The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[liquidformat]

On the subject of monster gestalt, my preference is:
- RHD on one side
- LA on both sides (i.e. apply LA after all HD calculations)
- allow LA buyoff

That seems oddly restrictive to apply LA to both sides...

[OgresAreCute]

That seems oddly restrictive to apply LA to both sides...

Yeah, LA is a hard sell compared to Fighter levels. It's even worse when compared to progression in two classes (which probably won't be fighter).

[Nifft]

That seems oddly restrictive to apply LA to both sides...

LA-on-one-side is a cheap way to reward stacking focus, which serves to favor specializing instead of diversifying.

I already know what rewarding focus looks like -- it looks like non-Gestalt D&D.

Gestalt is either about handling multiple roles, or about shoring up defenses & making lower-tier classes appear (as the passive side of an active/passive gestalt) -- again, LA-on-one-side rewards the opposite.

The balance I find works best to allow some LA but not allow mono-focus-stacking is to put LA on both sides, but then allow the LA to be bought off. That permits small LA (+1 mostly, +2 sometimes) but doens't allow LA to dominate classes. This isn't a house rule, by the way: the Gestalt rules only talk about putting classes on each side, so the only RAW-compliant place for LA and RHD is on top of both classes.

I houserule RHD to go on one side because I find them less abusable, and I want to run a more monster-inclusive game.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The LA-on-one-side school implicitly uses monster classes. That's why it's about as RAW as LA-on-both-sides.

[Nifft]

The LA-on-one-side school implicitly uses monster classes. That's why it's about as RAW as LA-on-both-sides.

When I've seen it, it's about Template stacking, and not at all monster classes.

Maybe only allowing monster classes would be okay?

But not Templates.

[OgresAreCute]

When I've seen it, it's about Template stacking, and not at all monster classes.

Maybe only allowing monster classes would be okay?

But not Templates.

Messing around with Templates//Beatstick gestalt you can get some pretty funny numbers with dungeoncrasher and stacking +STR templates. I doubt it's really going to be a problem in a game where that is appropriate though.

[Nifft]

Messing around with Templates//Beatstick gestalt you can get some pretty funny numbers with dungeoncrasher and stacking +STR templates. I doubt it's really going to be a problem in a game where that is appropriate though.

Right, the problem was with T1 casters stacking more effective T1 casting via templates and ignoring all non-T1 classes.

The problem I've seen was not about any kind of Fighters being too relevant.

[javcs]

At low levels, yeah, the SLAs are most relevant.

At high levels, the immunities are most relevant:

Those are most relevant at higher levels, where enemies are more likely to have energy drain attacks or death ray eyes.

While the immunities are more relevant at higher levels, they're "just" immunities (meaning they're passive defenses) - plus anyone with a half decent Knowledge(The Planes) check is going to recognize that you have them - and being two or three class levels behind is a much tougher sell. Your first two or three classes levels are a far more equitable grade for two outsider RHD and respectable stat mods than class levels 15, 16, and 17, for example.

[Nifft]

While the immunities are more relevant at higher levels, they're "just" immunities (meaning they're passive defenses) - plus anyone with a half decent Knowledge(The Planes) check is going to recognize that you have them - and being two or three class levels behind is a much tougher sell. Your first two or three classes levels are a far more equitable grade for two outsider RHD and respectable stat mods than class levels 15, 16, and 17, for example.

Monsters recognizing your immunities is mostly irrelevant -- a vampire can't swap out its energy drain overnight, so being immune to energy drain will be useful when you fight that monster.

Not needing to expend resources to cover those (significant) immunities is part of the high-level value proposition. You spend 3 levels to get 2 Outsider RHD and a bunch of immunities, plus some modest stat boosts. The immunities are not "just" immunities, they're money in your pocket which you can spend on other things. Probably not worth it for everyone, but that's fine. Ogre isn't worth it for everyone either.

[OgresAreCute]

Right, the problem was with T1 casters stacking more effective T1 casting via templates and ignoring all non-T1 classes.

The problem I've seen was not about any kind of Fighters being too relevant.

For some reason I didn't think of that at all. I guess spending one of my level tracks on +INT for my wizard casting was just too uninspired for my brain to even consider.

[javcs]

Monsters recognizing your immunities is mostly irrelevant -- a vampire can't swap out its energy drain overnight, so being immune to energy drain will be useful when you fight that monster.

Not needing to expend resources to cover those (significant) immunities is part of the high-level value proposition. You spend 3 levels to get 2 Outsider RHD and a bunch of immunities, plus some modest stat boosts. The immunities are not "just" immunities, they're money in your pocket which you can spend on other things. Probably not worth it for everyone, but that's fine. Ogre isn't worth it for everyone either.

Oh, they're absolutely useful immunities.

The problem is, it is a lot easier to spend money on passive defenses, such as immunities, than it is to use money to compensate for having 14 class levels instead of 17 class levels, for example.

Defenses are expensive to spend gold on, but the equivalent of multiple class levels in the teens are even more expensive.

[liquidformat]

Monsters recognizing your immunities is mostly irrelevant -- a vampire can't swap out its energy drain overnight, so being immune to energy drain will be useful when you fight that monster.

Not needing to expend resources to cover those (significant) immunities is part of the high-level value proposition. You spend 3 levels to get 2 Outsider RHD and a bunch of immunities, plus some modest stat boosts. The immunities are not "just" immunities, they're money in your pocket which you can spend on other things. Probably not worth it for everyone, but that's fine. Ogre isn't worth it for everyone either.

I don't think the amount of money you are saving by having these immunities equates to an extra class level. And as has been repeatedly stated in these threads this isn't a game that rewards defense at the cost of offence...

LA-on-one-side is a cheap way to reward stacking focus, which serves to favor specializing instead of diversifying.

I already know what rewarding focus looks like -- it looks like non-Gestalt D&D.

Gestalt is either about handling multiple roles, or about shoring up defenses & making lower-tier classes appear (as the passive side of an active/passive gestalt) -- again, LA-on-one-side rewards the opposite.

The balance I find works best to allow some LA but not allow mono-focus-stacking is to put LA on both sides, but then allow the LA to be bought off. That permits small LA (+1 mostly, +2 sometimes) but doens't allow LA to dominate classes. This isn't a house rule, by the way: the Gestalt rules only talk about putting classes on each side, so the only RAW-compliant place for LA and RHD is on top of both classes.

I houserule RHD to go on one side because I find them less abusable, and I want to run a more monster-inclusive game.

I have not experienced this type of template abuse in any of the gestalt games I play, then again they typically have explicitly placed one template limit per character. Personally I think the one template limit is a much better way to handle this. A lot of the gestalt games I have been in have been great because they open up using monster races to being functional because the crushing WoTC LAs now don't hurt so much...

[martixy]

I'm in the +1 camp on Lumi. Low-ish, but yea.

A few of good stats, offset by RHD and a good SLA or two.
Body of Light is also Su, not Ex, so technically circumventable by certain effects, which is a consideration I didn't see mentioned.

P.S. I run a gestalt game. My rule is: All LA and RHD before class levels, in whatever order you like, but levels with HD cannot be bought off.

[Nifft]

For some reason I didn't think of that at all. I guess spending one of my level tracks on +INT for my wizard casting was just too uninspired for my brain to even consider.

Yeah or a Phrenic Half-Fey Half-Celestial Half-Dragon Druid using psionic attacks as an owl, being immune to Enchantments and so forth, then adding on more templates (Dark Creature, Half-Elemental, whatever) over levels to get more Druid-focused perks.

Nothing wrong with Druids, but if I'm running a Gestalt game then I'd much rather see a Swordsage//Druid or a Totemist//Druid than what's effectively a single-class Druid with higher DCs.

Defenses are expensive to spend gold on, but the equivalent of multiple class levels in the teens are even more expensive.

Depends on the class. You'd be correct about 3 levels of a T1 class being worth more than 2 outsider RHD + 1 LA, but I'm not certain that is true for all T3 / T4 classes.

I don't think the amount of money you are saving by having these immunities equates to an extra class level. And as has been repeatedly stated in these threads this isn't a game that rewards defense at the cost of offence...

Sure, but the Dead condition prevents all possible offense, and the Dominated condition turns you into a liability. Having no defense against enemy action can make you worse than useless.

I have not experienced this type of template abuse in any of the gestalt games I play, then again they typically have explicitly placed one template limit per character.

So you also nerf, but you nerf differently.

I don't think your nerf is better than my nerf, but yours clearly works for you and that's fine: you keep the rules sane your way, I'll keep them sane my way.

You might talk to your DM about why the one-template rule was established -- it sounds like your DM might have seen the same discussions back on the WotC boards that prompted me to make my house rules, and might be able to point you to examples of potential abuse which are more relevant to your specific games.

[liquidformat]

I have a couple dms one does max one template across the board even non gestalt and the other just stipulates only one template that has 'half' in the name. I think the second one does it more for the question of identifying what your above monster is... I mean seriously a Phrenic Half-Fey Half-Celestial Half-Dragon, Dark Creature, Half-Elemental what exactly is that, and how exactly is a creature that has five lineages half anything?

[Prime32]

Opinions on applying the "lesser planetouched" rule to Lumi? (change type to Humanoid [planetouched], still vulnerable to effects that target Outsiders)

[martixy]

I have a couple dms one does max one template across the board even non gestalt and the other just stipulates only one template that has 'half' in the name. I think the second one does it more for the question of identifying what your above monster is... I mean seriously a Phrenic Half-Fey Half-Celestial Half-Dragon, Dark Creature, Half-Elemental what exactly is that, and how exactly is a creature that has five lineages half anything?

But half the fun of templates is creating ungodly mongrels that are half a dozen different halves. :D

[DeTess]

Opinions on applying the "lesser planetouched" rule to Lumi? (change type to Humanoid [planetouched], still vulnerable to effects that target Outsiders)

correct me if I'm wrong, but they aren't really 'planetouched', are they? The planetouched races are clearly human(oid) with a dash of their respective planes caused by having an outsider ancestor. Lumi are more like Modrons or demons or angles, in that they're an expression of their own plane, as opposed to the bastard-children that Tieflings or Aasimar are.

[javcs]

Depends on the class. You'd be correct about 3 levels of a T1 class being worth more than 2 outsider RHD + 1 LA, but I'm not certain that is true for all T3 / T4 classes.

Eh ... if it's T3/T4 and not a full 9 caster, it's there on the basis of its class features.
If it's an initiator, it is down a full maneuver level. If it's an incarnum class it is down essentia and probably at least one chakra.
If it is neither a primary caster, initiator, nor incarnum class, then it's even more dependent upon class features - and it will likely be late on PRC entry as well.
If it's something like Rogue or Scout, it's down two advances of Sneak Attack or Skirmish, and is still three levels behind on its other class features.

I have a couple dms one does max one template across the board even non gestalt and the other just stipulates only one template that has 'half' in the name. I think the second one does it more for the question of identifying what your above monster is... I mean seriously a Phrenic Half-Fey Half-Celestial Half-Dragon, Dark Creature, Half-Elemental what exactly is that, and how exactly is a creature that has five lineages half anything?

Being fair, Dark and Phrenic are fully compatible with each other and would not exclude each other or the half-templates in a logical world.
As for the various half templates ... sure, they're all inherited, but there are also ways to get at least some of them as acquired templates.

[Inevitability]

Opinions on applying the "lesser planetouched" rule to Lumi? (change type to Humanoid [planetouched], still vulnerable to effects that target Outsiders)

If you mean their HD gets changed to Humanoid, then I'd argue that's a pretty clear +0. If you are instead talking about removing the HD altogether (seeing as lesser planetouched are by definition ECL 1) in addition to changing their type, then I'd probably go with +1.

[Nifft]

Eh ... if it's T3/T4 and not a full 9 caster, it's there on the basis of its class features.

This thread is about T3 as the point at which we're supposed to evaluate balance, so yeah.

And at T3/T4, sometimes the Lumi is going to be a solid choice.

Like you're behind on maximum Sneak Attack, but you can glitterdust 3/day which means you can be an archery Rogue and get more full-attack Rapid Shot Sneak Attacks per day, and it balances out or puts you ahead. Or if blindness is a common ailment, yet you're never blind, then you make more Sneak Attacks on rounds when you'd otherwise suffer a miss chance (and lose both 50% of your hits and 100% of your Sneak Attack).

[javcs]

This thread is about T3 as the point at which we're supposed to evaluate balance, so yeah.

And at T3/T4, sometimes the Lumi is going to be a solid choice.

Like you're behind on maximum Sneak Attack, but you can glitterdust 3/day which means you can be an archery Rogue and get more full-attack Rapid Shot Sneak Attacks per day, and it balances out or puts you ahead. Or if blindness is a common ailment, yet you're never blind, then you make more Sneak Attacks on rounds when you'd otherwise suffer a miss chance (and lose both 50% of your hits and 100% of your Sneak Attack).

If blindness is a sufficiently common ailment that immunity to blindness is a major factor in your ability to Rogue, then you probably shouldn't be a rogue in that campaign in the first place.


Yes, glitterdust 3/day should be useful for a Rogue. On the other hand, its caster level doesn't scale and you don't have a Charisma bonus to help your Save DC - in the teens, Glitterdust will help a little with an invisible target, but it's not going to successfully blind anybody.
I'm doubtful that it's worth 3 class/PRC levels in the teens. At level 5, sure. Level 15? Not so much.

[Nifft]

If blindness is a sufficiently common ailment that immunity to blindness is a major factor in your ability to Rogue, then you probably shouldn't be a rogue in that campaign in the first place.


Yes, glitterdust 3/day should be useful for a Rogue. On the other hand, its caster level doesn't scale and you don't have a Charisma bonus to help your Save DC - in the teens, Glitterdust will help a little with an invisible target, but it's not going to successfully blind anybody.
I'm doubtful that it's worth 3 class/PRC levels in the teens. At level 5, sure. Level 15? Not so much.

~Obviously~ each single thing by itself isn't worth three levels, but equally obvious you don't get just one single thing, and you don't pay 3 levels -- you pay one level (LA) and get two RHD instead of levels, which are full-BAB, 8 skill points, and all-good-saves.

Blindness and invisibility impact Rogues more than normal, which is why I brought that example up. Lumi have (active and passive) options against Hide-based concealment, against invisibility, against mundane darkness, against blindness, and against being flanked when they try to mix it up in melee. They suck at stealth, but they're above par at delivering Sneak Attacks -- so they get 1.5 fewer dice, but they get to use their SA dice more often. That's a fair trade-off.

[javcs]

~Obviously~ each single thing by itself isn't worth three levels, but equally obvious you don't get just one single thing, and you don't pay 3 levels -- you pay one level (LA) and get two RHD instead of levels, which are full-BAB, 8 skill points, and all-good-saves.

Blindness and invisibility impact Rogues more than normal, which is why I brought that example up. Lumi have (active and passive) options against Hide-based concealment, against invisibility, against mundane darkness, against blindness, and against being flanked when they try to mix it up in melee. They suck at stealth, but they're above par at delivering Sneak Attacks -- so they get 1.5 fewer dice, but they get to use their SA dice more often. That's a fair trade-off.

At LA +1, you're 3 class/PRC levels behind a 0 RHD +0 LA race.
Outsider RHD are pretty good, true.

As I said - at ECL 5, 2 class levels on top of 2 RHD and 1 LA is pretty solid tradeoff with what the Lumi gives you.
At ECL 15 ... only having 12 class levels - and thus only having 12 levels worth of class/PRC features, what the Lumi gives doesn't look quite as attractive a tradeoff with that LA in play - it is still definitely a solid +0, but it's not a +1 anymore.

[Celestia]

+0 seems fine, though I wouldn't object to +1.

After reading some of the other comments, I have to change my answer. +0, and I would object to +1.

Though, I'd say +1 with LA buy off is fair, if someone were to go that route in s game.

[RedWarlock]

Agree with the +1 on the Lumi.

As to the lesser planetouched comment, that’s a pure downgrade, because you lose the outsider HD benefits, which are part of its power. Those 2 HD matter to some degree, and then everything else on top..

[GreatWyrmGold]

Relevant: https://youtu.be/T4sVmnfz9Wk?t=27s Especially since the monsters mentioned at the point I linked are all from the current book we're doing; that is MMIII.

I'm pretty sure the fourth one is from MM2, actually.

I don't think the amount of money you are saving by having these immunities equates to an extra class level. And as has been repeatedly stated in these threads this isn't a game that rewards defense at the cost of offence...

Not if the defense is great enough. And remember, the immunities might be the biggest thing at 17th level, but it's not the only thing; the lumi has a lot of other perks, too. (Glitterdust never becomes useless; making invisible things visible is always occasionally useful, and you might be able to blind the odd enemy, which is definitely worth it.)
Lumi don't have any one ability which would be worth LA on its own...but they have plenty of useful abilities. Good ability bonuses, decent SLAs, a heap of immunities...all together, I'm confident they add up to more than two levels of class features.

correct me if I'm wrong, but they aren't really 'planetouched', are they? The planetouched races are clearly human(oid) with a dash of their respective planes caused by having an outsider ancestor. Lumi are more like Modrons or demons or angles, in that they're an expression of their own plane, as opposed to the bastard-children that Tieflings or Aasimar are.

I suspect Prime's motivation was more mechanical than flavorful. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
If this happened, though? Between getting stuck with two crappy HD and losing some of those immunities (including the ones most useful at lower levels), the Planetouched!Lumi would be seriously nerfed. I'd say it would earn +0 at that point.

[liquidformat]

Not if the defense is great enough. And remember, the immunities might be the biggest thing at 17th level, but it's not the only thing; the lumi has a lot of other perks, too. (Glitterdust never becomes useless; making invisible things visible is always occasionally useful, and you might be able to blind the odd enemy, which is definitely worth it.)
Lumi don't have any one ability which would be worth LA on its own...but they have plenty of useful abilities. Good ability bonuses, decent SLAs, a heap of immunities...all together, I'm confident they add up to more than two levels of class features.

I am sorry but no, they have a singular good SLA and a second one that is ok up until you hit something around level 5 when it dramatically drops off in usefulness. And while yes glitterdust never becomes completely useless because there might be the odd couple of times after level 10 where you need it to make things visible because for whatever reason not everyone has that is its only use at level 10+. Saying you are going to use a whole round on glitterdust for the off chance of the enemy rolling a natural 1 on their save at 10+ to be blinded is an insult to everyone here. It isn't a good nor a reasonable use of action economy period, and if it is then tacking an +1 LA onto the character is doing no one any favors.

[unseenmage]

As to the Lumi discussion, sure outsider HD are good but only when compared to other monster HD.

Compared to class levels, it is my understanding, that any monster HD are hot garbage compared to actually advancing class abilities because class abilities need to be advanced to remain a worthwhile investment.

That said, put me down for +0, though a strong +0, for the Lumi.

[Inevitability]

The Lumi poll!

+0 LA: 8 votes
+1 LA: 14 votes

A surprisingly large majority votes for +1, it seems. LA has been changed.