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2018-09-25, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
The title says it all (almost)...
I have a good character (lvl 8 cleric) who is suddenly in an aquatic campaign. Can the celestial template be substituted for the fiendish template on the legal Summon Monster lists?Last edited by esm3x; 2018-09-25 at 03:34 PM. Reason: typo
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2018-09-25, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2017
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- ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
Not by RAW, but that's a fair enough trade for your DM to houserule in.
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2018-10-17, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
Can you cite the reference where this is outlined?
I've looked through the PH DMG and MM but didn't see this explicitly stated. I would like to know as I DM another campaign and this has come up, there.
TIA!There are 10 types of people in this world: those that know binary and those that don't
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2018-10-17, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster spells?
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2018-10-17 at 02:58 PM.
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2018-10-17, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
I may be mistaken, but I THINK the OP is asking if you can change the Celestial/Fiendish descriptors in front of some of the monsters. So,can he summon a celestial octopus instead of a fiendish one.
Any yes, a question for your DM, but I'd allow it."That's a horrible idea! What time?"
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2018-10-17, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Terra Australis
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
BY RAW you can summon what it says on the lists, so no.
I believe Pathfinder does it differently (letting you apply either template to the base creatures).
So RAW, in 3.5 no you can't summon a Celestial Boar instead of a Fiendish Boar with Summon Monster III; but as other's have said, it's an entirely reasonable house-rule.
[edit]
There's a couple of things that can change this:
The Perfect Summons spell (BoED) changes all summoned creatures to Celestial/good-aligned versions.
The Distort Summons spell (BoVD) changes all summoned creatures to Fiendish/evil-aligned versions.
[/edit]Last edited by Thurbane; 2018-10-17 at 04:38 PM.
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2018-10-17, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
You could dip Malconvoker, although that just lets you summon evil stuff with Summon Monster as a Good Cleric.
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2018-10-18, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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2018-10-19, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
I'm sorry, but it looks like RAW says "No!":
Originally Posted by Planar HandbookEach creature you conjure with any summon spell gains the good subtype, and creatures that are not already good in alignment become good.
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2018-10-19, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2012
Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
Which reads to me like the RAW says "Yes, but..."
If the OP is a Good cleric, then he would not be able to swap the templates (because he could not summon Evil creatures...) If he is "good" (but Neutral) he could.
One possible solution there is Purify Summoning [exalted] feat (Dragon #353):Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains the good subtype, and creatures that are not already good in alignment become good.Remember, posting links to TVTropes is Vile.
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2018-10-19, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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2018-10-19, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
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2018-10-19, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-10-19, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-10-19, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
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2018-10-19, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-10-19, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Terra Australis
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
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2018-10-19, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2018-10-19, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
The main reason Planar Handbook gave against it, was that the spells become "too good for their level".
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2018-10-19, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
...huh?
I didn't realize "no, sorry, you're an evil cleric, so you can only have a dire rat, not a badger" was supposed to be an actual balancing measure.
Especially since arcane spellcasters can summon opposed-alignment ones freely.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2018-10-19, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
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2018-10-19, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-10-19, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
Well, I may be senile, and this may be a 2e thing / 2e thinking, but I thought that which were fiendish and which were celestial was based on their perception by the world's inhabitants. Thus, I thought that there just weren't celestial octopi available to summon to worlds that maligned the 8-legged aquatic creatures.
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2018-10-19, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
I think that's lycanthropes. Werewolves are Evil because wolves eat sheep, and little piggies, and little red riding hoods (even though they don't unless they're driven insane by disease or last-ditch starvation), so of course they're evil mean meanie-pants (without the pants).
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2018-10-19 at 08:38 PM.
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2018-10-19, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-10-19, 11:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-10-20, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-10-20, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Terra Australis
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Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?
I think he was postulating specifically about the Summon Monster lists: why we get Fiendish Rats and Celestial Lions.
Animals seen to be sneaky or evil appear on the lists as fiendish; while those traditionally seen to be brave or noble appear as celestial.
Of course their plane of origin determines this mechanically...Last edited by Thurbane; 2018-10-20 at 04:57 PM. Reason: typos
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2018-10-20, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-10-21, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: Can celestial be swapped for fiendish using Summon Monster speels?