, it must be terrible...



(Though frankly, any idiot who doesn't bother to do actually do any kind of basic research before making a purchase in this day and age and just goes on on a single aggregate number deserves to miss having good anything. And possibly being hit by a bus, since we could use a lot less Stupid in the world.

Nor should we encourage the mode of thinking that the "three-point scale" is worthy of anything other than derision.)

[Morty]

I have conflicted feelings. On the one hand, I am always on lookout for quality old-schoolish isometric RPGs. On the other hand, well, Pathfinder. Like others, I'm just going to wait for people's impressions before deciding. Maybe my apprehensions will prove correct, maybe they won't. Fidelity (or rather, lack thereof) to the rules and the quality of the fighter and rogue classes will be deciding factors.

[GloatingSwine]

Considering the ONLY games in my library that I looked up that were higher than that was Tyranny and the aforementioned War for the Overworld - small games with niche markets...

Okay, as of this post, I checked a couple more which are higher and Cities Skylines, Tropico 4 and PS:T enhanced...

Fracking Total Warhammer 1 only ever managed the same (75%), so oh no, if it's as "bad" as Total Warhammer, it must be terrible...

I mean user reviews in general are useless because the main thing that motivates people to write them is having some kind of axe to grind (Like Battletech review score dropping is likely because of unpopular changes to skills in recent patches).

Also they're written by people you'll never see or hear from again, so there's no incentive for them to build a reputation as a thoughtful or introspective reviewer.

A million monkeys with a million keyboards are unlikely to produce useful reviews even in aggregate.

[Aotrs Commander]

I mean user reviews in general are useless because the main thing that motivates people to write them is having some kind of axe to grind (Like Battletech review score dropping is likely because of unpopular changes to skills in recent patches).

Also they're written by people you'll never see or hear from again, so there's no incentive for them to build a reputation as a thoughtful or introspective reviewer.

A million monkeys with a million keyboards are unlikely to produce useful reviews even in aggregate.

Agreed,



And, at this point, looking through my last few posts in threads the last few hours aforemediation time, I'mma take a rest from posting and stuff for a bit, probably most of the day, on account of me being inexplicably more snippy and short-tempered than usual (well, maybe not entirely inexplicably, bt that's neither there nor there); even that last post was snippier than it really needed to be. *tips helmet*

[Firechanter]

I know there was one particular weapon a Dev mentioned that was important to the campaign and I believe they said it would appear as a weapon favored by the main character.

Ah, thanks for the heads-up.
That invokes the question how the program wants to determine which weapon my Main favours, especially if I don't have weapon-specific feats. Longest time clocked in the equipment slot? Most combat rounds fought? There have been games in the past using either of those approaches and none of them worked particularly well.

[dascarletm]

Going to roll up a sword saint magus, can't decide what weapon to focus on though.

[Anteros]

*checks*

75% is "absolutely destroyed?"

It was sub 50% when I looked, but that was pretty close to launch time and I guess a lot of people weren't actually able to launch the game at first. It's recovering nicely now.

[The Glyphstone]

So how well does it actually play? Are non-blaster spellcasters viable? Are the companion characters interesting?

[Firechanter]

Going to roll up a sword saint magus, can't decide what weapon to focus on though.

Well, something with high Threat range, I suppose. So, Falchion for a Str build, or even better No-Dachi if the game has it. If it's true that the important weapon drops are adjusted to whatever you have specced into, you can't go wrong with that. ^^

[dascarletm]

Going Dex-based. Sadly no Nodachi or Katanas. (at least in weapon prof feats)

I think the Estoc would be best for that. Wanted to do dueling sword, but the threat range is only 19-20 :(

[JadedDM]

Also, dumb question, but this game is 1E Pathfinder, right?

[Morty]

If Aldori duelling swords are in this game, then that's one incredibly nitpicky complainant of mine possibly averted. Although whether or not it's possible to run a good fighter with them (inasmuch as a PF fighter can be good) is another question.

[Sloanzilla]

It's fun. But I am having a bad week and didn't really want to think when I got to the statue puzzle.

[Minion #6]

Also, dumb question, but this game is 1E Pathfinder, right?

I mean, PF2 playtest hasn't been out even 2 months yet, so...

[Firechanter]

If Aldori duelling swords are in this game, then that's one incredibly nitpicky complainant of mine possibly averted. Although whether or not it's possible to run a good fighter with them (inasmuch as a PF fighter can be good) is another question.

Well. It certainly meshes well thematically, but other than fluff, I don't see much going for it. Sword Scion would be a nice trait (if it's even in the game, I don't know) but it works just as well with longswords. If you want to finesse, you pay 1 EWP feat for 1 point of extra damage over the rapier, and that's hardly worth it.
At least the Aldori Defender is not that terribly focused on Disarming - you basically have to invest one feat's worth into it. A dedicated Disarmer is probably not worth it in KM since most of the time you'll be fighting monsters, so Disarm feats will do squat for you.

That said, it might be a nice run if you're in for a challenge and are fed up with playing powerbuilds. ;)

[Renegade Paladin]

Is anyone else getting to Thorn Ford and not finding the bandit camp that the quest says should be there?

[VexingFool]

That invokes the question how the program wants to determine which weapon my Main favours, especially if I don't have weapon-specific feats. Longest time clocked in the equipment slot? Most combat rounds fought? There have been games in the past using either of those approaches and none of them worked particularly well.

I had the same thoughts as well. Guess I'll have to wait and see, I'm sure someone's probably already through to Chapter 2+. I haven't played the Kingmaker AP and don't own it either, so I don't know what weapon would be campaign critical.

I think the Estoc would be best for that. Wanted to do dueling sword, but the threat range is only 19-20 :(

Estocs look like a good choice.

If Aldori duelling swords are in this game, then that's one incredibly nitpicky complainant of mine possibly averted. Although whether or not it's possible to run a good fighter with them (inasmuch as a PF fighter can be good) is another question.

They also have the Aldori Defender archetype and the duelist prestige class.

It's fun. But I am having a bad week and didn't really want to think when I got to the statue puzzle.

I was pretty tired as well and had to go old school and break out the paper and pencil to solve it.

Spoiler: Slight spoiler

Show

There are two rooms. One for the swords up and one for swords down.

Is anyone else getting to Thorn Ford and not finding the bandit camp that the quest says should be there?

Were they at the Ford map or at a location nearby? I remember I went to the Ford and found the bandits shortly after. It might be one of those encounters that is time sensitive.

Spoiler

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You should have found Jhod and talked to Kressel.

Second day of playing and had lots of frustrating tough fights. I don't have the difficulty turned up much, just to standard rules level, but still getting my butt handed to me in some fights. There is no level scaling in this game so I understand if I run into an occasional encounter or location I'm not ready for. But there are several quest fights that seemed a bit overtuned and I was only able to beat them using the pre-order/kickstarter items I had. The Devs have acknowledged some of this and said they are making changes for 1.02 difficulties. They are also adding a tooltip, dialog and providing items for a quest that runs into a couple of swarms.

After beating the first two fights at the Shrine of the Elk Lord and getting my butt handed to me in the third I decided to play my monk campaign. The monk continues to impress and I was able to win the major battle at Oleg's on the first try. She seems to be able to get behind enemy lines fairly easy and take down those casters and archers quick. I've tried to use Amiri for this in my first game but she always seems to get stuck in with frontliners.

Spoiler

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My first run I recruited the alchemist into the fight and perhaps his bombs were hurting me as much as helping.