Pathfinder: Kingmaker

[Kaptin Keen]

In the kingdom game, I feel like ... I simply don't have enough guys. Is that just the way it is? I've only had one month thus far, but I've far more problems than I have advisors to put on it.

[Firechanter]

Yes, it turns out this is one of the changes in Pathfinder I didn't know about. The sneak attacks vs. undead isn't the point though. These undead go down from 11 hp of damage. Why is it I have a 80-90% miss chance against them?

Actually, why would I ever have such a high miss chance against any enemy in any game? It's like the Viscount - only, I could neither hit nor affect the Viscount, at all.

On what level and difficulty?

I play on Challenging with Normal Enemies and rarely have a problem with hitting. Regular mobs go down fast enough. Skeletal Champions were a bit of a problem since I had hardly any blunt weapons.

I had warning about the Viscount and didn't tackle him until after the Stag Lord, so I was level 5 already. Okay, having a Paladin Main certainly helps, being fear-immune and all. Yes he was annoyingly hard to hit with his 35AC, and he somehow managed to dispel my Communal Resist Energy (or it was a bug), but still he didn't stand a chance. I simply had someone cast a new Resist Energy on my Pala and the rest was just whittling him down. The killing blow was dealt by my Archer, by the way.
Long story short, I think I needn't have waited as long and could just as well have tackled him at level 4 or even 3, it just would have taken longer.

The nastiest fight in Chapter 1 would be the Wererats. Had to try that one several times. It becomes a lot easier if you manage to disable the tripwire.

[Kaptin Keen]

On what level and difficulty?

Level 4, on normal. Valerie fights defensively, so I hardly expect her to hit a lot - but everyone else has at least a good +7 or more to hit. Before buffs.

Now, I'm using only pre-genned characters. So they're as optimized as they are. Still, it's skeletons, for the love of god. They're CR1. Or supposed to be, anyways.

[Crustypeanut]

The viscount is a very unique encounter in that at the level you'd expect to encounter him (2-3), theres almost no chance of you beating him. His AC is nuts and he somehow manages to have I think 4 levels of sorcerer, as the Fear spell he has he can use 3-4 times, as well as Shield and Mage Armor.

Its literally a no-win fight at level 2-3. The best you can hope for is level 3 and Resist Energy: Electricity, because he purely does electricity damage, and only 2d8 (with one occasional 3d8 attack) at that. As far as hitting him its near impossible at that level - hell, even at level 5+ he's hard as hell to hit. He's basically only vulnerable to magic missile.. until he uses his Shield spell. Then you gotta just wait for nat 20s to hit him.

Yeah, its easily one of the stupidest fights in the game and I've reached up to level 10. I understand that they put him there for a reason, but having that reason be "Oh, you saw the signs, these guys died horrible and you're gonna camp there? Bad idea!" is kinda.. ****ty. I understand it, as they want to show you that not everything is fair in the world of Golarion.. but its a big turn off to a lot of newer players.

Especially without a proper retreat mechanic in place.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, its easily one of the stupidest fights in the game and I've reached up to level 10. I understand that they put him there for a reason, but having that reason be "Oh, you saw the signs, these guys died horrible and you're gonna camp there? Bad idea!" is kinda.. ****ty. I understand it, as they want to show you that not everything is fair in the world of Golarion.. but its a big turn off to a lot of newer players.

Especially without a proper retreat mechanic in place.

Well. I'm actually kinda tempted to dig out a level 3 savegame and see if it can be done. Basically I think you can win an attrition fight against the Viscount if your melees have Resist Energy up, don't succumb to fear and you have some healing in the background (like Tristian channeling), but it's probably not a lot of fun.
Also, while a fully rested party may stand a chance at level 3 -- typically you rest when you've run dry. So this encounter basically forces you to metagame.

Not being able to flee is really a terrible design choice. In tabletop gaming we basically get drilled to pick our battles and evade fights that promise to be too hard. Actually, on one of the first days into our Kingmaker campaign, we were camping in the wilderness when the night watch spotted a Wil-o-the-Wisp meander across the Kamelands. You bet we packed up our gear and moved camp faster than you can say Jack-o-Lantern. We were lv 2 and wouldn't have stood a chance.

Anyway, back to the Viscount:
Iirc this was the only fight where I actually switched off Power Attack. Hence, my Main's attack score was composed as follows:
5 Level + 4 Str + 1 Weapon + 2 Inspire Courage + 2 Flanking + 4 Smite Evil + 1 Divine Bond = +19 vs AC 35 -> 25% hit chance. I could have boosted that significantly by more micromanaging -- in fact 50% hit chance is entirely doable at level 5 if you really want it.

[Crustypeanut]

I mean, he's not a required fight by any means. I comfortably skipped him in my current playthrough (now level 8) without losing out on anything important. Theres enough Exp, even with sharing on and 5 custom party members, and its not like there's an achievement for killing him. I've killed enough will-o-wisps now that they're not really much of a threat anyways, so even he wouldn't stand much of a chance (although his stupid AC would be a bit of a bother). So i mean, if you want to kill him early on go right ahead, but imo he's not worth the time.

Also, did you know you can trip wisps in this game? I was laughing my ass off when I found this out. I accidentally left my fighter's trip on auto-cast and then I saw the wisp go down without dying - he tripped the little blighter. Not Viscount mind you, but just a random War Wisp.

[Maryring]

The Viscount has an AC of 39. At least that's what he had in my game which was played on Normal. Honestly though, the biggest problem I have with the Viscount is twofold. The first is that the lore check that reveals him speak about burns, which, when you pass such a difficult Lore check should tell you the difference between electric burns and fire, so even if you prepare for the fight with Remove Fear and bardic songs and what have you, you'd sensibly protect yourself from fire. And you'd be WRONG for doing so.

But even if you do protect yourself from electricity, you're still facing an enemy who has his AC arbitrarily increased half again. A wisp has a base AC of 26, not 39. At level 3, you're looking at a +7 of BAB + str, maybe a +1 from Weapon Focus, and another +2 from bless and bardic courage. Which ultimately doesn't matter While this would've made it easier to hit a normal wisp, it does nothing for this fight and you still have to roll a natural 20 to defeat it. And so you don't get to feel clever for overcoming any challenge regarding the viscount. You just sit around and wait for the 20s to appear.

But in more positive news, I find that I actually like some of your companions. Jubilost is a fun and usful character. I'm honestly a bit surprised he's designated at CN as he strikes me as rather good, but either way I find his blunt honesty refreshing and fun. I also like Amiri and Linzi to a lesser degree, although.

Spoiler: Linzi quest

Show

I really wish your response to her embezzling funds from you could be to both very supportive of her endeavour, but still call her out on embezzling and not asking for a proper stipend. I feel like I should be able to do both.

I find myself far less liking of Octavia. That may have a lot to do with so many possible interactions around her having the baron(ess) fawning over her oh so prettiness, she also doesn't seem... interesting at all. The one time I heard her say something was her calling Jubilost a slaver for having paid servants.

[Firechanter]

The reason for the difference in AC between 35 and 39 seems to be a Shield spell. He doesn't have that one up from round 1, but decides to cast that at some point during the fight. Maybe in my case I got a lucky interrupt. Some of the other excess points might be Mage Armor. The rest, however, is apparently blunt stat inflation, as the game likes to throw +6 Natural Armour at monsters left and right.

On Challenging without adjustments, the bugger actually has 41 AC.

You're right that the reference to burn marks is rather misleading. I hadn't quite realized -- I remembered from tabletop rules that Wisps deal electric damage so I buffed accordingly.

--

As for the companions: well, so far I find most of their personalities not very interesting. The banter and voiceset lines quickly becomes repetitive. I kept Linzi in the party because I found her lines rather cute and endearing, but the novelty is starting to wear off. Okay, and since my party includes two Mercs that don't get any campfire banter, it's basically always Linzi interviewing Octavia and Tristian, so that is getting old quickly.
Least of all I like Valerie. Admittedly, I removed her from the party mostly because she's a gimp and my Merc can do the tanking job better, but her personality is so bland and annoying at the same time that I really never had any heartache about it. And she's intended as main love interest for male PCs? Poor sods!

[Narkis]

I liked the existence of the Viscount. Kinda reminded me of the optional liches you could find on some random basements in Athkatla. I really hope there's something similar hidden in some corner somewhere later. There's nothing quite like taking a wrong turn at level 9ish and being greeted by a Time Stop, then returning much, much later and killing it. I also don't see the lack of retreat as much of a problem. Loading the last save serves pretty much the same purpose.

That said, I think I'll be putting the game aside for a while. I really enjoy it, but I've been encountering more and more minorly annoying bugs and I dread encountering a game-breaking one after I've sunk many more hours into it. I'm still early enough into it that I don't mind restarting after it's fixed. Not to mention I'm pretty sure the patches I've already downloaded have been bigger than the original game was.

[Maryring]

From what I remember, the Count casts shield in response to being hit with magic missile. So your usual strategy for bypassing the insanely high AC is countered. I don't know about the count specifically since I wasn't level 5 when I beat him, but there's other named wisp fights later on, at around level 6, and the caster level of the shield spell on those wisp fights is 17. So trying to dispel the shield won't happen either.

[Eldonauran]

Hmm, question to those who are using the Automatic kingdom managing system? How much does it actually do? Do you have any control over kingdom land acquisition? Does it free you up completely to adventure or do you have to report back to town occasionally? I am VERY hesitant to turn it on without knowing.

[Firechanter]

Just fast-forwarded through a youtube vid of a guy who's running a Solo playthrough. I.e. ditch the companions asap, XP sharing Off of course, and then powerlevel. He's using a Plumekith Aasimar, Monk Rogue, Dex build. So basically he's running back and forth a lot, kiting the enemies with his fast movement and whittling them down with crossbow and fist attacks. While taking on the Stag Fort he made his levelup to 8th. The concept is basically functional, though he did have to reload quite a number of times in some combats. Anyway, the fights often take forever and it's a routine that I find extremely boring.

So, what I wanted to ask is, what do you think -- can you think of other builds that can Solo the game, ideally without extreme kiting?

[Eldonauran]

So, what I wanted to ask is, what do you think -- can you think of other builds that can Solo the game, ideally without extreme kiting?

Yeah, but it depends on what you mean by "solo". Just one "PC"? Sure. Just a single character? You could probably solo the entire game if you save scrubbed enough.

A monster tactician inquisitor could probably solo the game between their minute/level summon ability, an animal companion, and careful character building/equipment. Get enough ranks in UMD and you can use wands, scrolls, and other items to fill in the gaps you need. Possibly so could a Herald Caller Cleric through a similar setup, though I think the Monster Tactician has the edge due to teamwork feats on their summons.

[Tome]

Hmm, question to those who are using the Automatic kingdom managing system? How much does it actually do? Do you have any control over kingdom land acquisition? Does it free you up completely to adventure or do you have to report back to town occasionally? I am VERY hesitant to turn it on without knowing.

Reports I've read indicate that it leaves you with no control and the AI is very bad at managing things. The advice seems to be to just set kingdom difficulty to easy and turn on kingdom immortality instead.

[Crustypeanut]

@Tome:

Thats what I'm doing. Easy and Immortal is making kingdom building actually fun. Plus I don't want it to ruin my game if something bad happens, because the time management aspect of the kingdom itself is.. kinda crap.

[Platinius]

If there is a lesson to be learned from this, it is the following:

Being King is everything in every sense with the strong exception of easy

Q has the right of it again

[Firechanter]

But... but... I learned that...

it's good to be the king.

[Platinius]

But... but... I learned that...

it's good to be the king.

I never said it isn't good to be the king, only that it isn't easy XD

[Spore]

Anyone know a way how to know how I can tell which parts of the necklace in chapter 1 I've already found? Because I have 5/7 and I'd like the item as I'm very collecting focussed. I assume I have any from the Sycamore. Is there a way to differentiate them via ingame means?

[Longes]

Anyone know a way how to know how I can tell which parts of the necklace in chapter 1 I've already found? Because I have 5/7 and I'd like the item as I'm very collecting focussed. I assume I have any from the Sycamore. Is there a way to differentiate them via ingame means?

No. All parts of the collectible are identical. If you want you can go through the save files and try and search for the location where a collectible is still present.

[Longes]

On what level and difficulty?

I play on Challenging with Normal Enemies and rarely have a problem with hitting. Regular mobs go down fast enough. Skeletal Champions were a bit of a problem since I had hardly any blunt weapons.

I had warning about the Viscount and didn't tackle him until after the Stag Lord, so I was level 5 already. Okay, having a Paladin Main certainly helps, being fear-immune and all. Yes he was annoyingly hard to hit with his 35AC, and he somehow managed to dispel my Communal Resist Energy (or it was a bug), but still he didn't stand a chance. I simply had someone cast a new Resist Energy on my Pala and the rest was just whittling him down. The killing blow was dealt by my Archer, by the way.
Long story short, I think I needn't have waited as long and could just as well have tackled him at level 4 or even 3, it just would have taken longer.

The nastiest fight in Chapter 1 would be the Wererats. Had to try that one several times. It becomes a lot easier if you manage to disable the tripwire.

Resist Energy runs out after absorbing some amount of damage.

[Maryring]

No. Protection from Energy runs out. Resist Energy does not.

[Eldonauran]

Reports I've read indicate that it leaves you with no control and the AI is very bad at managing things. The advice seems to be to just set kingdom difficulty to easy and turn on kingdom immortality instead.

Yeah, that is what I thought. I only asked because I was thinking about any future games I run for just the adventuring lulz. As of right now, I've got a pretty good handle of the kingdom management system and started unlocking my additional advisors. I've got 2 out of the additional ones and just need the rest to give me more ability to resolve issues timely.

Though, I've got a bone to pick with the River Maiden. I've driven her off twice already and she keeps coming back. I want a quest to personally go after her and put her down. She is becoming a real pain in my rear end. "YOU AGAIN! RAGAHSEGHGEHD! ... I need My Priest to be doing something ELSE right now!"

Anyway... I had an interesting experience with the Hunterslodge. I intentionally waited a week or two before I went to address it and the issues with the ... sickness happened before I could go out there. I found out the source before hand and yet the quest updated with something happening at the Hunter's Lodge dinner BEFORE I even went there. Minor issue but nothing 'game breaking'. The adventure went on anyway.

[Kaptin Keen]

I can't beat Fredero. And I even seem to be attacking faster than him, making me higher level, which I just find incredibly offensive. However, I might be trying too soon. But with 37 AC and +14 to attack at level 6, I honestly feel I should be able to beat the guy.

[Renegade Paladin]

When the goblins move into Oleg's and you go to confront them, I don't care that the mission says to get them out without violence if possible. Kill them all, and then kill the hill giant. Because if you do what the mission says and let them get away, that freaking giant will destroy your kingdom inside a week.

[Firechanter]

Duly noted.

Not that I would ever have contemplated appeasing those murderous little psychopaths anyway.

[VexingFool]

Just fast-forwarded through a youtube vid of a guy who's running a Solo playthrough. I.e. ditch the companions asap, XP sharing Off of course, and then powerlevel. He's using a Plumekith Aasimar, Monk Rogue, Dex build. So basically he's running back and forth a lot, kiting the enemies with his fast movement and whittling them down with crossbow and fist attacks. While taking on the Stag Fort he made his levelup to 8th. The concept is basically functional, though he did have to reload quite a number of times in some combats. Anyway, the fights often take forever and it's a routine that I find extremely boring.

So, what I wanted to ask is, what do you think -- can you think of other builds that can Solo the game, ideally without extreme kiting?

Been soloing with a build that seems to work pretty well with no kiting but uses/abuses an animal companion. I was level-8 at the end of Act 1 and am almost level-13 at the end of Act 2. The inspiration for the build may be from the same guy as you mentioned, as the original build had plumekith aasimar as a race also. I made mine human so my stats are a little lower but I have more skill points for a bit more flexibility. Defender of the True World Druid-13 / Vivisectionist Alchemist-2 / Traditional Monk-2 / Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor-3 using a Smilodon companion. Have Perception, Trickery, Persuasion and UMD maxed out with at least 3 ranks in mobility and a scattering of other skills.

Definitely some growing pains in the beginning but not having too much difficulty now. The Smilodon pretty much wrecks everything while I keep him buffed and flank for sneak attacks. The only fight I have had trouble with is the 3x Greater Enraged Owlbears, everything else has been pretty easy. I am down to 6 charges on my wand of mage armor and have been unable to find or buy a replacement so my Smilodon may have 4 less AC soon.

[Kaptin Keen]

Yesterday, I found the owlbears.

They literally one-shot (not literally, but she went down in one round) my fully buffed tank. Level 7, full plate armor +1, +1 towershield, every buff spell in my repertoire including blur and aid and ... everything. Bam, dead on the first round. So that was fun =)

Other than that, the Swamp Witch area is fun, and has interesting quests and so on. Haven't finished yet - since I died - but it's definitely not bad. Except for the owlbears =)

First time I was here the wisp in the well also completely destroyed me. I didn't have resist energy yet, so that was a wipe.

[Firechanter]

I wonder if there are any hard counters built into the game against those owlbears. Like, spells that take the fight out of them reliably. Hold Animal won't work (b/c Magical Beasts) and Hold Monster is too high-level for the time you encounter them. Some PF spells that would have a chance of working simply aren't implemented. Any suggestions?

[Kaptin Keen]

Good question - how about fear? I don't recall the spell description, and I'm at work so I can't check. But enraged sounds (slightly) like they might get a bonus to will saves. Entangle, but they're too strong for that to work reliably. Maybe entangle, tho? I think even on a save it slows, right? So you could kite. I might actually experiment with that =)