The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[MesiDoomstalker]

Aren't there at least a couple of feats, prestige classes, etc which give PCs dragon type? And none which give them, say, the animal type?
(And isn't that sort of a stupid reason to add in type restrictions?)

Absolutely. It's a theory, not a fact but that doesn't change that the designer's were bad at understanding their own game.

That doesn't explain why animals can't take it, and there are ways for players to be those types, anyways (kobolds, elans). So, either that wasn't the intent, or they didn't do a good job.

I mean, we know the designers didn't know their own game.

[Flickerdart]

...Why do I not see people mention Rapidstrike more often? I mean, doesn't help with a Night Twist(at least for a PC), but hey, more attacks.

What are you talking about? Rapidstrike is mentioned in literally every single handbook for a creature type that can take it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Not sure if that actually was the intent, but the mockery you're attempting seems a bit premature.

Doesn't "I don't want to have to balance this feat for PC use" seems even more worthy of mockery?

[Inevitability]

Nycter

Anthropomorphic bats: now with more lore.
...and RHD.

Nycters are small monstrous humanoids with 3 RHD, a weak 1d4 bite, a reasonable fly speed, racial bonuses to dexterity and wisdom (combined with penalties to strength and charisma) and the rather interesting Hunting Cry, an essentially-friendly 30 ft. cone of sonic damage and multiple-round paralysis that can be used every 2d4 rounds.

Obviously, paralysis is a rather useful save-or-lose that can win encounters (especially when it's this big a cone). The creatures that are immune to it are hard to overcome, but a lot of those lose to flight (especially at lower levels when being a nycter is contributing relatively more to the total PC).

In the end, the nycter's rather useful ability, flight, and not-awful chassis are worthy of +0 LA.

[ViperMagnum357]

Nycter: keep in mind that the Hunting Cry is useless once a creature has successfully saved once, putting it on 24 hour recharge for that particular critter. Apart from that, the 40 ft Fly speed is the standout here, specifically because it is (Ex) and has a maneuverability of good, allowing the Nycter to hover. Not very impressive otherwise: Natural AC is a solid +3 on 3 RHD, which could do worse than monstrous humanoid. Net abilities are a terrible +2, the bite attack and darkvision are not selling anyone, average land speed of 20 for small biped, Sonic Vulnerability, and the decent range on Blindsense is not a selling point when it is the easiest type to foil (auditory). +8 racial skill bonuses dependent on blindsense are a mixed bag as well. To finish up with the Hunting Cry: in addition to having no scaling effects and being useless for 24 hourse versus any target that makes its save, remember it is Mind Affecting, Sonic, and Paralysis, so a lot of things will only be taking minor Sonic damage on a failed save. With a Constitution DC on a race with a net +0 for Con, any PC will have normally have scaled out of this by level 7-8.

Overall I am leaning towards a relatively strong LA -0: the Flight covers a lot of deficiencies here, and at least it is not losing any BAB for the 3 RHD. That said, the whole package is underwhelming and not worth a second look if the Flight is not your core concern.

[Thurbane]

I don't think they're quite bad enough for LA -0. You can still hit 9th level spells/maneuvers, and your racial HD come with full BAB, if you're aiming to be a melee type.

Their racial abilities and ability modifierss are underwhelming for 3 RHD, but flight is always nice.

I'd give them a weak LA +0.

[DeTess]

I think this one comes down to how LA -0 is defined. if LA-0 is only for 'definitely unplayable', this one's definitely a weak LA +0.

If LA -0 is for 'under-powered compared to a similar character with T3 class levels instead of RHD' it's a more difficult case. I think they're just about LA +0, but they're on the very edge. I suspect that going into a con-focused class, such as totemist will also allow their hunting cry to remain relevant for longer. For what it's worth, in a T3-4 game that probably wouldn't go that much past level 10 I'd be fine with playing one of these at LA+0. In a game starting at 15+, and going into epic, I'd pick something else.

[liquidformat]

Nycter: keep in mind that the Hunting Cry is useless once a creature has successfully saved once, putting it on 24 hour recharge for that particular critter. Apart from that, the 40 ft Fly speed is the standout here, specifically because it is (Ex) and has a maneuverability of good, allowing the Nycter to hover. Not very impressive otherwise: Natural AC is a solid +3 on 3 RHD, which could do worse than monstrous humanoid. Net abilities are a terrible +2, the bite attack and darkvision are not selling anyone, average land speed of 20 for small biped, Sonic Vulnerability, and the decent range on Blindsense is not a selling point when it is the easiest type to foil (auditory). +8 racial skill bonuses dependent on blindsense are a mixed bag as well. To finish up with the Hunting Cry: in addition to having no scaling effects and being useless for 24 hourse versus any target that makes its save, remember it is Mind Affecting, Sonic, and Paralysis, so a lot of things will only be taking minor Sonic damage on a failed save. With a Constitution DC on a race with a net +0 for Con, any PC will have normally have scaled out of this by level 7-8.

Overall I am leaning towards a relatively strong LA -0: the Flight covers a lot of deficiencies here, and at least it is not losing any BAB for the 3 RHD. That said, the whole package is underwhelming and not worth a second look if the Flight is not your core concern.

This one is a bit goofy, flight, Hunting Cry, and blind sense at level 3-5 are pretty powerful and in this level range I think there is an argument that these guys are board line +1 LA. However, once other character start being able to fly and once everyone has more or less constant access to flight their advantage becomes moot and their disadvantages become more obvious, ie Hunting Cry not scaling and having back subscriptors as well as blind sense shutdown.

Over all though I don't see these guys falling behind other characters, at low levels doing some sort of ranged/bfc cleric gish can be quite powerful, dropping fog cloud and darkness on enemies then taking them out while flying is pretty nasty and later on just focus on bfc. I am fine with +0 LA on these guys, for a ~quarter of their carrier they are questionably +1, for the rest they flow on the +0 spectrum.

[javcs]

I'm going with a -0*.
They aren't really worth their 3 RHD, especially at higher levels, but at low levels, Hunting Cry can mess up an encounter of numerous weak enemies.

Also ... I'm pretty sure Sonic ignores Hardness, so they can (slowly) bypass obstructions/walls/doors and set off and/or destroy traps.

[Nifft]

Flight is good to have. (Good) maneuverability is better than average (literally and figuratively).

Sonic vulnerability is meh. It's an uncommon damage type.

Hunting Cry is unusually good for a racial, across the levels (and in the encounters) where it's relevant. The fact that it's Con-based is a plus -- nobody dumps Con.


Imagine this guy as a Runescarred Berserker, flying right up to an enemy Wizard (ignoring invisibility etc. because Ex flight and blindsense) and eating the Wizard's face with pure Barbarian wrath and an unhealthy dose of anti-magic field.

Verdict: LA +0, clearly playable but you're going to have to work for it.

[Efrate]

I'm going to say plus 0. it's decent lower levels and ex flight with the ability to hover never gets old. at high levels it falls off but tbh anything with rhd does unless it gives class like features that increase with hd, like spells, powers or maneuvers.

[Aniikinis]

Personally +0, but I can see a case being made for +1.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, I was forgetting the hunting cry in my above post. I'm definitely comfortable with LA +0.

[Hish]

+0. Hunting Cry, with increased Con for being a PC, is good for a lot of the game. Fly speed at decent speed and maneuverability is cool, as is Blindsense. Vulnerability to sonic isn't fun, but it's an uncommon damage type. And the chassis is just good enough to not be a downside. Overall, looks decent.

Also, I'm a little late but I really like the new thread title.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think this one comes down to how LA -0 is defined.

It's very simple (and people keep forgetting): LA -0 stands for some undetermined amount of negative LA. That means a creature with LA -0 is considered to be balanced against creatures of an ECL equal to its RHD if it has at least one class level on top of its RHD.

In the case of the nycter, the question is: is a nycter 3/totemist 1 (or barbarian, psychic warrior, swordsage, rogue, ranger, etcetera) balanced against an azurin totemist 3? I think that, especially at low levels, flight is pretty nice, and full base attack with two good saves is nice, but it's not a natural fit for melee despite its base attack, and it's a terrible race when it comes to skills--you only have two class skills, and 2 points/HD, which is going to make it really hard to qualify for the good PrCs, unless you burn feats on class skills. Hunting Cry is neato, but also has the save DC of a first-level spell, and it's usable once per encounter (effectively), which means it's not going to be something you'll build around. It won't retain its usefulness past level 5 or 6.

I'm having a hard time deciding between -0 and +0. At the end of the day, I think you can do enough with flight + base attack to be decent as t5 beatstick, but is it strong enough for t4? Should it really be shooting for t3? I'll go with -0 to be on the safe side, because it looks pretty weak.

[Covenant12]

Hunting cry scales with HD and Con, its what tips the scale for me to +0. In a 4th level party it could easily be DC 14 for a 1/encounter aoe paralysis. With a 2 round minimum. (coup de grace time)

I'm having a hard time seeing what else they excel at, without some work. Full BAB and +4 dex sounds like swordsage, but really far behind on skills. Blindsense and darkvision isn't amazing, but at low levels it matters some. Good maneuverability flight is a very big deal, at least until he somewhat catches up on skill points.

Not amazing at +0, but with 1 class level I think it contributes well enough in a 4th level party.

[TotallyNotEvil]

LA +0. Blindsense + Flight + Darkvision + Paralysis attack plus not bad RHD (d8, full BAB, good Ref and Will) is a decent package.

By the time these fall off, you've got enough class levels to kick ass on their own.

I feel the thread has overused -0 a lot.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think this one comes down to how LA -0 is defined.

Quoted for truth.
I'm inclined to think that the Nycter's tricks, while useful, don't quite add up to what a 3rd-level character can do, and most of them don't scale great (ie, a 2nd-level nycter would probably be behind a 5th-level whatever). So unless you think we're being too harsh on monster PCs and need to reserve -0 for monsters that would be unplayable at +0, I think it earns a (strong) -0.

Also ... I'm pretty sure Sonic ignores Hardness, so they can (slowly) bypass obstructions/walls/doors and set off and/or destroy traps.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't...but even if it did, what kind of wimpy fighters/barbarians can't overcome hardness through sheer damage?

[Random Sanity]

Hunting Cry is handy, but it has the all-too-common issue of "will this actually work when I need it?" You've got entire creature types that can no-sell it without rolling, and no shortage of enemies with better-than-even chances of saving.

Racial Flight is a gem; everybody wants 3d movement from somewhere, and you don't have to spend gold or spell slots on it.

Damage vulnerability, no matter what type, is a serious negative. When it comes to vulnerabilities, rarity of a damage type is only relevant to short campaigns - a monster only has to hit your Achilles' heel once to send you back to the PHB to reroll.

The rest of the racials are more fluff than anything; a grab-bag of minor buffs that do very little.

Overall, I'd say this is worthy of +0.

[Celestia]

If it was 2 RHD, it would definitely be worth a +0, but with that extra one? Probably not. Hunting cry will be nice when it hits, but it probably won't hit often, so all this really has going for it is flight, and I don't think that's worth three levels.

[No brains]

I'm tempted to say +0 because its art shows it as a tool-using humanoid, even with bracers that don't completely clasp around its arms. The stat penalties sort of suck, but the save or lose helps to balance that. Sonic vulnerability does really suck, but there's ways to counter it. Silence can cover your butt if you're really scared.

I also want to give these guys +0 to set them apart from the crappy bat-people, Desmodu. At least a Nycter tries to be bat-like and doesn't have some Munchausen pole-weapon for some reason.

[Nifft]

I'm going with a -0*.
They aren't really worth their 3 RHD, especially at higher levels, but at low levels, Hunting Cry can mess up an encounter of numerous weak enemies.

Also ... I'm pretty sure Sonic ignores Hardness, so they can (slowly) bypass obstructions/walls/doors and set off and/or destroy traps.

As far as I can tell, doing that with Hunting Cry is just a worse version of Baleful Utterance ... except it costs 3 RHD and it can be used less often, instead of being every round from level 1.

Warlocks seem playable (no asterisk), and not even that high-power.

I also want to give these guys +0 to set them apart from the crappy bat-people, Desmodu. At least a Nycter tries to be bat-like and doesn't have some Munchausen pole-weapon for some reason.

Desmondu really are awful.

I hated when WotC seemed to be pushing them.

[Remuko]

I'm going with -0 for basically the same reasons as Celestia said.

[Flickerdart]

-0. The encounter-ending potential of its power is comparable to several classic spells, and quickly peters out.

[No brains]

Desmondu really are awful.

I hated when WotC seemed to be pushing them.

What really sucked about them was that their push was just a consequence of pushing drow, who needed some chaotic good foil. So not only do they not really stand on their own merits, they could actively facilitate the backstory of many more Drizzt clones.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Desmondu really are awful.

I remember thinking that some of their gear was neat, especially the alchemal stuff. And I vaguely remember noticing that they moved faster on all fours, and thinking that touch was kinda interesting and something that probably should have been on other monsters.

[danielxcutter]

What are you talking about? Rapidstrike is mentioned in literally every single handbook for a creature type that can take it.

I mean in this thread.

[Inevitability]

Nycter votes, with the two candidate LAs being +0 and -0! (aka: much ado about nothing).

-0: 7 votes
+0: 10 votes

By considerable majority, the LA shall be changed to +0. Everybody, thank you for voting!

[TiaC]

Yet again, I want to throw together a spreadsheet which lets me quickly calculate (or at least closely estimate) the effects that losing X hit dice of type Y, then use that to figure out how many HD you'd need to chop off of these creatures before they become plausible character choices.

I've always thought that it's problematic to have PCs with HD≠ECL, so I considered a version of this thread that asks how much a monster would need to be advanced or de-advanced to have LA +0. So, for things with positive LA, they would generally get slightly more HD added then their LA, while for things like these massive piles of HD we've seen recently, they would get a pile of HD chopped off.

[No brains]

I've always thought that it's problematic to have PCs with HD≠ECL, so I considered a version of this thread that asks how much a monster would need to be advanced or de-advanced to have LA +0. So, for things with positive LA, they would generally get slightly more HD added then their LA, while for things like these massive piles of HD we've seen recently, they would get a pile of HD chopped off.

Wouldn't this pigeonhole creatures into a role based on their creature type? What if I wanted to make a deceptively tanky fey or a glass cannon magical beast? Theoretically this could be accomplished by messing with Constitution, but sometimes more HD really help a monster be better at what it is intended to do... especially if being a PC is outside that intent.