The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[danielxcutter]

Now I want to run a party made entirely of Awakened animals who are valid wildshape forms who are all taking Druid levels.

I can't decide if it would be more amusing to refluff Wildshape so that druids with an animal base form can take a humanoid shape with it, it just leave it as-is and have the whole party constantly mimicking whatever PC's natural shape is best for the given moment. It's a flock of birds! No, a pack of wolves! A herd of mastodons! A nest of snakes!

I think the Fangshields Druid ACF does that?

[liquidformat]

I think the Fangshields Druid ACF does that?

It at least gives you hands growing out of your... shoulders or something freaky like that...

[Blue Jay]

It at least gives you hands growing out of your... shoulders or something freaky like that...

I think the hands should grow at the end of its trunk, so it would look like an Opabinia:

Spoiler: Image

Show

[Thurbane]

It at least gives you hands growing out of your... shoulders or something freaky like that...

You can grow hands at level 5, and assume Humanoid Wild Shape at level 7. Quite handy, really.

You can also chose to lose spontaneous SNA for spontaneous Cures at level 4, if you really want to.

[liquidformat]

You can grow hands at level 5, and assume Humanoid Wild Shape at level 7. Quite handy, really.

You can also chose to lose spontaneous SNA for spontaneous Cures at level 4, if you really want to.

I have always found humanoid form to be the most useless in terms of changing into it, especially if you don't get any of the abilities. Though getting two hands seems reasonably strong that at least adds in more attacks.

On a side note a gestalt beholder with arms growing out the side of its head is pretty comical.

[javcs]

I have always found humanoid form to be the most useless in terms of changing into it, especially if you don't get any of the abilities. Though getting two hands seems reasonably strong that at least adds in more attacks.

On a side note a gestalt beholder with arms growing out the side of its head is pretty comical.

The strengths of humanoid form include hands, opposable thumbs, and being able to (nominally) peaceably interact with the dominant Material Plane civilizations without the various issues associated with openly being a "monster".
Plus, it's a lot easier to utilize the gear of humanoid opponents.

[Inevitability]

Mindshredder

Yet Another Funky Aberration: this time with pseudo-mindsight and a wacky life cycle, not to mention a weird name.

Mindshredder Larva

As always, the youngest stages of a creature's life cycle are the most playable (which sadly isn't saying much). Larva have 2 RHD, okay stats (+4 con, +2 wis and dex, -4 cha and int), small size, two points of natural armor, and a short-range (20 ft.) mindsight-like ability that doesn't work on dumb things. Perhaps the most interesting part are their two natural tentacle attacks (said limbs are almost definitely not capable of tool use, by the way), that deal 1d6 damage and a point of wisdom damage. I could see it being interesting for, idk, a rogue who doesn't mind being useless out of combat? Obvious -0 LA, even though it's got low RHD.

If a mindshredder larva somehow survives for long enough to deal 20 points of wisdom damage, it can (but, if controlled by a smart player, won't) build a cocoon and transform into a...

Mindshredder Warrior

Large size and 21 strength, so at least it's a decent beatstick now. Or at least it would be, if it didn't have 7 aberration RHD. Apart from the mediocre chassis increases, the warrior has twice(!!!!!!11!!!!) the range on its Thought Sense, the ability to make huge jumps as a move action (which would be kinda neat if Sudden Leap hadn't become available six levels earlier as a swift action instead), and an increase on the wisdom damage from 1 to 1d2 points per attack. It's also got mediocre claws instead of mediocre tentacles now. Another -0 LA.

Mindshredder Zenthal

Zenthal, as in 'Zenthal the other party members an apology for playing this' (this is how funny I am at 11 PM, if people were wondering).

Medium size, 13 RHD and 8 strength remove all melee ability the warrior could at least pretend to have. But instead, it gets the Mighty Magicks of... 3/day Confusion, 3/day Hypnotic Pattern, and a +4 shield bonus to AC (of course, natural armor has gone down compared to the warrior too).

Also, the natural weapons are back to tentacles which deal a whole 1d4 wisdom damage now. Yeah, that's going to win fights. -0 LA.

[DeTess]

I think you've got a typo there saying the larvae get to do 1d6 wisdom damage. Assuming that's meant to be 1 point of wisdom damage, I'd say they're all -0 LA.

Edit: either you fixed it really quickly, or I just misread.

[Thurbane]

No arguments here, LA -0 all around.

Are these the ones that are described as the animals of the Mind Flayer realm, or am I thinking of something else? AFB right now...

[Nifft]

Mindshredder Larva

As always, the youngest stages of a creature's life cycle are the most playable (which sadly isn't saying much). Larva have 2 RHD, okay stats (+4 con, +2 wis and dex, -4 cha and int), small size, two points of natural armor, and a short-range (20 ft.) mindsight-like ability that doesn't work on dumb things. Perhaps the most interesting part are their two natural tentacle attacks (said limbs are almost definitely not capable of tool use, by the way), that deal 1d6 damage and a point of wisdom damage. I could see it being interesting for, idk, a rogue who doesn't mind being useless out of combat? Obvious -0 LA, even though it's got low RHD.

With only 2 RHD it's difficult to say that they're useless... but I can't see much use for 'em.


Anyway, what did you base this on?

tentacle attacks (said limbs are almost definitely not capable of tool use, by the way)

There's not much to support this assertion, is there?


Oh, or are you saying that they don't use their tentacle attacks because they have stubby little fingers on their limbs, and those are obviously superior as manipulators?

So they don't put rings on their tentacles, they wear them on the fingers of their stubby forelimbs.

[Zaq]

Huh. Somehow I’d thought that someone would put forth an argument for the babby ones being +0.

I don’t intend to be such a person, of course. I like having thumbs and I don’t like losing class levels, especially for abilities that don’t scale and don’t open up new avenues of optimization. But we usually get a few defenders of this stuff with low RHD and okayish stats.

[ViperMagnum357]

Mindshredders: LA -0, -0, and of course -0. Far too many problems to fix, and eating the Aberration RHD is just kicking your build while it is already down.

[javcs]

No arguments here, LA -0 all around.

Are these the ones that are described as the animals of the Mind Flayer realm, or am I thinking of something else? AFB right now...

Nah, those are the Illithidae? And are in Lords of Madness.


Concur, -0 for all Mindshredder varieties.

[javcs]

Huh. Somehow I’d thought that someone would put forth an argument for the babby ones being +0.

I don’t intend to be such a person, of course. I like having thumbs and I don’t like losing class levels, especially for abilities that don’t scale and don’t open up new avenues of optimization. But we usually get a few defenders of this stuff with low RHD and okayish stats.

The babies have net +0 stats. +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, -4 Int, -4 Cha.
Oh, and they don't talk.

[Thurbane]

Nah, those are the Illithidae? And are in Lords of Madness.

Ah, yes, I was misremembering. Always get these two lots of beasties mixed up in my memory.

[ExLibrisMortis]

LA -0 for all. The only use I can find for mindshredder larvae is to play them as a really bad melee beatstick, and then when the campaign has hit its highest level, you cocoon for an extra 5 HD (and hopefully some epic feats). Sort of like a dragon's age-cursing, only much worse.

[Celestia]

Those stats on the larvae are pretty decent for several classes, especially wisdom casters, but that's the only positive thing I can say about them, and they're still only "pretty decent." Definitely -0 for all.

[danielxcutter]

LA -0 for all three variants, but I do think there's a bit of optimization potential for the other side of the table - as they're aberrations, they qualify for Rapidstrike and the improved version. Lots of Wisdom drain fun, especially if they decide to do touch attacks instead of regular attacks. Or really, just normal Rapidstrike fun.

Speaking of which, Zenthal are mentioned to advance by class level... which class? The book doesn't say... what caster class would work?

[Zaq]

The babies have net +0 stats. +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, -4 Int, -4 Cha.
Oh, and they don't talk.

Yeah. Okayish stats. They don’t have anything at 2 (read: -8) or whatever that bring the average below 0. We’ve seen examples to the contrary.

[Aniikinis]

Not worth reviewing too in depth imo. -0 for the lot of them, though the larva almost hits +0. Almost.

[liquidformat]

the -0 is strong in these ones....

[GreatWyrmGold]

The strengths of humanoid form include hands, opposable thumbs, and being able to (nominally) peaceably interact with the dominant Material Plane civilizations without the various issues associated with openly being a "monster".
Plus, it's a lot easier to utilize the gear of humanoid opponents.

I'm pretty sure the ability in question makes you an obvious half-person, half-critter. But the other perks make the ability to wild shape into human form worth considering.

Yet Another Funky Aberration: this time with pseudo-mindsight and a wacky life cycle, not to mention a weird name.

They do bad stuff to minds, and "mind flayer" was already taken. Whaddya want, some weird proper noun that nobody'll remember? I'm glad they decided not to give it a name like—

Zenthal

—well never mind. Seriously, "zenthal"? That sounds like a generic fantasy name for a generic fantasy thing. In fact, a quick Google search reveals two other generic fantasy things with that name (a world and a WoW character)...on the first page.

(said limbs are almost definitely not capable of tool use, by the way)

Thanks for trying to head that debate off.

There's not much to support this assertion, is there?
Oh, or are you saying that they don't use their tentacle attacks because they have stubby little fingers on their limbs, and those are obviously superior as manipulators?

Shame it didn't work, though.
(Also, there is something to support the assertion. Look at the picture. Look at how thick the tentacles are, and how they don't taper down to a more dextrous-looking point the way that e.g. octopus tentacles do. Speaking of which, they don't even seem to have a good gripping surface; it's all smooth and convex. And thicker than any non-custom-made tool handle, for that matter.)

So they don't put rings on their tentacles, they wear them on the fingers of their stubby forelimbs.

Dude, he didn't even mention rings. In what world are rings defined as tools?

Speaking of which, Zenthal are mentioned to advance by class level... which class? The book doesn't say... what caster class would work?

That's normal. You see, intelligent creatures can advance in any class they qualify for, just like core races, because the writers are trying to at least pretend they consider intelligent monsters to be people on par with said races.

[Celestia]

—well never mind. Seriously, "zenthal"? That sounds like a generic fantasy name for a generic fantasy thing. In fact, a quick Google search reveals two other generic fantasy things with that name (a world and a WoW character)...on the first page.

Sounds more like an antidepressant drug to me.

[Nifft]

Sounds more like an antidepressant drug to me.

Zenthal™ the pill with Omm-ph.

Ask your doctor if enlightenment is right for you.

Warning: side effects may include empathy, dharmarhea, and internal peace. If reincarnation persists for more than 4 cycles, consult your guru.

[Zaq]

Sounds more like an antidepressant drug to me.

And since basically all prescription drug names (especially psychiatric ones) are plausible Pokémon names, now we're talking about Pokémon. I'm okay with "Zenthal" being a Pokémon. I'm getting like a Dark/Ground vibe, maybe? Or inexplicably Ice, for some reason. Possibly a legendary, but not necessarily.

[Covenant12]

The baby ones aren't totally hopeless at +0, just limited and fairly underpowered. Then you look at aberration hd and its a firm -0. Others are quite a bit worse.

-0 for all three for short version.

[Inevitability]

Mivilorn

Because between hell hounds, howlers, yeth hounds, and death dogs there weren't quite enough supernatural evil canines.

Also, these beasties are terrible. 24 RHD wouldn't be great even if it was Outsider, but it's Magical Beast instead of that. Stats are high, but not high compared to what a typical Epic creature gives. One Bite (4d6 with 19-20 crit range and some slight acid) which is probably best used for a Mouthpick weapon. SR 17 is hardly relevant at the levels where these monsters are meant to be faced, let alone ECL 24.

A problem is that this bite is specifically required for Improved Grab and Charging Bite (swallow whole by any other name), which means that those can't be used while using a weapon. It's possible to get around that issue, but the abilities themselves aren't great at level 24.

The only redeeming factor here is the free action breath weapon, which I suppose could be interesting if combined with metabreath feats. Maybe.

-0 LA: outclassed in basically every way by something else.

Elite Demon War Mount

Six more RHD? Sure, why not. The only thing worth noting is that it's now proficient with armor. -0 here as well.

[unseenmage]

Minus zero all around. These things are even bad at being bad monsters.

[javcs]

Minus zero all around. These things are even bad at being bad monsters.

To be fair, the base Mivilorn is CR 11. It's nowhere near as bad at that level. Relatively speaking.

And the war mount version trades -2 Dex for +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Wis. And is CR 16.



They're possibly useful as some sort of minion, maybe as a higher level mount type critter, but they are firmly in the LA -0 range as PCs.

[ExLibrisMortis]

They're possibly useful as some sort of minion, maybe as a higher level mount type critter, but they are firmly in the LA -0 range as PCs.

Absolutely, for those mount abilities that run off of CR instead of HD, these are pretty good, especially if you can psyref the epic feats to suit your build.

For PCs, a clear -0 for both.