The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[Hackulator]

I think the splinterwaif is kind of hard to judge. People are saying it shouldn't be +3 because it's not the equivalent of a 5th level character and that might be correct, if it threw down with a level 5 character it should die. However, as it gains HD that difference becomes less significant. While a Splinterwaif might die to a level 5 Rogue, a Splinterwaif with 10 class levels and its insane stats could probably fight a level 15 rogue. I'm leaning towards +3 because 30 points of stats on top of other useful abilities is a lot.

[ExLibrisMortis]

[...] a Splinterwaif with 10 class levels and its insane stats could probably fight a level 15 rogue.

I don't think so. A level 15 rogue is going to have five more levels in Assassin/Unseen Seer, and that means 4th-level spells, including greater invisibility and true seeing (Advanced Learning, from the urban ranger list). If it's a moderately high-OP rogue, it'll be polymorphed into something with equal or better physical stats, too.


Splinterwaives are really good for sneaky gishes, with the high mental score adjustments and enough skills/SA to qualify for Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster straight out of the box. Like the Spellwarped template before, I don't think we should compare it to a straight rogue, but rather to a rogue/beguiler/unseen seer, a rogue/assassin/unseen seer, or a trickster spellthief. Unlike the Spellwarped template, I think the splinterwaif holds up at LA +2, even compared to those t3-t2 builds. Hence: LA +2 for the splinterwaif, LA +0 for the knave.

[Thurbane]

• 2 RHD: Fey, not terrible, not great
• 50 ft move, 50 ft climb: nice
• +2 Natural AC: meh
• 2 claws, or ranged attack: not bad
• Dex +10, Con +2, Int +8, Wis +4, Cha +6 (net +30!): nice
• Decent racial skill list for first 2 HD; +10 racial bonus to hide is nice
• Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats: pretty solid bonus feats all in all
• Call brambles: extra external attack 1/round - not to be sneezed at
• Sneak attack of a 3rd level rogue
• Transformation: making dead enemies difficult to raise is nice fluff, but of limited practical application
• Camouflage: +10 circumstance bonus to hide, which stacks with it's existing racial bonus - solid. Also gives concealment until you move - nice; good for defence and setting up a sneak attack.
• DR 5/silver: decent at lower levels, becoming negligible at mid levels
• SR 7: virtually useless (looking at knave though, one could argue SR = HD +5)
• Superior woodland stride: meh

Looking at this thing next to a level 2 Rogue, I would call it outright better. But by how much?

I'm voting LA +2 for the context of this thread (would be at least +3 at my own table).

Knave: more of the same, at the cost of 4 class levels. LA +0 (almost LA -0, but not quite).

[Dimers]

splinterwaifs (splinterwaives?) have DR 5/silver (curiously enough, that's silver and not cold iron).

Maybe they're around iron so much while in towns, they've evolved an adaptation to it?

Three assumptions I see here: it has typical humanoid body slots, it can use its claws as hands, and only RHD contribute to sneak attack progression (it's not specified). If that's true, I'd call the splinterwaif +2. If all HD add to sneak attack, that's enough to bump it up to +3 for me. I'd certainly be willing to play with 3 LA at mid or high levels. Either way, +0 for the knave.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Furthermore, splinterwaifs (splinterwaives?) have DR 5/silver (curiously enough, that's silver and not cold iron).

If D&D was even remotely consistent with its lore, I'd be checking other "urban fey". If cold iron hurts nature-fey and chaotic outsiders, while silver hurts urban-fey and lawful outsiders, it could be that cold iron dissipates the wild magic permeating nature and chaos while silver shatters the more orderly magic permeating civilization and lawful beings. That kinda clashes with lycanthropes being vulnerable to silver, but it wouldn't be hard to change that to "silver or cold iron" and chalk it up to their status as liminal beings.

The splinterwaif's special abilities are worth mentioning too. Call Bramble lets it create a bramble with the stats of a medium animate object as a standard action: it's not great, but it might be worth using at low levels sometime.

It's situationally useful at higher levels, too. They're useful as temporary flankers and/or distractions in combat, improvised ladders (before everyone can fly), and probably useful for guarding things. For instance, if you need to leave your wagons in the wilderness while you spend a few weeks on an airship or something, it's nice to have a plant you can put next to it to guard it. (No joke, this came up in a D&D game once for me. We got a few animated plants as a quest reward, came across an airship we needed to pick up some miscellaneous plot-relevant artifacts, and left the plants with the wagon.)

+2 on child murder plant. Its always use for stealth class at plus 1. That is too good. I am afb but since camo grants concealment, what is the wording/action type, cause thats at will HIPS which is also very good to have.

It's a full-round action; good for an ambush, or if you need to hide from guards or something, but not useful in combat. Especially since the text doesn't mention anything about being to hide if you otherwise couldn't, and implies that you only get concealment after hiding.

Also i assume based on the upgraded version (which is +0 at best) that the SR scales with HD? That is pretty nice.

That seems to be a general rule for creatures with spell resistance...in the sense that Wizards did that with reasonable consistency but never set down any rule making it so.

While it takes a standard action to activate, the Splinterwaif can keep it active and attacking every turn as a free action, which was never errata'd to Swift.

I'm pretty sure it's not intended to be Swift. Don't summoned creatures act on your turn for free? Seems like the same logic here.

Isn't it weird that urban areas end up having these super-deadly creatures? Between these and house cats, how do commoners survive?

Same way they survive in rural areas, where a different variety of super-deadly creatures live: They're only common in the immediate vicinity of PCs. The Planar Archmages Society is trying to figure out how to reduce PC presence to the point that such monsters no longer spawn without letting the monsters already present rampage across the Material Plane, but their efforts aren't bearing much fruit.

[danielxcutter]

It's situationally useful at higher levels, too. They're useful as temporary flankers and/or distractions in combat, improvised ladders (before everyone can fly), and probably useful for guarding things. For instance, if you need to leave your wagons in the wilderness while you spend a few weeks on an airship or something, it's nice to have a plant you can put next to it to guard it. (No joke, this came up in a D&D game once for me. We got a few animated plants as a quest reward, came across an airship we needed to pick up some miscellaneous plot-relevant artifacts, and left the plants with the wagon.)

Did the plants keep your stuff safe until you got back?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Did the plants keep your stuff safe until you got back?

Yeah. They were mostly there to deter any wild animals or hermits who might come across the wagon, and they were plenty good at that.

[ViperMagnum357]

I'm pretty sure it's intended to be Swift. Don't summoned creatures act on your turn for free? Seems like the same logic here.

That possibly might have been RAI, but the book was printed with Swift Actions as part of the game; it even has a sidebar on page 207 detailing their rules. The entry says free action, and the only changes to the Splinterwaif via the Errata was correcting the hide bonuses for both versions, which are incorrect in the statblock. By RAW, and probable RAI, it is a free action, which makes it fairly useful.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That possibly might have been RAI...

I missed a "not," fixing now. (That's why I compared it to a summoned creature not needing a Swift action.)

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... what kind(s) of animated object special ability would the bramble have?

[Thurbane]

Hmm... what kind(s) of animated object special ability would the bramble have?

I'd say it would qualify for Constrict.

[Covenant12]

After some thought, going with consensus on Splinterwaif of +2, and +0 for knave. Base could be argued for +3, but I think that makes in unplayable squishy and behind at low levels, which this thread is designed to avoid. Knave could be argued for +1, but if we are looking more at rogue with good prestige classes it would fall behind. T4 balance point knave is solidly +1.

Both are on a good chassis. Lose BAB but very high Dex and free weapon finesse, with a sneak attack friendly ranged attack. Keep the skills and sneak attack, some tankiness, and impressive mobility at low levels for that dex. If you can prep brambles from stealth, its a free action to control and that's quite solid. In no campaign will all combats begin with a surprise round for PC's, though.

I'm kind of pretending sneak attack doesn't work as a strict RAW, or splinterwaif/rogue could get absurd sneak attack. There are a couple fey that spellcasting has the same issue. I go with sanity over RAW for these monsters-as-PC's.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd say it would qualify for Constrict.

Because the book specifically says it gets Constrict?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Isn't it weird that urban areas end up having these super-deadly creatures? Between these and house cats, how do commoners survive?

That's why commoners domesticate cats, to protect them from other urban monsters!

[danielxcutter]

Hey, we're getting close to the page limit.

[Thurbane]

Because the book specifically says it gets Constrict?

Oh hello... I was beginning to think you had me on block, hadn't seen one of your always enjoyable replies for a while.



Yeah, that's what I get for trying to post between taking calls at work and not checking the book.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Oh hello... I was beginning to think you had me on block, hadn't seen one of your always enjoyable replies for a while.

I'll take it. It's better than what some people remember me for.

[ViperMagnum357]

I'm kind of pretending sneak attack doesn't work as a strict RAW, or splinterwaif/rogue could get absurd sneak attack. There are a couple fey that spellcasting has the same issue. I go with sanity over RAW for these monsters-as-PC's.

By Raw, the Splinterwaif gets 2d6 Sneak Attack, plus 1d6 extra Sneak Attack at their 4th HD and 6th HD, for a total of 4d6 Sneak Attack via racial bonuses.

While this could be RAI to increase Sneak Attack by 1d6 every 2 HD, there is also a RAI argument that it is supposed to be capped at 4d6 at 6 HD, as RAW; the wording says 'a Splinterwaif with 4 or 5 Hit Dice deals an extra 3d6 points of damage with a successful Sneak Attack, while a Splinterwaif with 6 Hit Dice deals an extra 4d6 points of damage with a successful Sneak Attack.' The phrasing, specifying 6 HD rather than '6 or 7 HD' suggests a cap on the racial ability, with no other indication the ability scales past that.

[javcs]

By Raw, the Splinterwaif gets 2d6 Sneak Attack, plus 1d6 extra Sneak Attack at their 4th HD and 6th HD, for a total of 4d6 Sneak Attack via racial bonuses.

While this could be RAI to increase Sneak Attack by 1d6 every 2 HD, there is also a RAI argument that it is supposed to be capped at 4d6 at 6 HD, as RAW; the wording says 'a Splinterwaif with 4 or 5 Hit Dice deals an extra 3d6 points of damage with a successful Sneak Attack, while a Splinterwaif with 6 Hit Dice deals an extra 4d6 points of damage with a successful Sneak Attack.' The phrasing, specifying 6 HD rather than '6 or 7 HD' suggests a cap on the racial ability, with no other indication the ability scales past that.

There's also the RAI argument that the sneak attack should increase only for Racial HD, not HD gained through class levels.

[Inevitability]

New thread is up! Please don't post any more in this one!