The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[Inevitability]

Lurking Strangler

A beholder, minus nine eyestalks and the entire main body. Also very complicated to rate.

The reason for that is that at low levels (2-4) lurking stranglers are awesome. Flight, Tiny size, +8 dexterity, and the ability to fire off two save-or-loses per round makes for one considerable threat, for obvious reasons. The thing is: those two save-or-loses only work on foes with less than 5-6 HD, meaning they start getting consistently useless from level 4 on, and are basically worthless past level 5. Without its eye rays, I don't think I'd assign the lurking strangler anything more than -0 LA.

Initially, I assigned +1 here, but I must disagree now. The strangler's lack of speech, limbs, or body slots mean that it's struggling even at ECL 2. While I'm not entirely sure I agree with -0* (the asterisk referring to the eye rays), I'll follow the majority and assign just that.

[Lapak]

This one suffers more than any other monster seen so far from 'lack of body parts.' I can't see it using equipment of any kind - armor, weapons, even consumables like potions. No hands, no body, no mouth - that's enough in my view to cancel out the advantages it gets and make it +0 at best in its most favorable level range; combined with the hard cap on its major upside I would call this one -0 without a backward glance.

[ViperMagnum357]

Lurking Strangler: oh look, a reason to play a living character with no neck, ya know, like a Lumi.

More seriously, it is not just the lack of hands and body slots, it is those factored in with a creature with only 3 actual attacks, all three of which fail to work on 4 types outright: Undead, Construct, Ooze, and Plant, plus one or two effects not working on 3 other types: Dragon, Elemental, and Vermin. That is not getting into cases of individual immunities for particular enemy species, or the fact that 2 of your attacks cap out around 5-6 HD total.

I strongly disagree about rating LA based on a particular range for a character: if we are going to do that, then this becomes an exercise in futility, because every entry would be predicated on a particular range and require a separate scale, defeating the purpose of this thread: to establish a new, more balanced baseline so monsters can be playable as balanced PCs. Giving every entry its own scale where it is 'useful' is diametrically opposed to the stated goals and purpose of the thread.

Having said that, the Lurking Strangler also makes a piss-poor caster, coughing up 2 Aberration RHD in return for flight, 2 special attacks that will scale out around ECL 6 or so, 1 special attack that needs to be entirely built around with martial support, and mental ability adjustments of -6, 0, and 0. This is a monster that should remain a monster, unless a player wants to build a one trick pony around a strangulation assassin. I say LA -0, with no qualifiers.

[Blue Jay]

What happens if a creature wakes up before the Strangle attack has run to completion? Does the creature get some kind of check to escape?

Anyway, I agree with Inevitability's initial assessment: LA +1 makes sense at low levels because of 2 spells per turn, but once it starts facing foes with more than 5 HD, its racial abilities are mostly superfluous.

I think I'll just vote for LA +0.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's hard to rate, alright. Can't think of a creature that scales worse than a lurking strangler. These critters will suck so badly at ECL 5+, you'll regret your campaign made it past the ECL 2-3 range. The obvious suggestion is to add 3 RHD and assign -0, but that's not possible, so... LA +0?

Lurking stranglers have one natural attack and no limbs. They can't even use mouthpick weapons or (arguably) soulmelds to gain natural attacks. It's virtually impossible to advance any of their racial abilities, and most classes require anatomical features that lurking stranglers simply lack. At best, you can get (at-will/Persistent) alter self, because there are some nice low-HD abberation forms (choker, maybe?), but that (arguably) negates every single one of your racial abilities and usually requires ECL 5+ to begin with.

If we assign -0, we're saying that a lurking strangler with a class level is a good decent ECL 2 character. That's not the case. On the other hand, if we don't assign -0, we suggest that a lurking strangler is a decent character at any point past ECL 5. That's also not the case.

I'm going to be slightly opportunistic and say that the lack of anatomy--limbs, mouth, natural reach, attacks, and so forth--would hurt so much even at ECL 3-4 that an overall LA of -0 is accurate over a sufficiently large portion of this creature's playable range that it's the best value to assign. I wouldn't be opposed to assigning an asterisk for ultra-bad scaling at LA +0, though.

Or: "LA +1 w/ free buyoff". That way you lose the LA at ECL 5, slightly addressing the scaling issue.

[javcs]

I'd go with -0*.

At the handful of low levels when its abilities are useful, the lack of limbs hurts even more and you're too low level to be able to afford the ways to compensate for a lack of limbs.
Plus, you can't talk.

[Caelestion]

Just two eyes on either end of a neck-stalk? No appendages, no way to communicate, no use. LA –* (see below).

[Mike Miller]

Lurking strangler is an oddball, for sure. I think +0* is appropriate due to the poor scaling.

[Nifft]

Sleep at-will is good exactly as long as you expect to face living foes with 4 HD or less. That's heavily campaign dependent -- I could see an E6 game basically never going beyond that point, with only rare high-powered enemies being immune to the effect. But that'd be a notable exception.

Thinking about the sorts of monster mixes I tend to use, I'd expect the effect to be worthless in 50% or more combats around 6th level. That includes enemies which are immune to fear & sleep, as well as enemies which are 5 or more HD. Before 6th level, the effects would have some effect most of the time.

The lack of limbs is absolutely crippling. It has no mouth yet it must scream.

Verdict: LA --*, aka LA "No."


-- -- --

I want one of these things with an eye and a hand, connected by a sinew. It can be the Vecnaberration.

[Caelestion]

LA –* is what I meant, yes.

[javcs]

I concur with the sentiments of LA Not Playable.

[No brains]

The lack of limbs is absolutely crippling. It has no mouth yet it must scream.

I want one of these things with an eye and a hand, connected by a sinew. It can be the Vecnaberration.

Yeah, but it would have an easy time escaping LA. I have no brains and I must grumble... Your pun makes me feel better tho.

Eye-bolas are weird and make me want a pretzel. Maybe +0* will say it best. It's going to take some severe DM work to get these guys to mesh with a party and even then it might not be 'good'.

[Nifft]

Eye-bolas are weird

Oooo!

Eye-bolas might cause flesh-rotting (prevented by disease immunity).

[Luccan]

It basicallt loses its advantage at a certain level and is otherwise almost entirely worthless, it can't even use any equipment without serious investment Even at T5 that would be bad. LA -0

[Zaq]

Oooo!

Eye-bolas might cause flesh-rotting (prevented by disease immunity).

They're OP if you get two of 'em together. That progression is not linear.

Pair-eye-bolas? Geddit? Geddit? LAUGH, DAMMIT!

[Celestia]

LA –* (see below).

Verdict: LA --*, aka LA "No."

I concur with the sentiments of LA Not Playable.

You all seem to be missing the point of the thread...

---------

I vote LA -0*. This thing is just terrible. Sure, you get a couple levels where your one trick pony show gets rave reviews, but then you quickly become insignificant and worthless, like the jock who peaks in high school and then spends the rest of his life as a used car salesman.

[javcs]

You all seem to be missing the point of the thread...

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I vote LA -0*. This thing is just terrible. Sure, you get a couple levels where your one trick pony show gets rave reviews, but then you quickly become insignificant and worthless, like the jock who peaks in high school and then spends the rest of his life as a used car salesman.

I'd already said -0*.
That's the closest rating we can give it, though -0* is kind of an inadequate description for how bad this thing is, IMO.

[Zaq]

You all seem to be missing the point of the thread...

---------

I vote LA -0*. This thing is just terrible. Sure, you get a couple levels where your one trick pony show gets rave reviews, but then you quickly become insignificant and worthless, like the jock who peaks in high school and then spends the rest of his life as a used car salesman.

I'd already said -0*.
That's the closest rating we can give it, though -0* is kind of an inadequate description for how bad this thing is, IMO.

Pretty much this. -0* is a fair rating for something that has basically no organs and insanely limited advancement potential.

To contradict myself a bit, though, I guess you could pull off Warlock? You've got the DEX for it, and my understanding is that critters are generally assumed to be able to use their innate body structures to handle somatic components (and if you feel the need to pay a feat for the privilege, Surrogate Spellcasting is a simple enough tax). And I guess you could technically make an Ardent or something (2 lost levels sucks, but Ardents famously get the ability to make up some ground with Practiced Manifester, and psionics just requires a mind, not any specific organs). Sure, sparrow hengeyokai is basically the exact same joke with worse maneuverability (I think? Maybe not even that?) and better/fewer lost HD, but these monsters don't have to be perfectly unique in terms of build capacity. Just usable. Still, having (approximately) two extremely narrow windows open to you doesn't get the monster out of the -0* pit it's in.

[GreatWyrmGold]

As to the Lumi discussion, sure outsider HD are good but only when compared to other monster HD.

Compared to class levels, it is my understanding, that any monster HD are hot garbage compared to actually advancing class abilities because class abilities need to be advanced to remain a worthwhile investment.

Well, yes. But outsider HD are pretty good HD compared to most class HD, and many people (myself included) argue that the Lumi's special abilities are a pretty good substitute for class features.

Lurking Strangler stuff

I'd go with something like -0⚠️, personally. Multiple save-or-loses per round, every round, seems pretty concerning at low levels (even without any weapons or armor or anything). Probably not worth LA, probably worth a warning.

Or: "LA +1 w/ free buyoff". That way you lose the LA at ECL 5, slightly addressing the scaling issue.

I mean, if we allow this kind of system tweak, this would be ideal...but it's basically "different LA at different levels," a can of worms I'd rather leave closed.

You all seem to be missing the point of the thread...

On one hand, I agree we shouldn't give up. On the other hand, this guy really is impossible to play well. Either it's useless, or it's game-breaking for a couple of levels and then useless. Even if it had no HD, it wouldn't be any good in an ECL 5+ game, because it doesn't have hands or a mouth or a body or...anything. Well, I guess if it didn't have any HD it could make an OK non-Intelligence caster. There's probably some way to use being very hard to hit and flight to partially compensate for equipment and communication issues.

[DeTess]

On one hand, I agree we shouldn't give up. On the other hand, this guy really is impossible to play well. Either it's useless, or it's game-breaking for a couple of levels and then useless. Even if it had no HD, it wouldn't be any good in an ECL 5+ game, because it doesn't have hands or a mouth or a body or...anything. Well, I guess if it didn't have any HD it could make an OK non-Intelligence caster. There's probably some way to use being very hard to hit and flight to partially compensate for equipment and communication issues.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the kind of situation -0* is for?

[Nifft]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the kind of situation -0* is for?

-0 means "this is below par". For some levels, it is far below par. For others, the fly speed and at-will SLAs are above par. You can't assign -0 in good faith when sometimes it should be +X instead.

* means "DM beware". That's certainly accurate, so you see it in both -0 and --*.

[Inevitability]

Assigning -0* for now, mostly because it seems to be the only value that properly reflects the strangler's power across all levels.

That said, I'm not entirely convinced the asterisk is in place. Usually it's reserved for abilities that are completely broken (like limitless spawn creation, or free wishes), not for something that is merely overpowered.

Perhaps a +0/-0 suggestion would be appropriate (since those are the same mechanics-wise, it wouldn't quite be two separate ratings), with a note to DMs and players that the strangler becomes useless around ECL 5?

[Zaq]

The * isn’t for the LS being overpowered. In this case, it’s the same * as the dryad or any other location-bound critter: “GM beware, because one or more aspects of this monster (in this case, extraordinarily limited ability to interact with the world) will make it extremely hard to fit into a campaign.”

[javcs]

-0 means "this is below par". For some levels, it is far below par. For others, the fly speed and at-will SLAs are above par. You can't assign -0 in good faith when sometimes it should be +X instead.

* means "DM beware". That's certainly accurate, so you see it in both -0 and --*.

It is only above par in terms of its combat ability for those three levels. And only against things that aren't RHD inflated out of reach or outright immune to its abilities. Which is going to cover a lot of things.
It still lacks the ability to speak and hands.


Edit: It is still pretty useless at the handful of levels where it is still capable of contributing in some combats. I think it's still a -0* at those few levels.

[Nifft]

It is only above par in terms of its combat ability for those three levels.

Nah, it's got a fly speed, which is significant in both combat and as utility.

It's also got a +12 Hide check at 2 HD, with Darkvision and +8 Spot -- with immunity to tripwires & pressure plates (thanks to the fly speed) it's an above-average scout.

The +4 Search would be a lot more appealing without the Int penalty. I'm going to ignore that bonus.

It can carry things by wrapping around them, with sufficient grip to strangle a humanoid to death. It's probably not going to carry much regularly, but it can pick things up and fly them around -- up to whatever 5 Str permits, which seems to be ~16 lbs as a light load.

In terms of communication, give the player a box of pipe cleaners and play linear-string-charades. (This may get annoying; that annoyance is included in the * rating.)

[javcs]

Nah, it's got a fly speed, which is significant in both combat and as utility.

It's also got a +12 Hide check at 2 HD, with Darkvision and +8 Spot -- with immunity to tripwires & pressure plates (thanks to the fly speed) it's an above-average scout.

The +4 Search would be a lot more appealing without the Int penalty. I'm going to ignore that bonus.

It can carry things by wrapping around them, with sufficient grip to strangle a humanoid to death. It's probably not going to carry much regularly, but it can pick things up and fly them around -- up to whatever 5 Str permits, which seems to be ~16 lbs as a light load.

In terms of communication, give the player a box of pipe cleaners and play linear-string-charades. (This may get annoying; that annoyance is included in the * rating.)

You forgot it is size Tiny - that's a x1/2 modifier on carrying limits. 8lb or less is the light load limit.


My point is, even when it's at its best, it still has major downsides, crippling even, and that level is far too low to reliably get any means of compensating for any of them, much less all of them.
I think that it's got enough downsides that it never crosses over into +0* territory, though there are a few levels where it's not as bad a -0*.


It could perhaps work as a familiar. But not as a PC. IMO.

[Nifft]

You forgot it is size Tiny - that's a x1/2 modifier on carrying limits. 8lb or less is the light load limit.

You forgot that Light load isn't the same as carry limit. But thanks for the size reminder.

My point is, even when it's at its best, it still has major downsides, crippling even, and that level is far too low to reliably get any means of compensating for any of them, much less all of them.
I think that it's got enough downsides that it never crosses over into +0* territory, though there are a few levels where it's not as bad a -0*.

It could perhaps work as a familiar. But not as a PC. IMO.

Sounds like we're only in disagreement about why it's inappropriate as a PC -- nobody seems to think that it's appropriate, not at any level range.

[Amidus Drexel]

You forgot that Light load isn't the same as carry limit. But thanks for the size reminder.

Actually, you can only fly if you're carrying a light load (or less, I suppose). It's functionally a carry limit for fliers. Still 8lbs isn't horrible, since Tiny gear is also lighter, though I won't argue it's good for the strangler either.

[Luccan]

As to the Lumi discussion, sure outsider HD are good but only when compared to other monster HD.

Compared to class levels, it is my understanding, that any monster HD are hot garbage compared to actually advancing class abilities because class abilities need to be advanced to remain a worthwhile investment.

That said, put me down for +0, though a strong +0, for the Lumi.

By this logic, anything with RHD without scaling abilities (like racial casting) should not get LA. Which doesn't seem to fit with previous threads, considering things like Troll got LA.

[zergling.exe]

Actually, you can only fly if you're carrying a light load (or less, I suppose). It's functionally a carry limit for fliers. Still 8lbs isn't horrible, since Tiny gear is also lighter, though I won't argue it's good for the strangler either.

I want to say that magical flight is exempt from the light load limit, but I'm having trouble finding a general rule for it. I know that the fly spell makes an exception for it, You only have 40 ft fly speed in medium+ armor or loads. Finding this post from Darrin 8 years ago, there is no real consistency for flight rules, just ones we like to make up.

There's a problem with the rules for flying. The rules say you can move at your indicated flight speed if you're carrying a light load. The rules never explicitly state what happens if you are not carrying a light load. It's not entirely clear if you move at a reduced rate (at the speed you would normally move while encumbered) or if you just drop out of the sky as soon as you go over your carrying limit.

Most of the methods for gaining flight state somewhere whether or not you can fly while encumbered and at what speed. At least, most of the fly spells do. Dragonborn of Bahumat or Improved Dragon Wings (RotD) state that you can't fly with a medium/heavy load, but make no mention of armor. Outsider Wings (RoF) let you fly with a medium/heavy load, but at a reduced speed. A creature with a flight speed usually states under the ability description under what conditions and speeds they can fly. There isn't a heckuva lot of consistency to any of it.

If you gained flight via some method that doesn't explicitly state what happens when you fly with a medium/heavy load... there is *nothing* in the SRD/rules that states what happens. It's a DM call.