The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[Caelestion]

And the fact that the Greek roots involved didn't use prepositions, you mean?

[Inevitability]

Night Twist

15 RHD: so I'm kind of expecting this to be crap already. Let's see about that.

Aside from the plant HD, the twist has a considerable amount of strength, some natural armor, 10 ft. movement, DR 10/slashing, fire vulnerability, and three 2d8 slams (which the book has the audacity to call 'powerful').

The special abilities are a mixed bag. Death Curse is basically useless because by the time it has effect you're not playing a night twist anymore (the effect itself is pretty cool, though). Unholy Grace is a good ability that's only made better by +10 racial charisma.

Despair Song is quite interesting, being a large-range Crushing Despair effect that also forces affected creatures to move closer. Sadly, it's kind of limited by apparently not sparing allies, being limited in when it can be used, and not preventing affected foes from just attacking you once they've gotten to you.

Finally there's Wind Blast (free-action all-around Gust of Wind) which seems to have some utility in preventing medium creatures from approaching you, at least. Anything bigger than that can completely ignore the effect, though.

SLAs are okay. 3/day Deeper Darkness, Entangle, Blight, Fear, and Phantasmal Killer aren't the worst of spells, though there are a lot of creatures immune to all but the first two.

In the end, the night twist simply doesn't have enough features to make up for its large number of RHD. -0 LA, with a very slight tendency to +0.

[Aniikinis]

I wish this was good. I'd love to play a dirgesinger bard with this thing, but the RHD just doesn't let you do much at all even with the abilities granted. -0 but it had potential.

[danielxcutter]

...Why do I not see people mention Rapidstrike more often? I mean, doesn't help with a Night Twist(at least for a PC), but hey, more attacks.

[Zaq]

I agree with the “cool monster, poor PC” verdict. 15 RHD without racial casting just isn’t gonna do it.

...Why do I not see people mention Rapidstrike more often? I mean, doesn't help with a Night Twist(at least for a PC), but hey, more attacks.

Look up the old “King of Smack” build (and its offshoots).

[Covenant12]

Kinda thinking I'm going to conclude -0, but there is potential here.

CR 12, RHD 15, caster level 10 isn't good. Anything with SR means this thing is a beatstick only, and will need work to be effective at that. Entangle is effective, but that's a 1st level spell (but a very good one) in a 15th level party.

Large with 20' innate reach, can afford a fly item to ignore 10' move speed, boost Cha a bit and it has impressive AC, hps, and saves. (Yes, I'm aware "I'll be the last to die!" does not a T3 make.)

Could dip barbarian and crusader for pounce, thicket of blades, stand still or knockdown, mage slayer. Eww, combat reflexes with base 6 dex. Rapidstrike could help dps but with so few features feats are precious.

Sorry I think its a bit short. Would do fine in T4 party as the beatstick, and isn't unplayable at +0 for T3 but isn't really there. Staying -0, but I'll listen to people who do better at optimizing it than I can.

[javcs]

Concur, -0 that with a little more could make it to +0.

Far more interesting as a monster than as a PC.

[Nifft]

With fewer HD, those abilities could be really interesting.

But I can't see many ways to contribute in a T3 party at level 16+.

Verdict: LA -0, give me a smaller Dusktwist with 6 RHD please.

[ViperMagnum357]

The Night Twist is LA -0, but is a lot closer than you might expect from 15 Plant RHD. The Natural AC is 1 for 1 to RHD, and the net abilities are net +58, averaging out to slightly less than 4 per RHD, what I consider acceptable. The 10 ft base speed is mostly irrelevant at the point where you would have even a single class level, and Unholy Grace cures a lot of defensive ills. SLAs are mediocre but usable, and the DR is weak but still a net gain. I think people are underestimating the strength of the free action Gust of Wind: sure it cannot affect Large or bigger opponents, but this makes it impossible for medium or smaller opponents to approach you without magical aid from any direction, including flight; for a sphere/hemisphere 240 feet across, that you can maintain indefinitely. If you cannot find a use for that kind of battlefield control at least some of the time, you should be playing a different game.

As for the Despair Song: errata changes my opinion quite a bit, so I think it is a rather weak bonus most critters pick up by 10 RHD. Nothing of particular import there.

I am inclined to mostly ignore the Despair Song in combat terms, since by the time you are playing an ECL 16+ Night Twist with class levels most CR appropriate opponents are likely to have immunities or a combination of saves, resists and magical aid to make it a footnote in direct combat. I stand by LA -0, but not nearly as weak as it appears at first glance-changing the RHD to Outsider or Dragon alone might be sufficient to put this into LA +0. It only has a couple of standouts, but they are worth a proper appraisal.

[GreatWyrmGold]

... and three 2d8 slams (which the book has the audacity to call 'powerful').

A single blow deals more damage than a greatsword, a mule's kick, or falling off the roof of a two-story building. It can unleash one of these blows every other second. By the standards of non-adventurers, that's friggin' powerful!
Shame that it's being compared to adventurers.

[Blue Jay]

As for the Despair Song: really not sure how to rate it, because it is a low grade magical WMD: once per night, scattering a powerful compulsion across a 5 mile radius per HD of the Night Twist is a little much.

My copy says the radius is 50 ft per HD.

----

I'm going to toe the line and say LA -0 for the night twist.

[ViperMagnum357]

My copy says the radius is 50 ft per HD.

----

I'm going to toe the line and say LA -0 for the night twist.

My printing is August 2004, and the ability clearly states a radius of five miles per HD of the Night Twist. What printing are you reading?

[zergling.exe]

My printing is August 2004, and the ability clearly states a radius of five miles per HD of the Night Twist. What printing are you reading?

Errata changes it to 50 ft per HD:

Pages 110–111: Night Twist
Remove “Survival +17” from the Skills line of the stat
block.
Also, the range of the night twist’s despair song ability
is 50 feet per HD, not 5 miles per HD.
Changes to the stat block for the ancient night twist:
Advancement: 26–48 HD (Huge)
In the Combat section of the ancient night twist, delete
the sentence: It summons plants to its aid if faced with
superior numbers. The ancient night twist does not have
the ability to summon plants.

[ViperMagnum357]

Errata changes it to 50 ft per HD:

Right just checked the errata-I forgot they actually did fix some things. In that case, I will remove my objection. Still LA -0 either way.

[Remuko]

...Why do I not see people mention Rapidstrike more often? I mean, doesn't help with a Night Twist(at least for a PC), but hey, more attacks.

for me personally, its because i always forget things besides dragons can take it lol but i double checked and quite a few types can, neat.

[Thurbane]

Putting aside the RHD (for a moment), this is a pretty solid monster. Decent ability scores, plant immunities, OK-ish special attacks, a handful of SLAs, Cha to saves and AC.

The 15 RHD is the killer through. 5 class level before epic. Your team mates are throwing around 8th level spells.

Less HD, I could see LA +0 (or higher, depending how many RHD), but as is, LA -0 from me.

[unseenmage]

Putting aside the RHD (for a moment), this is a pretty solid monster. Decent ability scores, plant immunities, OK-ish special attacks, a handful of SLAs, Cha to saves and AC.

The 15 RHD is the killer through. 5 class level before epic. Your team mates are throwing around 8th level spells.

Less HD, I could see LA +0 (or higher, depending how many RHD), but as is, LA -0 from me.

I concur, a solid -0.

[liquidformat]

-0 for this guy, though I don't think it is too far from being +0

[GreatWyrmGold]

for me personally, its because i always forget things besides dragons can take it lol but i double checked and quite a few types can, neat.

Why is that feat type-restricted, anyways? And what's with the types chosen? You have the big "animal-shaped magic thing" types (dragons, magical beasts, some aberrations), plus plant and elemental...which are both "natural" types? But why not animal type, since they're animal-shaped? Why not fey, since they're "natural"? Why can mind flayers take Rapidstrike, but not any monstrous humanoids?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Why is that feat type-restricted, anyways? And what's with the types chosen? You have the big "animal-shaped magic thing" types (dragons, magical beasts, some aberrations), plus plant and elemental...which are both "natural" types? But why not animal type, since they're animal-shaped? Why not fey, since they're "natural"? Why can mind flayers take Rapidstrike, but not any monstrous humanoids?

I suspect it was to make it unavailable to PCs so they eliminated all likely PC-able types. Its up for debate if they succeeded.

[Lans]

Putting aside the RHD (for a moment), this is a pretty solid monster. Decent ability scores, plant immunities, OK-ish special attacks, a handful of SLAs, Cha to saves and AC.

The 15 RHD is the killer through. 5 class level before epic. Your team mates are throwing around 8th level spells.

Less HD, I could see LA +0 (or higher, depending how many RHD), but as is, LA -0 from me.

Your party might not be casting 8th level spells, they could be binders, warlocks, psychic warriors and initiators.

I think it compares well enough to them that it could be called a +0

[javcs]

Why is that feat type-restricted, anyways? And what's with the types chosen? You have the big "animal-shaped magic thing" types (dragons, magical beasts, some aberrations), plus plant and elemental...which are both "natural" types? But why not animal type, since they're animal-shaped? Why not fey, since they're "natural"? Why can mind flayers take Rapidstrike, but not any monstrous humanoids?

I can think of no reason that it is, and IMO, it shouldn't be.

On the other hand, I normally just houserule that natural attacks get iteratives.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I suspect it was to make it unavailable to PCs so they eliminated all likely PC-able types. Its up for debate if they succeeded.

Aren't there at least a couple of feats, prestige classes, etc which give PCs dragon type? And none which give them, say, the animal type?
(And isn't that sort of a stupid reason to add in type restrictions?)

[Nifft]

for me personally, its because i always forget things besides dragons can take it lol but i double checked and quite a few types can, neat.

Aberrations are the big one in my experience, since there are some solid Aberration PC races.

[Celestia]

I suspect it was to make it unavailable to PCs so they eliminated all likely PC-able types. Its up for debate if they succeeded.

That doesn't explain why animals can't take it, and there are ways for players to be those types, anyways (kobolds, elans). So, either that wasn't the intent, or they didn't do a good job.

[Nifft]

That doesn't explain why animals can't take it, and there are ways for players to be those types, anyways (kobolds, elans). So, either that wasn't the intent, or they didn't do a good job.

Some of the better PC classes gain the service of animal companions. Players will control a character of the Animal type.

Not sure if that actually was the intent, but the mockery you're attempting seems a bit premature.

[Celestia]

Some of the better PC classes gain the service of animal companions. Players will control a character of the Animal type.

Not sure if that actually was the intent, but the mockery you're attempting seems a bit premature.

Theoretically, the DM decides what feats and such that an animal companion gets since it's an NPC not a PC.

[Nifft]

Theoretically, the DM decides what feats and such that an animal companion gets since it's an NPC not a PC.

That's not always true in practice but that doesn't seem to matter.

The animal would be in the player's hands either way, so how would your theory be relevant?

[Celestia]

That's not always true in practice but that doesn't seem to matter.

The animal would be in the player's hands either way, so how would your theory be relevant?

I'm not sure what your question is. What are you objecting to? I was just stating that players can't be animals, and you seem to have some problem with that?

[Nifft]

I'm not sure what your question is. What are you objecting to? I was just stating that players can't be animals, and you seem to have some problem with that?

Players are humans (so far as we know).

PCs controlled by players include the Animal Companion class feature, which gives players control of Animal type characters.

Your assertion that players never build nor control Animals is incorrect.

There is no particular question here.